Kittens in my yard

metaoblivia

Last week, a stray cat and I mutually frightened each other on the walkway leading to my front door. There are a few strays in the neighborhood, but I had never seen this one before.

Well, a few days ago I saw her again - with her 4 newborn kittens in a nest in my front yard. They're tucked away in a corner that's overgrown with grass. I put out a carrier with a blanket and have been putting out food that mama has been eating. The kittens' eyes were still closed as of yesterday. 3 brown tabbies and 1 grey tabby.

I live in California and it's our dry season - I'm not worried about rain. I would like to TNR mama, but she's very skittish and still nursing them. I'd also like to either have animal services come pick them up or - even more ideally - adopt them out directly to friends/colleagues. Either option requires me to socialize them at some point, which I'm fine with (animal services here euthanizes any animals who are not socialized). I'm thinking of getting a large crate to house them in when they reach 4-5 weeks and socialize them until they hit about 7-8 weeks.

I'd bring them in now, but I'm leaving for a 5 day trip next week and live alone. I also don't want to separate them from their mama until they've weaned, and I don't think she'd appreciate being confined to my apartment, especially with two other adult cats there.

Does anyone have any advice to offer? I've raised a kitten from 2 weeks old before, so I'm familiar with how they'll develop, but he was orphaned. These guys have their mama, and I think getting the timing of separating them from her may be tricky, especially with my trip coming up. And mama may move them, although she's become comfortable seeing me and knows I bring her food.

I would include pictures, but no matter how I resize them, I keep getting the error that the files are too big as attachments and I don't use a photo hosting site.

Graces7

Please wait until they are weaned. You can still handle and socialise them when they are with their mother. She will not go anywhere .

We did this with a feral whose newborns were in danger. Brought her and them into safety until they were raised. Handled them and socialised them as the weeks passed and they were all successfully rehomed and the mother spayed. All from a safe confined place

It is very easy! Just leave them with her and handle them every day. She will do the rest. Yes a crate is good. But please do not separate them at this stage. it will cause her and them stress. When they are at least 8 weeks is soon enough and I would even leave it until 12 weeks. she knows what she is doing and she is all the kittens need at this stage. And the food you are providing and the safe place.

volchitsa

I think the problem the OP has is that the only confined space s/he has available is inside the house. If the Op handles the kittens the mother will move them if she has somewhere to go. We've had enough completely domesticated non-feral cats give birth in our home to know that that instinct is very, very strong in cats.

We used to have to search around the house to see where she'd put them now. TBF the fact of having children meant that the cat was more often "disturbed" by them than if it had been only adults in the home, but they were always very careful and gentle with them, and it really seemed to be just the fact of people being around the kittens that was the trigger. In our case they never moved them outside the house, so didn't grow up feral, which was always my concern.

But for a mother cat who is already feral, I think once you handle the kittens, she's going to move them at some point. Best to have a limited number of places she can move them to or you may not find them until the socialisation period has already partly passed.

But I agree that I'd try not to separate them if at all possible. Definitely setting them up for possible behavioural issues later - and since that is exactly what the OP is hoping to avoid, it's really not the answer.

I'd put the mother and kittens somewhere safe if that can be done, I think the mother would take a lot better to being locked in with food and water for 5 days than she would to being separated from them prematurely. And more so again for the babies.

Unfortunately I don't know enough about the OP's situation to make any practical suggestions. Sorry.

Graces7

agree but she mentioned a crate? The feral we dealt with was inside a small cattery. So no chance of her moving them and she was very settled.. until the mumsy hormones wore off after the kittens had left and she reverted t the hissing, spitting scratching feral .

Yes she has to be confined with the kits. I use a dog crate in such need

volchitsa

Yeah but you couldn't confine the mother for five days straight in a crate. That would be cruel.


ETA: maybe you could? It never crossed my mind TBH. I suppose if the alternative is the kittens ending up feral and being euthanised it might be worth considering. Five days is a long time though, if she hasn't been used to the crate first.

Graces7

volchitsa wrote: »

Yeah but you couldn't confine the mother for five days straight in a crate. That would be cruel.


ETA: maybe you could? It never crossed my mind TBH. I suppose if the alternative is the kittens ending up feral and being euthanised it might be worth considering. Five days is a long time though, if she hasn't been used to the crate first.

