Paying VAT on a new Motorbike/Scooter?

PWEI

I've ordered a brand new Vespa from a dealer in Northern Ireland.
The dealer isn't' charging me the UK Vat and advised that I must pay the ROI VAT as its a new scooter.
Can anybody advise me how I do that?
Thanks.

CJhaughey

When you VRT it it will be included in the price.

stesaurus

Although if the ride down was 6000km and took you 6 months then you'd probably not have to pay it!

fdevine

When I bought a bike in Belfast I had to bring it to the VRT office as they had to physically see it. VAT & VRT are paid together to Revenue & you'll get your reg. number. Registration cert. issues within a couple of days

Revenue Commissioners Dublin Vehicle Registration Offices, Revenue Commissioners, Furry Park, Santry (01)8579800

PWEI

fdevine wrote: »

When I bought a bike in Belfast I had to bring it to the VRT office as they had to physically see it. VAT & VRT are paid together to Revenue & you'll get your reg. number. Registration cert. issues within a couple of days

Revenue Commissioners Dublin Vehicle Registration Offices, Revenue Commissioners, Furry Park, Santry (01)8579800

But how can you bring it to the VRT office if you don't have a Registration number?


Thanks for all the replies.

CJhaughey

PWEI wrote: »

But how can you bring it to the VRT office if you don't have a Registration number?


Thanks for all the replies.

They will issue you a registration number when you give them the V5 document.

jeepcj

PWEI wrote: »

But how can you bring it to the VRT office if you don't have a Registration number?


Thanks for all the replies.

you'll have to get a van

Del2005

PWEI wrote: »

But how can you bring it to the VRT office if you don't have a Registration number?


Thanks for all the replies.

The NI dealer won't let you leave unless you have a van or trailer. Use this to bring it to your NCTS center. Make an appointment for the day you pick up the bike.

thos

Will the bike be registered in the UK already, ie; has a UK V5 and registration plate?

How is the UK dealer not charging you VAT? Are you providing a VAT number to them?

The 'proper' process is pay the UK VAT, at VRT time you pay the Irish VAT, and then claim back the UK VAT. Horrendous, but that's how it's supposed to be.

You'll need to present your receipt and invoice to VRT office, which will show 0 VAT, and you will need to fill in the VAT Number of the dealer on the VRT PD2 form. That may raise some questions for you and the dealer. Make sure they are properly aware.
https://www.revenue.ie/en/importing-vehicles-duty-free-allowances/documents/vrt/form-vrtvpd2.pdf

Del2005

thos wrote: »

Will the bike be registered in the UK already, ie; has a UK V5 and registration plate?

How is the UK dealer not charging you VAT? Are you providing a VAT number to them?

The 'proper' process is pay the UK VAT, at VRT time you pay the Irish VAT, and then claim back the UK VAT. Horrendous, but that's how it's supposed to be.

You'll need to present your receipt and invoice to VRT office, which will show 0 VAT, and you will need to fill in the VAT Number of the dealer on the VRT PD2 form. That may raise some questions for you and the dealer. Make sure they are properly aware.
https://www.revenue.ie/en/importing-vehicles-duty-free-allowances/documents/vrt/form-vrtvpd2.pdf

There's a form you fill in when buying a new vehicle for export to another EU country to avoid paying VAT in the export country. You only pay VAT once in the EU and since new vehicles have to pay VAT on registration better to not pay in the UK, though you can reclaim it if you do pay it. But with the farce that is Brexit I'd not be leaving any money in the UK incase they crash out and you can't reclaim the VAT.

PWEI

Del2005 wrote: »

The NI dealer won't let you leave unless you have a van or trailer. Use this to bring it to your NCTS center. Make an appointment for the day you pick up the bike.

The NI dealer is delivering it to me so I don't need to hire a van.


The Dealer received a certificate of conformity from Piaggio to allow registration in Ireland.

Del2005

PWEI wrote: »

The NI dealer is delivering it to me so I don't need to hire a van.

You'll need one to get it to the NCT Centre.

stesaurus

thos wrote: »

Will the bike be registered in the UK already, ie; has a UK V5 and registration plate?

How is the UK dealer not charging you VAT? Are you providing a VAT number to them?

The 'proper' process is pay the UK VAT, at VRT time you pay the Irish VAT, and then claim back the UK VAT. Horrendous, but that's how it's supposed to be.

You'll need to present your receipt and invoice to VRT office, which will show 0 VAT, and you will need to fill in the VAT Number of the dealer on the VRT PD2 form. That may raise some questions for you and the dealer. Make sure they are properly aware.
https://www.revenue.ie/en/importing-vehicles-duty-free-allowances/documents/vrt/form-vrtvpd2.pdf

That's not the 'proper' process. If it's a new means of transport, either less than 6 months old/6000km, then it's sold less VAT. You use the VAT411 form to do that. I've done it twice now, with cars but same process.

