Bike Vs. Ebike exercise value

sheepers

I recently bought a cheap 2nd hand hybrid to see if I could manage my daily commute by pedal power.

It's not a long commute (2 miles each way), but quite hilly. After a week or so of having to walk some stretches, I finally managed to sit on the saddle for the entire journey both ways. I feel like it's definitely helped my fitness levels, and that's a wonderful added bonus for me.

The bike itself is old and cheap. Now that I'm satisfied I can cycle this commute, I am looking at getting an upgrade. I am especially looking for something to make it possible to continue cycling through the crappy winter weather months. I was thinking going electric, but I really don't want to lose the exercise benefit that I'm getting.

So with winter weather in mind, a short but hilly commute, and a desire to get as much exercise as possible, would a hybrid or an ebike be a better idea?

Invincible

Hybrid
Try something like a Giant Rapid.
Defeats the purpose getting an assisted bicycle.

work

a sh!t bike will just turn you off the cycle so well done. A decent bike will be easy and much better for you.

magicbastarder

a decent e-bike would be a hell of an investment for a 2 mile commute. you seem to be making good progress with a 'normal' bike after a week or two - i suspect it's too early to decide to go with an e-bike, within a month you'll probably be flying it anyway.

T-Maxx

Should you upgrade at all? Sounds like your bike does what it's supposed to do already. Winters are pretty tough on bikes and it'll break your heart to see the effects of it on your new shiny bike. You'll be spending more time cleaning and maintaining your bike than commuting. Get a decent set of mud guards and lights and save your money for a nice good weather bike!

tomasrojo

You might consider a light-ish Dutch-style bike, as they require less maintenance than a hybrid.

This looks pretty good:
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/jul/24/gazelle-van-stael-bike-preview-dutch-observer

If know somebody who knows a bit about bikes, or have a shop you trust, you could ask them what modifications could be made to your current bike to suit you better. Old bikes are often not worth fixing up because they're too far gone into neglect, but yours might be different.

peasant

You can get the same exercise levels on an e-bike, at least on one that has a mid motor with a torque sensor, as these bikes only multiply the force that you put in...no input, no movement.
All that will change is that you will be quite a lot faster uphill...which can only be good in bad weather. (on straights and downhill you'll get over 25 km/h anyway, the assistance cuts off and you'll have to put in the same effort as in a normal bike...slightly more actually because the e-bike is heavier)

I would recommend looking for a second hand e-bike with a mid motor (at the pedals, not in the wheel hubs) ...find a decent one for not too much money and you won't mind getting it manky during the winter.

tomasrojo

peasant wrote: »

You can get the same exercise levels on an e-bike, at least on one that has a mid motor with a torque sensor, as these bikes only multiply the force that you put in

That's not the same exercise level. It's less? The motor is clearly doing some of the work.

(Nothing wrong with that. I presume you mean you'll get a decent amount of exercise regardless?)

ED E

3.2km (we're not savages here) is short enough that I'd nearly walk it for the time at either ends locking, lights etc. Within a month you'd do it on a Dublin Bike with soft tyres.

Keep on truckin.

peasant

No, it's the same level...just less pain and frustration.
If you're working hard on a regular bike on a steep hill you might get just enough movement on so you don't have to get off and push.
Put in the same amount of effort on an e-bike, you can get just as knackered, but you're flying up and it's actually fun.
I would argue, that an e-bike is just more rewarding as a fitness device than a regular bike and might even entice you to cycle more.

Properly fit cyclists on road bikes that regularly cycle 100s of kilometers per weekend are a different story...but your regular Joe Soap will get the same fitness levels out of an e-bike than a normal bike once they are willing to put in the same amount of effort...they just are rewarded with more smiles per revolution.

(it is however possible, on a really ****ty day, to reduce the level of input and still make reasonable progress...something you can't do on a regular bike...there you just have to suffer)

tomasrojo

I have a cargo bike that I carry two children (7 and 9) often cycling uphill, distances often up to about 10km

If I got an Urban Arrow (e-assisted) instead of a bakfiets, you contend that I'd be getting the same amount of exercise?

EDIT: I think I see your argument now. That someone starting off in cycling would get the same amount of exercise, because they'll complete a longish cycle, rather than getting off an walking some of it?

I'm a bit dubious that that's even true, as walking is more exercise than cycling, km for km, let alone e-assisted cycling. Though plenty of people might just give up in frustration on a normal bike, I suppose. There certainly are people who only cycle regularly because they bought an e-bike

The OP should be ok continuing to cycle 3km on a standard bike, unless they really fancy the assist. E-bikes are great; I'm not knocking them.