No not cruel. Nursing ferals tend to have one track minds. Her babies. We let the mother our occasionally and she always went back

And yes, the alternatives... Cats don't count time as we do also..not a prison but a safe hole. I covered the crate with a blanket at times too.

volchitsa

Dunno. Five days seems very very long to me. It's noticeable to me that cats won't usually go back to "old" food, by which I mean stuff that's been out for a day or so.

That's the sort of thing I meant when I said I'd need to know more about the OP's set up before making suggestions. I know cats are usually great mammies, but five days locked in a crate without changing the water, food and litter seems like a really big deal to me. Even for a cat that is used to being confined.

Graces7

volchitsa wrote: »

Dunno. Five days seems very very long to me. It's noticeable to me that cats won't usually go back to "old" food, by which I mean stuff that's been out for a day or so.

That's the sort of thing I meant when I said I'd need to know more about the OP's set up before making suggestions. I know cats are usually great mammies, but five days locked in a crate without changing the water, food and litter seems like a really big deal to me. Even for a cat that is used to being confined.

Hey we change food, water and litter, as we do with any animal . Fresh and clean. I think we are on different pages here?

volchitsa

Graces7 wrote: »

Hey we change food, water and litter, as we do with any animal . Fresh and clean. I think we are on different pages here?

I think you are, yes. The OP is going away for five days, and lives alone. That's the problem here.

Graces7

volchitsa wrote: »

I think you are, yes. The OP is going away for five days, and lives alone. That's the problem here.

Please reread this carefully

"I live in California and it's our dry season - I'm not worried about rain. I would like to TNR mama, but she's very skittish and still nursing them. I'd also like to either have animal services come pick them up or - even more ideally - adopt them out directly to friends/colleagues. Either option requires me to socialize them at some point, which I'm fine with (animal services here euthanizes any animals who are not socialized). I'm thinking of getting a large crate to house them in when they reach 4-5 weeks and socialize them until they hit about 7-8 weeks.

I'd bring them in now, but I'm leaving for a 5 day trip next week and live alone. I also don't want to separate them from their mama until they've weaned, and I don't think she'd appreciate being confined to my apartment, especially with two other adult cats there. "

there is no intention to incarcerate them for five days! Thankfully. That would be worrying... not going to happen!

And op, great plan. Very doubtful she will hide them in that five days. Handling from as early as possible is good, best before 4 weeks. I had a siamese who preferred t o put each newborn in bed with me...

volchitsa

Right. No need for the snippy tone, I'm saying that while a dog crate is fine after the OP comes back from the trip, putting them in one now, with the mother, would not be a good idea. The OP explicitly mentioned the upcoming 5 day trip as being the most urgent issue.

If you weren't suggesting that, then that's fine. It wasn't clear.

I think 5 days away means the kittens will quite likely be gone when the OP comes back, but if it seems like a very safe place to the mother cat, then maybe not. And if they are gone, maybe they won't be moved far. There's definitely a risk though.

metaoblivia

Thanks for the discussion!

To give you a better idea of the set up, they are in an overgrown patch of garden to the right of my apartment. As long as they stay there, they are safe. However, in order to leave, they'll have to cross the driveway where my neighbors park and that connects to a busy street. In fact, when I went out this morning, mama cat was hiding under the neighbor's car. She has come to associate me with food. She's not super happy when I approach, but she doesn't hiss or leave and hasn't moved the kittens. I can get close enough to catch her when the time comes.

My plan is to continue to feed her daily until I go on my trip. Then I'm going to ask my neighbors to continue feeding her daily and provide them with food. They look after my two cats when I'm away and I think they'll be okay with that. When I get back, I will attempt to capture mama and babies and bring them in to raise them in a large kennel in my apartment.

The other option is to capture them now, and let them have a week to acclimate to the kennel / other two cats so that when I'm gone for 5 days, the neighbors can come in and feed them and I don't have to worry about mama moving them. But I'm concerned about mama being confined and mostly unsupervised in my apartment/kennel for that period. My apartment is open plan with only two doors - one for the bathroom, which is too small for the kennel and one for my bedroom. I could fit the kennel in there on top of my bed while I'm away to give them some privacy from the other cats. That may be a solution.

volchitsa

Right. What I was trying to say earlier is that if you are already trying to handle them now then it may be better to follow through before you leave, as that may trigger her to move them when she sees you're gone. And then it may or may not easy to find them again, depending. She may not move them far, but they seem to be instructed to keep quiet when mammy's away (or else Mammy cat only leaves them when they're flaked out, I'm not sure!)

