600 Electric/battery trains and 600 hybrid buses for Ireland

bk

The NTA have just put out the following two tenders:

- 600 Electric and Battery/Electric Bimode trains to replace the existing DART fleet and to massively expand DART as part of the 2bn DART Expansion plan.

- 600 Hybrid Double Deckers city buses for the likes of DB/GA in Dublin, BE in Cork, etc.

Brilliant news

They have also said that they expect full BEV double deckers to become commercially available in 5 years time and that seems to be the end goal for our buses.

unkel

Why not buy full EV buses now? That's what they do in London. Why do we always need to be last at the races?

Calahonda52

bk wrote: »

The NTA have just put out the following two tenders:

- 600 Electric and Battery/Electric Bimode trains to replace the existing DART fleet and to massively expand DART as part of the 2bn DART Expansion plan.

- 600 Hybrid Double Deckers city buses for the likes of DB/GA in Dublin, BE in Cork, etc.

Brilliant news

They have also said that they expect full BEV double deckers to become commercially available in 5 years time and that seems to be the end goal for our buses.

have the NBU been consulted... you remember the DDB's with the rear doors issue.

bk

unkel wrote: »

Why not buy full EV buses now? That's what they do in London. Why do we always need to be last at the races?

These are double deckers. London currently has 0 full EV double deckers. London had 3 on trial from BYD/ADL, but non running at the moment. London has 3000 or so hybrid buses, which we are buying now too.

The BYD EV deckers had issues, they put the batteries in the back of the lower deck. This meant the buses can take only 80 passengers.

It is important to remember that in terms of greenhouse gases, even a hybrid bus produces much less pollution then an EV car on a per passenger basis.

Also, the quality of Chinese built buses still has a long with to go to catch up with European manufacturers.

Calahonda52 wrote: »

have the NBU been consulted... you remember the DDB's with the rear doors issue.

I'd say they will be pretty happy. Lots of drivers weren't happy with Euro 6 Diesels, since they felt lightly built and underpowered. Of course this was because they were in order to meet the strict emissions standards. Hybrids can help with this, they tend to have very good acceleration given the electric motor. Drivers in London seem to like them very much.

unkel

Thanks for the finer points, bk. It just feels such a shame to "invest" all that tax payers money in a tech that's neither here nor there. Of course a hybrid city bus is better than a just diesel one, and I understand from your point that the EV double deckers aren't quite there yet. But they might be next year. Just after we spent a lot of money on yesterday's tech that will have to do us for what, 15-20 years to come?

Any tech specs on the hybrid double deckers? Battery size, range on EV only? Charging speeds?

Brera

unkel wrote: »

Thanks for the finer points, bk. It just feels such a shame to "invest" all that tax payers money in a tech that's neither here nor there. Of course a hybrid city bus is better than a just diesel one, and I understand from your point that the EV double deckers aren't quite there yet. But they might be next year. Just after we spent a lot of money on yesterday's tech that will have to do us for what, 15-20 years to come?

Any tech specs on the hybrid double deckers? Battery size, range on EV only? Charging speeds?

I would hope they would have the sense to maybe look at leasing the hybrid fleet ?

That way they could run them for a few years and then fully move across to an EV fleet once the double deckers become available

bk

unkel wrote: »

Thanks for the finer points, bk. It just feels such a shame to "invest" all that tax payers money in a tech that's neither here nor there. Of course a hybrid city bus is better than a just diesel one, and I understand from your point that the EV double deckers aren't quite there yet. But they might be next year. Just after we spent a lot of money on yesterday's tech that will have to do us for what, 15-20 years to come?

12 years. They keep a pretty young fleet nowadays, they want them reliable and not have breakdowns. Breakdowns look bad and discourages people away from public transport.

They replace the fleet at a rate of 100 or so buses a year. The issue is that they can't just wait for the EV deckers to mature. They need to buy 100 or so new buses every year to keep the fleet young, so at the moment the option is either new Euro 6 Diesels or these Hybird's.

The nice thing about this tender, is that it is optional. It is 600 buses over 5 years, so probably about 120 per year. But I believe they have included the option to stop purchasing more after 2.5 years if they want. This sounds like 2.5 years from now, they will look to see how the full EV's are developing and could switch to buying them if they mature faster then expected.

I totally agree with your frustration and I'm the same, I can't wait until they go full EV, but operating a fleet of buses is more complicated then it seems.