Rafal

stesaurus wrote: »

That's not the 'proper' process. If it's a new means of transport, either less than 6 months old/6000km, then it's sold less VAT. You use the VAT411 form to do that. I've done it twice now, with cars but same process.

I can confirm this is the case with the UK VAT411 form, as I have been through the process—although, at the very end, I decided not to go ahead and I bought the bike in Ireland. Had I proceeded, the bike would have never been registered in the UK. No UK number plates means having to arrange van transport straight to the Revenue/NCTS office, to tax (VRT *and* VAT) and register here on an Irish reg number.

You seem to have been dealing with a knowledgeable dealer in NI. Not all UK dealers are aware of the VAT411 form, and some do not like doing it, which leaves you with the other, far more complicated option of paying VAT there, reclaiming, and paying again here. VAT411 is a better way to do it, and it is designed for personal purchases, not companies (there is also a VAT411A). There are other ways to use the VAT411 procedure, but they are more complex. See https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/vat-new-means-of-transport-removal-from-the-uk-to-another-member-state-of-the-ec-vat411

stesaurus wrote: »

Although if the ride down was 6000km and took you 6 months then you'd probably not have to pay it!

You could not ride it down without a UK licence plate. To have the plate you would have to have paid the UK VAT anyway. The value of bringing it 6 months later or with 6000km is that you would not need to pay Irish VAT *again*. You would have to pay Irish VRT anyway.

thos

stesaurus wrote: »

That's not the 'proper' process. If it's a new means of transport, either less than 6 months old/6000km, then it's sold less VAT. You use the VAT411 form to do that. I've done it twice now, with cars but same process.

OK, so VAT411 says "Use this form to report when a new means of transport is bought or sold in the UK and will be removed to an EU state within 2 months, where the buyer isn’t registered for VAT"

But in the case of 2-6months old / <6000km, the bike could still be registered, so while still liable for VAT here, I don't see how there is an exception for not paying the VAT in the UK - again talking pre-registered bikes here.

I had a few dealers trying to sell me ex-demo bikes, which are VAT'able, they wanted to sell them ex-VAT, but needed a VAT number from me. Two separate dealers in NI.

So, sounds like with VAT411, there is no UK VAT for brand new or <2 months old, but you then pay VAT here.
2-6 months < 6000km, you're stung for VAT here, and sounds like you can't get away from it in UK unless you're VAT registered.
>6 months / >6000k, no issues with paying VAT here, but you're probably getting stung for VAT in UK, unless you've got a VAT number.

Is that it?

stesaurus

thos wrote: »

OK, so VAT411 says "Use this form to report when a new means of transport is bought or sold in the UK and will be removed to an EU state within 2 months, where the buyer isn’t registered for VAT"

But in the case of 2-6months old / <6000km, the bike could still be registered, so while still liable for VAT here, I don't see how there is an exception for not paying the VAT in the UK - again talking pre-registered bikes here.

I had a few dealers trying to sell me ex-demo bikes, which are VAT'able, they wanted to sell them ex-VAT, but needed a VAT number from me. Two separate dealers in NI.

So, sounds like with VAT411, there is no UK VAT for brand new or <2 months old, but you then pay VAT here.
2-6 months < 6000km, you're stung for VAT here, and sounds like you can't get away from it in UK unless you're VAT registered.
>6 months / >6000k, no issues with paying VAT here, but you're probably getting stung for VAT in UK, unless you've got a VAT number.

Is that it?

Nope, VAT411 should be used in all cases of buying a NMT. The problem is a lack of education from dealers and not understanding how to handle it. If you start talking about ex-VAT generally they think you're on the fiddle and don't want to deal with you.

However I've bought 2 cars in the past, both registered on UK plates and having demo mileage and both were sold ex-VAT. So there are some who understand the process.

Rafal

@thos, you got the gist of it, but not quite all of it, I think. VAT and VRT are complex, and I do not pretend to be an expert. Having said that, I think you are might be confusing the concept of a new means of transport (NMT) with the time that has passed from its registration in UK. NMT is explained in UK VAT Notice 728.

You ask:

thos wrote: »

But in the case of 2-6months old / <6000km, the bike could still be registered, so while still liable for VAT here, I don't see how there is an exception for not paying the VAT in the UK - again talking pre-registered bikes here.

I am not sure which “here” you are referring to at the end of the question—that bike could not have been pre-registered in Ireland, so I assume you mean it has been already registered in UK.