OTOH if you've just fed her and not shown overmuch interest in the babies, she may feel that it's safe enough to leave them, but IME no changing of the "nest" at all since birth is unusual. Gonna happen at some point if she has anywhere else that feels safe to her.

So it comes down to food vs instinct to hide them where nobody knows about them.

If you take the kittens inside, she'll follow without much difficulty, maybe even of her own accord. True that she will probably then try to take them out again, but if you handle the kennel business cleverly, ie, continue to keep just the kittens trapped, and make sure she can get out regularly but not sneak the kittens out without you seeing*, a week could be enough to let her get used to it.

* Easier said than done mind, if you need to leave doors and windows open for the other cats.

volchitsa

On the whole, I think you can take a chance on her trusting you more if you don't move them now, if the neighbours can leave food and water (and not go near the kitties! Do the neighbours have kids?)

Even if she moves them, if you're her best resource I'd say she'll be close by and you'll find them if you look.

Once you're back, how are you planning on using the dog crate - inside the flat or in the garden?
Once you start handling the kittens, unless she's really happy with her new home in the crate, is she not likely to move them the first chance she gets? Maybe Graces7 has a better idea of handling kittens from feral cats, my experience is more of domesticated cats.

metaoblivia

volchitsa wrote: »

Once you're back, how are you planning on using the dog crate - inside the flat or in the garden?
Once you start handling the kittens, unless she's really happy with her new home in the crate, is she not likely to move them the first chance she gets? Maybe Graces7 has a better idea of handling kittens from feral cats, my experience is more of domesticated cats.

I have handled the kittens briefly twice while she's been away to do a short health check (they look very healthy) and she has not yet moved them. She knows that when I come, I bring food, and I think that's why she's staying.

The crate is too big to fit in the front garden. It's 155' x 155' x 76' cm. She's got her kittens tucked in a little narrow, grassy corner that's surrounded on three sides by fences and the house. Once the garden spreads out, there are small fruit trees, large succulents and the driveway. It's the same on the other side too - walking to my door is like walking through a jungle of rose bushes and lime trees.

I could potentially put the crate on the back porch. But our backyard is another absolute jungle with large woodpiles, is accessed by other stray cats and there are pitbulls in both of the adjacent gardens.

So I think inside my apartment may be my best option.

Oh, and the neighbors do have one kid - she's quite young. But they know about the cats and haven't gone close to them. They're cat people as well.

volchitsa

Lime trees and roses! Sounds lovely!

Graces7

volchitsa wrote: »

On the whole, I think you can take a chance on her trusting you more if you don't move them now, if the neighbours can leave food and water (and not go near the kitties! Do the neighbours have kids?)

Even if she moves them, if you're her best resource I'd say she'll be close by and you'll find them if you look.

Once you're back, how are you planning on using the dog crate - inside the flat or in the garden?
Once you start handling the kittens, unless she's really happy with her new home in the crate, is she not likely to move them the first chance she gets? Maybe Graces7 has a better idea of handling kittens from feral cats, my experience is more of domesticated cats.

Yes they are very different. An expert on ferals here opines that by second generation ferals are genetically altered and wired to focus totally to "feed and breed". She will stay where the food is for her babies.

i kept the mother of the ones we rehomed, but kept her inside totally until her milk had dried etc and could be spayed. She came into season very quickly and intensely; the vet actually thought she might be pregnant. if so it would have been a phantom pregnancy.

Incidentally she and the kittens were brought in after a farmer was seen trying to bury them alive... Happy ending for all that time.

She settled into the crate well after the kittens left but I kept it and her indoors until she was spayed.

OP you can only do your best as you ARE doing.. we work by instinct and experience . I learned so much from her as I did from other ferals in remote areas. she came to you as she knew you cared and would be safe with you.

Graces7

[QUOTE=volchitsa;110181858 saying that while a dog crate is fine after the OP comes back from the trip, putting them in one now, with the mother, would not be a good idea. The OP explicitly mentioned the upcoming 5 day trip as being the most urgent issue.

If you weren't suggesting that, then that's fine. It wasn't clear.