Just think about how much mileage a bus does, how hard it is worked, how many years in service, how much weight it carries and how expensive they are. It then makes sense why reliability and build quality are so important and understandable why they are a little conservative.

Ideally you'd want to see full EV deckers running around London for 2 or 3 years or so before you know if they are really reliable.

unkel wrote: »

Any tech specs on the hybrid double deckers? Battery size, range on EV only? Charging speeds?

DB are currently trialling three buses that you'd expect are the most likely candidates:
- Volvo B5LHC with Wright Bodywork
- ADL Enviro 400 MMC hybrids
- Wrightbus StreetDeck HEV 96

Brera wrote: »

I would hope they would have the sense to maybe look at leasing the hybrid fleet ?

That way they could run them for a few years and then fully move across to an EV fleet once the double deckers become available

They will be bought. There is pretty much no leasing market for city buses like these as there is not much after market for them.

Johnboy1951

bk wrote:

They replace the fleet at a rate of 100 or so buses a year.

How old are the buses they replace (average)?

Are they offered on the general market or sold somewhere specific?

bk

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

How old are the buses they replace (average)?

Are they offered on the general market or sold somewhere specific?

Around 12 years, they sell off the oldest buses as new ones arrive. This has been consistently happening at a rate of roughly 100 new buses every year for the past 20 years.

Though in the past two years they have increased the fleet by 10%, so it is roughly 120 buses a year now.

Old buses would be sold off in the general second hand bus market. You can make an offer here if you like

https://www.dublinbus.distilledads.ie/

They often end up in places like tour buses, private bus hire (e.g. school trips), private hire in the UK as rail replacements, etc. Basically much lighter work.

Brera

https://electrek.co/2019/05/29/hyundai-double-decker-electric-bus/

Seems like an interesting enough proposition but the numbers of passengers on the upper deck are quite low

unkel

That's what I mean

Hyundai have a proven track record over the last 3 years with full EVs that have an excellent reputation for efficiency and reliability. Hyundai is the #1 most reliable make of cars sold in the UK. And now they have an EV bus that no doubt will be excellent. But we will have to make do with diesel hybrids in our city centres for the next 20 years instead of waiting another year or so and get the right (zero emissions) buses

Johnboy1951

unkel wrote: »

That's what I mean

Hyundai have a proven track record over the last 3 years with full EVs that have an excellent reputation for efficiency and reliability. Hyundai is the #1 most reliable make of cars sold in the UK. And now they have an EV bus that no doubt will be excellent. But we will have to make do with diesel hybrids in our city centres for the next 20 years instead of waiting another year or so and get the right (zero emissions) buses

If they change ~10% of the fleet every year will not the opportunity to get BEVs occur much sooner?

If the full BEVs become available they can change the next 10% to those next year and every year after.

As it is only 10% that is being committed to, as I understand it, that seems prudent ...... as what they are replacing now are past their useful life.

ted1

unkel wrote: »

That's what I mean

Hyundai have a proven track record over the last 3 years with full EVs that have an excellent reputation for efficiency and reliability. Hyundai is the #1 most reliable make of cars sold in the UK. And now they have an EV bus that no doubt will be excellent. But we will have to make do with diesel hybrids in our city centres for the next 20 years instead of waiting another year or so and get the right (zero emissions) buses

70 seats is well below standard. Also if it’s just announced what kind of availability does it have ? It’s unproven and what’s the price like?

salmocab

All Electric busses will have big initial costs as I would doubt the current bus depots will be capable of having the charging capacity for 100s of busses, I would think they will need to move depots out to past the m50 to get access to the 110kv network along with the land they need. This will lead to union issues and the need to change some shift patterns to accommodate extra dead running of the busses.

ted1

salmocab wrote: »

All Electric busses will have big initial costs as I would doubt the current bus depots will be capable of having the charging capacity for 100s of busses, I would think they will need to move depots out to past the m50 to get access to the 110kv network along with the land they need. This will lead to union issues and the need to change some shift patterns to accommodate extra dead running of the busses.

Don’t think they need access to the 110KV network. A couple of MW could easily connect to distribution level

salmocab

ted1 wrote: »

Don’t think they need access to the 110KV network. A couple of MW could easily connect to distribution level

Yeah I was probably exaggerating that bit but I still think they will need to move as the charging infrastructure that needs to be built may be beyond what can be built in the city depots.
Not sure how many busses are in each depot but if you had 200 busses charging I wonder what sort of draw that would need. The saver is of course they would want that at low demand times which would suit the provider.