If it has been registered in UK for more than 2 months, but less than 6, it can be still considered NMT and VAT411 might apply.—as long, however, as no more than 2 months have passed since its “entry into service” (see section 2.3). This is tricky, because if the bike was used, for example, for a demo ride, it is deemed to have entered into service. VAT411 does not apply if more than 2 months passed since entry into service. In the situation you have described, the bike has been road taxed in UK at its (pre)registration. Unless you could successfully argue with HMRC that it had not entered into service yet—for instance, because it still has zero mileage—the seller has to charge UK VAT on it to the consumer who is buying it—so you are right, there is no way to avoid paying UK VAT if you are a personal buyer in this case.


—as long, however, as no more than 6 months have passed since its “entry into service” (see section 2.3). This may get tricky, because if the bike was used, for example, for a demo ride prior to its registration, it is deemed to have entered into service earlier. VAT411 does not apply if more than 6 months passed since entry into service. Further, if using VAT411 bike has to be removed from UK and taxed in Ireland within 2 months, or UK VAT will become liable. In the situation you have described, the bike has been road taxed in UK at its (pre)registration. As long as you can successfully argue with HMRC that it had not entered into service much earlier—for instance, because it still has low or zero mileage—and you use the VAT411 form, the seller does not have to charge UK VAT on it to the consumer who is buying it. Otherwise, the seller has to charge full UK VAT.

Either way, you can drive it legally, assuming you would find someone to insure it for you for the journey. Once you got to Ireland, you would have to pay Irish VAT—even if UK VAT has already been paid there. You would also have to pay the Irish VRT. You can, afterwards, apply for UK VAT to be refunded, which is a complex procedure, compared to UK VAT411, which allows you to buy it without paying any VAT in UK.

Alternatively, buy a bike in UK that has never been registered there. It does not matter how many months it has been sitting at the dealers—preferably as long as it had not been used for demos on the red dealer plates (so as not to trigger the “entry into service” clause). Even if it is year old, as long as it had no UK registration and no entry into service, it is NMT and you can buy it without paying UK VAT as long as you go the VAT411 route. You could use VAT411 even if it had been registered fewer than 6 months earlier and has less than 6000km on the clock. All of this assumes the dealer wants to cooperate—not all of them do, as they take a risk that if no VAT were subsequently paid in another EU country, HMRC would ask them for it, saddling them with a loss. This is one of the reasons they should want you to have it registered and taxed in Ireland on the day of arrival here.

If it had not been registered in UK, you would not be able to legally ride it (no licence plates etc) and it would have to be delivered, in a van, preferably straight to the Irish Revenue location for VAT and VRT.

All in all, you may find that UK dealers are not too keen on selling bikes without having them registered in UK first. This is because they get considerable registration-linked bonuses, which they would miss out on. That is also another reason why they like to pre-register bikes in UK, not something of an issue in Ireland, with our smaller market and fewer dealer incentives, to the best of my knowledge.

The sweet-spot for VAT411 to apply and to make both the dealer and you happy is to find a bike that had been pre-registered in UK no earlier than 6 months prior to you buying it, has definitely less than 6000km on the clock (should be easy) and no implication that it had entered into service, eg. as a long-term demo bike prior to those 6 months. In that case VAT411 applies, you could legally ride it to Ireland if you insure it—this will be tricky as you may need to temporarily register it in UK with a UK address—and you get to complete all Irish VAT and VRT on the day you get it here, which must be still within the 2 months of its sale to you. Van shipping makes things a little easier. As @stesaurus said, few UK dealers are versed in this.

thos

Interesting stuff. Will have a proper read through this later, thanks!

PWEI

I spoke to the VRT booking line and they advised me that I had to Logon to Revenue.ie and upload the Certificate of Conformity before my appointment. So I scanned the document and tried that but it won't accept a pdf document only xml format. I then converted the document to xml but they won't accept a converted document either and it says if you don't have the original Certificate of Conformity in xml format you have to input the Certificate manualy.
I spent six hours trying to manually input it yesterday but some of the information they are looking for is not on the Certificate.
I'm really at a loss what to do now.
All I want to do is pay the vat and vrt and get the bike on the road.

Wonda-Boy

I recently enquired about buying a new bike in NI (McCallens) I was told that if its for export they will register the bike in Phillip McCallens name and then sell it to me VAT free. So it will have a NI reg plate and be brand new, I will have to pay the VRT and the VAT locally...

It means I am not the 1st registered owner but by his and my calculations I would save €1499 by doing this.