Large bottle small glass

Sweet Jesus it's 2 miles.

If you were finding that hard going, you need more exercise not less.

Constantly avoiding acute hardship isn't going to do you any good in the long term.

Keep your current bike, get fitter and aim to ride it fixed in 2 months.

peasant

tomasrojo wrote: »

I have a cargo bike that I carry two children (7 and 9) often cycling uphill, distances often up to about 10km

If I got an Urban Arrow (e-assisted) instead of a bakfiets, you contend that I'd be getting the same amount of exercise?

I would argue that you can put the same amount of exercise into it...you'd just get faster uphill.

Just because the bike has a motor doesn't mean that you have to put less effort in....you could, but you don't have to.

To carry your two kids for 10 km takes x amounts of energy and y amount of time. Add a motor and x remaining the same, y gets shorter...I can't see anything wrong with that.

And yes, on days where fitness isn't you main priority (feeling poorly or whatever)...you could do it in the same time with less effort

tomasrojo

peasant wrote: »

To carry your two kids for 10 km takes x amounts of energy and y amount of time. Add a motor and x remaining the same, y gets shorter...I can't see anything wrong with that.

I absolutely agree that there's nothing wrong with that. I think pedelecs and e-assist bikes are great.

However, since by exercise I mean expending energy, using your cardiovascular system and using your muscles, you are definitely getting less exercise if you use a motor to assist you). You might have a different idea of exercise in mind, but by that simple/simplistic defintion you aren't getting as much exercise for the same journey.

If you end up using the e-bike far more than you would a normal bike, that's a different scenario.

ED E

Peasant your logic is wrong I'm afraid.

(sample numbers)
Hybrid: Rider does 150W for 30 mins say at 19KPH
E-Bike: Rider does 150W and motor adds 100W assist(light assist), does 25kph - 22.8 mins.

In the first case the rider has done 150W for 30, in the second 150W for 23 mins. Overall work done (calories burned, fitness earned) is down. The eBike is only equal if the rider does more riding.


eBikes are great to get a person who otherwise couldnt/wouldnt cycle on the road. The OP is not one of them.

sheepers

Large bottle small glass wrote: »

Sweet Jesus it's 2 miles.

If you were finding that hard going, you need more exercise not less.

Constantly avoiding acute hardship isn't going to do you any good in the long term.

Keep your current bike, get fitter and aim to ride it fixed in 2 months.

True enough. I wouldn't be the best exerciser and where I live is quite hilly (Cork), so I'm surprised and happy that I am able to manage the hills now without wanting to drop dead. My commute is only 2 miles but I'm venturing a bit further now on weekends, and would like to go on longer treks eventually because I'm surprised by how much I'm enjoying it. I hadn't been on a bike in 20 years!

I suppose my real concern is that this is all lovely and ideal in the dry weather, but will I need something better to keep this up in the winter. My current bike is an old, beat up Carrera Subway that is probably going to start needing things replaced soon anyway.

Lumen

An ebike for a 3km journey?

WTF.

tomasrojo

sheepers wrote: »

True enough. I wouldn't be the best exerciser and where I live is quite hilly (Cork), so I'm surprised and happy that I am able to manage the hills now without wanting to drop dead. My commute is only 2 miles but I'm venturing a bit further now on weekends, and would like to go on longer treks eventually because I'm surprised by how much I'm enjoying it. I hadn't been on a bike in 20 years!

I suppose my real concern is that this is all lovely and ideal in the dry weather, but will I need something better to keep this up in the winter. My current bike is an old, beat up Carrera Subway that is probably going to start needing things replaced soon anyway.

It looks like a heavy-ish bike for a commuter bike, but that's just me looking at search-engine images,which all have pretty big tyres. I don't know anything about the actual bike.

You could get something pretty decent for on the bike-to-work scheme, if you have a PAYE job.

Ray Palmer

Think people are being a bit unfair. Maybe a small journey but the OP is being realistic on what may deter them from using a bike.
Ebikes and fitness has been studied. The evening out of high burst of energy is deemed a good thing and recommended for people with heart problems for example. They also found people use ebikes more increasing overall activity.
I will say using an ebike makes me safer as I am less likely to take a risk to avoid stopping.

Ferris

My Mum, a pensioner with COPD cycles home up Howth hill on a relatively low powered ebike. If she didn't have one she wouldn't cycle at all - this is the major plus with ebikes - they make cycling accessible.

Another advantage is not arriving at work/home a sweaty mess which might be important for some.

OP, might I suggest you rent an ebike and see how it suits you. You wouldn't need an expensive ebike to do the commute you describe. Also a hub drive would be better if you don't want to sweat. Caveat is if you are averaging over ~20kph and regularly over 25kph you won't see a benefit by going electric.