I think 5 days away means the kittens will quite likely be gone when the OP comes back, but if it seems like a very safe place to the mother cat, then maybe not. And if they are gone, maybe they won't be moved far. There's definitely a risk though.[/QUOTE]

Unintended assuring you! I was worried as you were upset, then realised you had misunderstood. My old schoolmarm days coming out.. and I am very unwell and will now sign off a few days to avoid upsetting folks again as I would not do that... stay well ....

Graces7

volchitsa wrote: »

Right. No need for the snippy tone, I'm saying that while a dog crate is fine after the OP comes back from the trip, putting them in one now, with the mother, would not be a good idea. The OP explicitly mentioned the upcoming 5 day trip as being the most urgent issue.

If you weren't suggesting that, then that's fine. It wasn't clear.

I think 5 days away means the kittens will quite likely be gone when the OP comes back, but if it seems like a very safe place to the mother cat, then maybe not. And if they are gone, maybe they won't be moved far. There's definitely a risk though.

Unintended assuring you! I was worried as you were upset, then realised you had misunderstood. My old schoolmarm days coming out.. and I am very unwell and will now sign off a few days to avoid upsetting folks again as I would not do that... stay well ....

metaoblivia

Graces7 wrote: »

Yes they are very different. An expert on ferals here opines that by second generation ferals are genetically altered and wired to focus totally to "feed and breed". She will stay where the food is for her babies.

i kept the mother of the ones we rehomed, but kept her inside totally until her milk had dried etc and could be spayed. She came into season very quickly and intensely; the vet actually thought she might be pregnant. if so it would have been a phantom pregnancy.

Incidentally she and the kittens were brought in after a farmer was seen trying to bury them alive... Happy ending for all that time.

She settled into the crate well after the kittens left but I kept it and her indoors until she was spayed.

OP you can only do your best as you ARE doing.. we work by instinct and experience . I learned so much from her as I did from other ferals in remote areas. she came to you as she knew you cared and would be safe with you.

Regarding feed and breed, this has been my experience so far. She seems to watch me from a place where I can't see her because she eats the food I put out very quickly and in its entirety. She hasn't shown any inclination to move the kittens, but will run if I get too close. She always comes back though, for the food and the kittens.

I have a humane trap coming that, given her love of food, I'm hoping we'll find success with.

metaoblivia

Update: I should have knocked on wood when I said it was our dry season. Yesterday, a storm rolled through bringing rain and much cooler temperatures and it's still ongoing. One of the kittens disappeared from the nest, which was in grass, with no cover, but the others were left on there own for the whole day. They were cold, wet and very hungry when I came home from work (I did put a carrier out, but mama didn't use it). The food I left out hadn't been eaten.

I made an executive decision to take them in. I warmed them up, bottle fed them and started looking around for potential fosters. There's one really good facility that has a large hospital, 6 or 7 vets, and a neo natal program for kittens. But they only take really healthy kittens. I brought them in this morning and they accepted them into the program and gave me ID numbers so I could follow up on their progress.

I don't know where the other kitten is. I will assume the best, which is that mama cat moved him and was then unable to come back to the other kittens. I will keep a look out for them and continue to put food out. If nothing else, I will give it a few weeks until the kitten can be assumed weaned and then try to trap mama cat so she can be spayed.

Graces7

metaoblivia wrote: »

Update: I should have knocked on wood when I said it was our dry season. Yesterday, a storm rolled through bringing rain and much cooler temperatures and it's still ongoing. One of the kittens disappeared from the nest, which was in grass, with no cover, but the others were left on there own for the whole day. They were cold, wet and very hungry when I came home from work (I did put a carrier out, but mama didn't use it). The food I left out hadn't been eaten.

I made an executive decision to take them in. I warmed them up, bottle fed them and started looking around for potential fosters. There's one really good facility that has a large hospital, 6 or 7 vets, and a neo natal program for kittens. But they only take really healthy kittens. I brought them in this morning and they accepted them into the program and gave me ID numbers so I could follow up on their progress.

I don't know where the other kitten is. I will assume the best, which is that mama cat moved him and was then unable to come back to the other kittens. I will keep a look out for them and continue to put food out. If nothing else, I will give it a few weeks until the kitten can be assumed weaned and then try to trap mama cat so she can be spayed.

You are awesome! WELL DONE as all along you have been a star. With the mother cat I took in., I kept her in until i could get her spayed. Could not catch /cage her in the house the day I was moving so had to leave a note for my landlord to call in the Rescue folk who knew me well, Even after six months in the house she was not to be handled... but at least I got her spayed.