Del2005

PWEI wrote: »

I spoke to the VRT booking line and they advised me that I had to Logon to Revenue.ie and upload the Certificate of Conformity before my appointment. So I scanned the document and tried that but it won't accept a pdf document only xml format. I then converted the document to xml but they won't accept a converted document either and it says if you don't have the original Certificate of Conformity in xml format you have to input the Certificate manualy.
I spent six hours trying to manually input it yesterday but some of the information they are looking for is not on the Certificate.
I'm really at a loss what to do now.
All I want to do is pay the vat and vrt and get the bike on the road.

Wrong thread

Rafal

Wonda-Boy wrote: »

I recently enquired about buying a new bike in NI (McCallens) I was told that if its for export they will register the bike in Phillip McCallens name and then sell it to me VAT free. So it will have a NI reg plate and be brand new, I will have to pay the VRT and the VAT locally...

It means I am not the 1st registered owner but by his and my calculations I would save €1499 by doing this.

I am curious how could it save you money, unless you are getting a better price in NI than here. Irish VAT is higher than UK (23% vs 20%) and so is the VRT. Assuming a similar net selling price, you’d pay more in Ireland’s taxes than in NI. However, if you are getting a good deal there, of course it makes sense, despite the higher taxes.

Watch out for the registration number that you would get in NI. If it comes from the special pool of licence plate VAT-free numbers, which are reserved for VAT411 purposes, you may find it harder to insure it for the trip down. Does not matter if you ship in a van.

Del2005

Rafal wrote: »

I am curious how could it save you money, unless you are getting a better price in NI than here. Irish VAT is higher than UK (23% vs 20%) and so is the VRT. Assuming a similar net selling price, you’d pay more in Ireland’s taxes than in NI. However, if you are getting a good deal there, of course it makes sense, despite the higher taxes.

Watch out for the registration number that you would get in NI. If it comes from the special pool of licence plate VAT-free numbers, which are reserved for VAT411 purposes, you may find it harder to insure it for the trip down. Does not matter if you ship in a van.

You will pay Irish VAT on a new bike, which is <6 months old or <6k km, when you register it here. Its much easier to not pay UK VAT than reclaim it after paying the Irish VAT. VRT is a set amount and with Sterling low its a good time to buy. There's also issues with some Irish distributors.

Though I thought that form 411 means that you can be the 1st owner and not the 2nd.

galwaytt

PWEI wrote: »

I spoke to the VRT booking line and they advised me that I had to Logon to Revenue.ie and upload the Certificate of Conformity before my appointment. So I scanned the document and tried that but it won't accept a pdf document only xml format. I then converted the document to xml but they won't accept a converted document either and it says if you don't have the original Certificate of Conformity in xml format you have to input the Certificate manualy.
I spent six hours trying to manually input it yesterday but some of the information they are looking for is not on the Certificate.
I'm really at a loss what to do now.
All I want to do is pay the vat and vrt and get the bike on the road.

Get the selling dealer to supply you the CoC in xml format.

Del2005

galwaytt wrote: »

Get the selling dealer to supply you the CoC in xml format.

Wrong thread

PWEI

galwaytt wrote: »

Get the selling dealer to supply you the CoC in xml format.

Yes, I got on to the dealer today.
He doesn't have the CoC in xml format but is going to get on to piaggio to try and get one for me.

Hopefully they can supply one as some of the mandatory questions on the manual process are not on the printed CoC that I have.

The system seems to be designed for more larger vehicles and the problem is if you don't have an answer to a mandatory question, you can't save it.

Fireblade77

Call dealer in NI tell him to reg. the bike, he can call you back with new NI reg.number.
Bike will sail through in nct centre, pay vrt and vat.

PWEI

Fireblade77 wrote: »

Call dealer in NI tell him to reg. the bike, he can call you back with new NI reg.number.
Bike will sail through in nct centre, pay vrt and vat.

If I register it in Northern Ireland, I’ll end up paying VAT twice, in the North & VAT in the south.

Rafal

PWEI wrote: »

If I register it in Northern Ireland, I’ll end up paying VAT twice, in the North & VAT in the south.

Not necessarily. If you use VAT411 procedure you *can* have a UK licence number allocated from a VAT-free pool. However, you’re likely to find it harder to insure and drive on that number. Otherwise use VAT411, don’t register in NI and have it shipped in a van to VRT and VAT in Ireland. Read up on VAT411, it can save you a lot of hassle, as long as the dealer wants to take part.

galwaytt

PWEI wrote: »

If I register it in Northern Ireland, I’ll end up paying VAT twice, in the North & VAT in the south.

Nope,as Rafal points out, you can register it in the North and still get it VAT-free if the dealer is prepared to do the legwork and paperwork.