Hotblack Desiato

They should be moving out of inner city depots anyway and realising the property value and releasing them for high density housing.

ted1

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

They should be moving out of inner city depots anyway and realising the property value and releasing them for high density housing.

There’s a pay off currently with regards diesel costs to move busses from regional depots to the correct routes. Also providing replacement busses causes delays. And then there’s a while HR issue relocating staff and losing productivity by having busses located away from the routes.

I’ve seen places with bus depots underground and apartments etc built on top of them.

bk

Brera wrote: »

https://electrek.co/2019/05/29/hyundai-double-decker-electric-bus/

Seems like an interesting enough proposition but the numbers of passengers on the upper deck are quite low

That article got it the wrong way round, it is 59 seats upstairs, 11 downstairs.

unkel wrote: »

That's what I mean

Hyundai have a proven track record over the last 3 years with full EVs that have an excellent reputation for efficiency and reliability. Hyundai is the #1 most reliable make of cars sold in the UK. And now they have an EV bus that no doubt will be excellent. But we will have to make do with diesel hybrids in our city centres for the next 20 years instead of waiting another year or so and get the right (zero emissions) buses

While this looks great, it also shows why battery deckers aren't ready.

It is a big tri-axle bus and it fits just 70 people!

By comparison Dublin Buses big tri-axles fit 120 people and their smaller regular dual-axle buses 90+

These battery decker buses have big compromises in terms of passenger capacity. Given how packed our buses already are, losing passenger space is just not an option.

BTW We will only be stuck with older buses for a max of 12 years.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

They should be moving out of inner city depots anyway and realising the property value and releasing them for high density housing.

The newer depots are all being built outside the city. But you still need some depots in the city, to quickly respond to break downs, etc.

Also having your depots outside the city leads to lots of deadheading. Where drivers have to drive empty out of service buses to and from far away depots.

I don't think people realise that most of the fleet, roughly 60% spends most of the day parked in the depots. Only 40% or so operate all day, the rest only come out for a few hours during the morning and evening peaks.

Which BTW is great for EV buses. They can top-up their battery while back in the depot.

Hotblack Desiato

ted1 wrote: »

There’s a pay if currently with regards diesel costs to move busses from regional depots to the correct routes. Also providing replacement busses causes delays. And then there’s a while HR issue relocating staff and losing productivity by having busses located away from the routes.

Regional? You wouldn't call the likes of Harristown regional.

I’ve seen places with bus depots underground and apartments etc built on top of them.

Would be a lot more viable with electric than with smelly, noisy diesels.

bk wrote: »

It is a big tri-axle bus and it fits just 70 people!

70 seats. How many standing?

unkel

bk wrote: »

By comparison Dublin Buses big tri-axles fit 120 people

Really? I thought they had no more than about 80 seats, but I could be completely wrong

GM228

unkel wrote: »

Really? I thought they had no more than about 80 seats, but I could be completely wrong

They have 57 seats upstairs, 34 seats downstairs, 1 wheelchair space and up to 27 standees. Room for 119 passengers.

bk

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

70 seats. How many standing?

It doesn't say, often that depends on local law, speed, insurance, etc.

But to give you an idea, the DB VT class have 91 seated and total 125.

And the latest Euro 6 Diesel Triaxles Enviro 500's recently launched in the UK have 100 seated (129 total):

https://www.alexander-dennis.com/media/news/2018/november/100-seats-for-lothian-in-new-three-axle-adl-enviro400xlb-on-volvo-chassis/

I just found a video of this EV bus here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjnLBIFQtbo

It looks like the battery takes up half the lower deck, where people stand (you can't stand upstairs) and it seems very cramped downstairs, with very little standing room. I'd be surprised if you could get 90 people on this.

To be honest it looks more like a mid distance commuting coach like BE operate into Dublin, then a city bus.

Great to see these being worked on, but it also shows that there is a long way to go for battery deckers.

GM228

bk wrote: »

But to give you an idea, the DB VT class have 91 seated and total 125.

Pretty certain the VTs are plated for 119 people.

bk

GM228 wrote: »

Pretty certain the VTs are plated for 119 people.

The first 20 DB bought were 119, the later ones 125:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/dublin-bus-gets-20-new-bigger-buses-1.1288153

ted1

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Regional? You wouldn't call the likes of Harristown regional.




Would be a lot more viable with electric than with smelly, noisy diesels.




70 seats. How many standing?

I’d call Donnybrook and irishtown regional