Lumen

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Maybe a small journey but the OP is being realistic on what may deter them from using a bike.

According to the OP what is deterring them is winter, but you're not going to stay drier on an e-bike, in fact if there's a season that's most suitable for e-biking it's summer as you're more likely to sweat.

edit: actually there is the point that e-bikes are more likely to come with lights, but if you can be bothered to charge a bike you can be bothered to charge a light, and in any case mudguards and a dynamo setup on a regular bike would provide completely hassle-free travel as you then don't need to charge anything, or get wet from road splash.

Ray Palmer

Lumen>
Have you used an ebike for any length of time? I have and I can tell you cycling an ebike in bad weather is a lot nicer than a regular bike. Wind being a factor in Ireland an ebike helps a lot with that. So the OP has a very valid point and as it is them highlighting possible barriers it isn't really up to you to dismiss them.
Then there is simply being cold and cycling being an issue which is again a lot easier with an ebike.
Some people have got to realise cyclists who do so for commuting purposes are not bother about the sports side others are.

Thargor

If you are getting into cycling and increasing your distances OP forget the hybrid and go straight to a decent roadbike, theres no comparison.

magicbastarder

the OP expressed

a desire to get as much exercise as possible

if you just take that on its own, it's a fairly trivial answer that a normal bike is best.
and i use the word 'trivial' deliberately, the answer is an 'all other things being equal' one. if the OP is more likely to subsequently go for spins in the country at the weekend on an e-bike, it's not so straightforward.

@OP - can you take a photo of the gears on the bike? you mentioned having had to walk on stretches on some of the hillier sections when you first started; it's possible the bike you have is not suited for hills, so it's possible easier gearing is an answer (which would involve changing the bike almost certainly).

Ferris

W.R.T weather, I find that the ebike encourages me to go out in conditions that I would not attempt on the roadbike. I wouldn't have given up the car for the roadbike but I did for the ebike. I have cycled 16k klms in the past 18months on the ebike, given up the car and haven't missed a day for work due to weather, been out in all weather, even the storms when we were told to stay indoors.

To be fair there are folks out on conventional bikes also in poor weather, they are just better at applying rule#5 than me ;-)

Lumen

Ray Palmer wrote: »

the OP has a very valid point and as it is them highlighting possible barriers it isn't really up to you to dismiss them.

It really isn't up to you to instruct me which opinions I can express.

My opinion is that buying an e-bike for a 3km cycle is ludicrous. It's a 10 minute journey.

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Then there is simply being cold and cycling being an issue which is again a lot easier with an ebike.

If it's cold then you'd want to pedal harder, no?

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Some people have got to realise cyclists who do so for commuting purposes are not bother about the sports side others are.

This isn't a sports vs commuter cycling thing.

Sheepers, buy an e-bike if you want, but all the things that make winter cycling less fun (wet, dark, and cold) are going to be just the same. An e-bike is a solution to several problems, but a 3km winter commute isn't one of them.

Ray Palmer

Lumen>
I take it you haven't actually used an ebike given what you are saying. It appears you have an opinion but no experience.
On a short run cycle you dont get a chance to warm up so an ebike is perfect. Weather conditions like wind are much easier with an ebike than a normal bike. Yes you will still get wet but I dont think anybody expected anything different.
Ebikes are perfect for those who want to make their cycle commute easier. Weather concerns are greatly reduced on an ebike.
Ignore those without any experience as anytime ebikes are mentioned there is always the naysayers who will say just use a regular bike and stop complaining.

Lumen

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Ebikes are perfect for those who want to make their cycle commute easier.

Eh...

sheepers wrote:

So with winter weather in mind, a short but hilly commute, and a desire to get as much exercise as possible, would a hybrid or an ebike be a better idea?

Ray Palmer

Lumen> Already answered and explained the benefits so no need to be confused just pay attention.

07Lapierre

3k Commute? Sounds like the OP needs a fully loaded BMW X5 or Audi Q7!


OP, keep up the good work...keep cycling and if you really want to spend money, buy a lighter bike!

peasant

I'm just going to leave this here without further discussion.

https://www.ebay.ie/itm/36V-250W-VLCD5-LCD-TSDZ2-Tongsheng-Mid-Centre-E-Bike-Drive-Motor-Kit-Pedelec-EU/264309197043?hash=item3d8a0e48f3:g:gCkAAOSwkbVcto5D

This motor is fitted (from factory, didn't do it myself) on my heavy trekking bike (see here: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=104348191) and I'm very happy with it.