Otherwise you pay UK VAT and, when you register it here and pay the Irish VAT, you get a refund from HMRC of the UK VAT.

Either way, you only ever pay VAT on anything once.

ireland1

Did you get this sorted please and how? I am in the same situation and ready to go mad lol!

PWEI

ireland1 wrote: »

Did you get this sorted please and how? I am in the same situation and ready to go mad lol!

Sorry for the late reply, was away on holidays.
Yes got sorted but no thanks to the Revenue technical Helpdesk. They never called me back.
The day before my VRT appointment I tried to do a manual upload of the Certificate of Conformity again. Only this time I used the xml version of the certificate to find they answers.
I kept saving it on the revenue website & it kept telling me what mandatory questions that still needed to be filled out.
Then I would do a ctrl f in the xml version & look for them. I still had to make up a few answers that I didn’t have.

thos

Hey all,
Following up on this thread, and looking at buying brand new bike in Northern Ireland, from a main dealer.

Asked about using the VAT411 form, and they said Yes ... BUT, they wanted me to pay the VAT, they would register the bike (V5 etc as usual), and after I had paid the VAT & VRT down here, they would refund the original VAT. They were open about the reason, and said it was purely 'ass covering' from their perspective in case the bike never gets registered. They are a main dealer, reckon they've done this loads, I don't see a major problem with it ... but wanted to check here to see what the consensus was?

Just wondering if having a NI/UK registered bike with VRT will make life any easier or more difficult importing it?
I'm assuming it makes it easier - it would be registered so I could insure and drive on the NI plate.
I expect it would be marked as an Imported vehicle, and have the additional owners, but at least no messing with additional delays with CoC certs, insurance gaps or additional transportation costs.

What do you think?

Also, when paying the VAT down south, I've heard you only paying the additional difference between VAT rates ie; UK 20% vs ROI 23%, means only paying 3% additional VAT? Is that the case? I was originally under the impression you pay the full amount, and get the full refund from original state.

Hotblack Desiato

You can't legally ride on a UK plate unless you're within the window to get it VRTed. If Customs catch you they will seize the bike. I'm presuming your plan here is to rack up the 6 months / 6000km and then VRT it.

thos

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

You can't legally ride on a UK plate unless you're within the window to get it VRTed. If Customs catch you they will seize the bike. I'm presuming your plan here is to rack up the 6 months / 6000km and then VRT it.

Nope, plan is to do VAT411 by the book and register it down here, pay the VAT & VRT. Not trying to do anything dodgy.

Not even talking about the 'export plates' they have available. This would be a fully registered UK/NI bike, full V5 etc.

Esel

Afaik you have to pay the full VAT amount here first.

galwaytt

You have to pay the full 23% VAT here first. Once you have your VLC and VAT receipt, provide that to the NI dealer and he'll refund you the UK VAT.

You can't ride it on NI plates except to the VRT office and then you have 3 days to put RoI plates on it.

Check insurance : some are getting v sticky about non RoI regs - remember they are obliged to tell Revenue of all non RoI vehicles they've covered. ....

galwaytt

oh, and, post 31st October it might get a whole lot worse.....Excise as well....

thos

galwaytt wrote: »

You have to pay the full 23% VAT here first. Once you have your VLC and VAT receipt, provide that to the NI dealer and he'll refund you the UK VAT.

You can't ride it on NI plates except to the VRT office and then you have 3 days to put RoI plates on it.

Check insurance : some are getting v sticky about non RoI regs - remember they are obliged to tell Revenue of all non RoI vehicles they've covered. ....

Great thanks, have you done it?

Bought my last bike up North, insurer covered it for 5 weeks in total, due to VRT delays. What makes you say I couldn’t ride it if it’s got a full NI plate and it had VRT appt booked?

Hotblack Desiato

galwaytt wrote: »

oh, and, post 31st October it might get a whole lot worse.....Excise as well....

I don't imagine the UK will be ponying up VAT refunds after the 31st.

galwaytt

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

I don't imagine the UK will be ponying up VAT refunds after the 31st.

Indeed: it's conceivable you could pay UK VAT at 20% and then Irish VAT at 23% as well............

galwaytt

thos wrote: »

Great thanks, have you done it?

Bought my last bike up North, insurer covered it for 5 weeks in total, due to VRT delays. What makes you say I couldn’t ride it if it’s got a full NI plate and it had VRT appt booked?

I have, but there was no delay locally.

What I'm saying is once your insured and it's booked on for it's VRT inspection, it's fine : delays on their side are out of your control.

Just don't do it the other way 'round, where you ride around for ages before even getting a booking. That's where you're expose.