Could be a very cost effective way to build your own personalised e-bike, a bike that will suit mucky weather commuting and the odd tour / shopping trip/ whatever you like.

...just in case you can't find the perfect non-motorised bike

cubix

As someone who would have cycled a lot 20yrs ago and would have been lost with out the use of a bike, ebikes have their uses and I can only hope as prices continue to fall as already mentioned in various posts it will open the minds of people. E-bikes are and will most likely always be in a separate category when compared to the purist of cycling and rightly so as this type of cycling is all about you & the bike. I truly believe if more people embraced the idea of using e-bikes around cities and not getting in the car for all their journeys there would be a lot less angry people. Some people cannot be helped but that's part of life, its a numbers game.

We live in a world that is faster paced and more connected than 30/40yrs ago and this has brought its own issues like people feeling more on edge and complaining of being stressed. I don't know the figures but I am sure GP's have seen huge increases in these areas. My kids often ask what was it like with no internet and reply great. I say to them I would love the tech we have today but the simpler pace of when I was in my 20's

I was given the below Trek bike today on demo loan and like a lot of e-bike first timers amazed at the fun it puts back into cycling. If you liked/like cycling I don't believe e-biking will be a fad and after a couple of weeks it will be gathering dust. I feel it will be the opposite and give you the incentive to get out more.

There must be some bean counter out there working for the Gov who could explain to them if the took the pain now and invested in more dedicated cycle routes and took a fast track approach (not like the BB roll out) it would save them 10's of millions each year on the health budget. Not just from peoples general fitness but there over all well being.

https://www.trekbikes.com/ie/en_IE/bikes/hybrid-bikes/electric-hybrid-bikes/conduit/conduit/p/17044/?colorCode=black

Duckjob

cubix wrote: »

There must be some bean counter out there working for the Gov who could explain to them if the took the pain now and invested in more dedicated cycle routes and took a fast track approach (not like the BB roll out) it would save them 10's of millions each year on the health budget. Not just from peoples general fitness but there over all well being.

+1

I really think the government needs to open its eyes to the benefit of unlocking utility cycling for the masses, and not just in the cities.

For example. In Dublin I'm talking about commuters from areas like Malahide, Swords, Finglas, Blanchardstown, Clondalkin, Tallaght, Shankill- basically around the M50 and even a bit beyond in some cases.

If, through good infrastructure people could do those journeys safely, and at an average speed of >20kph , many would do a door to door commute in <1hr, (and in some cases signifantly less) time than they currently spend on the bus or in the car.

Basically follow Dutch style policies, like giving bike paths priority through roundabouts, green wave on traffic lights on arterials coming into the city etc etc, in order to achieve higher average travel speeds to open up more areas.

EBikes could certainly play their part to help those for which a journey of 15-20km might just seem a little too daunting.

tomasrojo

Yeah, e-bikes have extraordinary potential really.

I mean so many journeys are under 3km anyway:
https://irishcycle.com/2013/10/10/over-50-of-trips-a-day-in-ireland-are-less-than-3km/

Or under 8km:
https://irishcycle.com/2015/10/23/forget-electric-cars-or-public-transport-19th-century-technology-best-bet-to-reduce-transport-emissions-in-ireland/

But basically the vast majority of journeys are a single person going on a modest journey with a modest load. If they don't want to get into any kind of sweat, e-bikes are perfect for the vast majority of journeys, and the user as a bonus gets some valuable light exercise, apparently without even realising it.

Lumen

For short flattish journeys there isn't much objective benefit to an ebike due to exponential wind drag, as a regular bike can be cycled at the same effort but perhaps 10kph slower.

An 8km 30kph cycle takes 16mins, at 20kph it takes 24 mins. If you can turn pedals without breaking a sweat you can do 20kph.

So I seriously doubt ebikes will dent the wall of reasons people choose not to cycle, but who knows.

tomasrojo

I don't know; I break a bit of a sweat cycling for an hour, even at about 20km/h on a normal bike. And that journey would be easier and a bit shorter with a pedelec, I assume. Do that three or so times a day and it's a pretty big difference. (I see your point about 8km though.)

Pedelecs do seem to be selling briskly in quite a few places in Europe, and pretty well in Ireland. They seem to be mostly allowing older cyclists to continue and also consuming what was previously the step-through motorbike market.

Lumen

tomasrojo wrote: »

I don't know; I break a bit of a sweat cycling for an hour, even at about 20km/h on a normal bike. And that journey would be easier and a bit shorter with a pedelec, I assume. Do that three or so times a day and it's a pretty big difference. (I see your point about 8km though.)

I break a sweat walking for an hour, but I've never heard of someone citing getting sweaty as a reason not to walk to work.

tomasrojo

I remember (perhaps incorrectly) Ian Walker tweeting about a 20km walk for pleasure he'd undertaken, and somebody had suggested to him it had been a waste, as he could have done it as a charity walk. People I know seem to feel an hour's walk pretty much falls into that category too.

The Bishop Basher

sheepers wrote: »

I was thinking going electric, but I really don't want to lose the exercise benefit that I'm getting.

One of the benefits of an ebike is that you get to decide how hard you work. You can adjust the level of motor assist as you go. You can also turn the motor off completely in which case you’ll be getting more exercise then on a standard push bike.

I bought an ebike for leisure a few months ago and I love it. Sometimes I arrive home in a sweat, sometimes I don’t but the option is there to get a decent workout should you want it.

tomasrojo

I guess my take is that most people won't walk more than a few km to work (there are exceptions obviously), and some people will cycle that instead, because they know it's easier, but a surprising number of people seem to think cycling is harder than walking or running. I'm not sure why they think it would exist as a transport option were this true, but it does seem to be a thing. E.g.
https://twitter.com/bikesnobnyc/status/1059477165266345984

Maybe pedelecs won't turn the dial that much (they are more expensive and more attractive to thieves after all), but journeys that are faster and easier than unassisted cycling while still requiring no paperwork and allowing easy parking must have quite a lot of potential to win people over.

Lumen

Yeah, note also I did use the word "objectively".

By harnessing subjective motivations you can convince people to do anything.

What else explains triathlon?

tomasrojo

Lumen wrote: »

By harnessing subjective motivations you can convince people to do anything.

What else explains triathlon?

l-)

cletus

So, I'm neither a triathlete, nor a cyclist(at least in the competitive sense). Could somebody explain the issues one group have with the other?

Lumen

cletus wrote: »

So, I'm neither a triathlete, nor a cyclist(at least in the competitive sense). Could somebody explain the issues one group have with the other?

Apart from the ridiculousness of a sport which includes competitive costume changes, most triathletes really aren't that interested in bicycle racing, except as a means to add to their journey of tedious aspirational self-improvement.

Whereas competitive cycling is a pursuit where the participants have come to terms with the futility of it all (a futility grounded in the fact that as a competitive cyclist you're either losing or cheating) and decided to do it anyway, because it's exciting and beautiful and full of surprises.

cletus

Lumen wrote: »

Apart from the ridiculousness of a sport which includes competitive costume changes, most triathletes really aren't that interested in bicycle racing, except as a means to add to their journey of tedious aspirational self-improvement.

Whereas competitive cycling is a pursuit where the participants have come to terms with the futility of it all (a futility grounded in the fact that as a competitive cyclist you're either losing or cheating) and decided to do it anyway, because it's exciting and beautiful and full of surprises.

Sooo, you're a triathlete??

Large bottle small glass

cletus wrote: »

So, I'm neither a triathlete, nor a cyclist(at least in the competitive sense). Could somebody explain the issues one group have with the other?

Same here, cyclist but not competitive.

I'm pretty relaxed about "The rules" cyclist have around dress code but there had to be some line in the sand.

That and I'd rather be reasonable at one sport that sh1te at three while looking ridiculous

I've actually been avoiding driving through east cork for last month such are the number of lads in sporty wife beaters riding horrible bikes

cubix

As Duckjob touched on having the right bike infrastructure around cities/ towns as per our European neighbours may even be enough to get people out on their bikes in big numbers on a daily basis. Due to the volume of cars and lack of road space some drivers do not take kindly to cyclist.

I would suggest to everyone if you get the chance to try an E-bike, do it and make your own mind up if its for you. A decent e-bike will set you back about €2K compared to a decent non e-bike commuter €500

CramCycle

sheepers wrote: »

True enough. I wouldn't be the best exerciser and where I live is quite hilly (Cork), so I'm surprised and happy that I am able to manage the hills now without wanting to drop dead. My commute is only 2 miles but I'm venturing a bit further now on weekends, and would like to go on longer treks eventually because I'm surprised by how much I'm enjoying it. I hadn't been on a bike in 20 years!

I suppose my real concern is that this is all lovely and ideal in the dry weather, but will I need something better to keep this up in the winter. My current bike is an old, beat up Carrera Subway that is probably going to start needing things replaced soon anyway.

Your enjoying it, you have pretty much nailed it then. Save the money for the ebike and either use it to keep your current bike in really good nick with regular servicing, or buy a decent road bike and use thalf the price of the ebike to keep that in good nick. Ebikes are great, huge benefits and positives for lots of people, I just don't think you will see any benefit compared to just going the way your going, which seems to be going well so far..