"Those who have the privilege to know have the duty to act."

auspicious

Every single person can make a difference.

This is one journey of discovery; from ignorance to compassion.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cjXAxZIpkCU

caff

auspicious wrote: »

Every single person can make a difference.

This is one journey of discovery; from ignorance to compassion.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cjXAxZIpkCU

Everything dies, I'll die you'll die. All life dies. A lot of animals are carnivorous, humans are omnivorous. I do not believe I am any different than any other meat eating mammal. Humans just have better tools to get through life. I do believe that as more intelligent beinga we should endeavour to give those animals we eat the best life possible and am completely against cruel deaths and intensive farming. However I do not believe that farming animals is any more distressing or cruel than wild animals being hunted by predators.

Plumbthedepths

Subjective, personally I thought it was B.S.

Snotty

auspicious wrote: »

Every single person can make a difference.

Yes, mass murder would actually be the best, cut the earth's population to about 1B and problem solved.

auspicious

It's all about necessity.
I've never seen a hyena push a shopping trolley down the meat isle or a crocodile toss a salad.
And if 245lb NFL players can improve performance in such a physically demanding sport on a vegan diet, well, that says everything.

gozunda

auspicious wrote: »

It's all about necessity.I've never seen a hyena push a shopping trolley down the meat isle or a crocodile toss a salad.And if 245lb NFL players can improve performance in such a physically demanding sport on a vegan diet, well, that says everything.

"Crocodile toss a salad"? - do you mean that all agriculture is so unnatural it's wrong - animal, horticultural and arable?

But yes - I've never seen a hyena ride a bicycle either, but there you go. Humans developed agriculture so we no longer have the need to forage for plants or hunt wild animals using spears or chase them off cliffs.

Farmed animals are cared for and protected from predation and illness, and yes good welfare is paramount. I know there are exceptions - but the exceptions here are not the rule in my experience.

Lots of different diets suit lots of different people. That doesn't give one diet preference over another nutritionally or otherwise imo. A particular diet may suit one person - it does not follow its the same for anyone else.

auspicious

Which diet suits;
people with heart disease?
Diabetes?
High harmful cholesterol?
Stroke?
Obesity?
Certain cancers?
Alzheimers?
An overburdened HSE?

gozunda

auspicious wrote: »

Which diet suits;
people with heart disease?
Diabetes?
High harmful cholesterol?
Stroke?
Obesity?
Certain cancers?
Alzheimers?
An overburdened HSE?-

A. The answer is:

Any healthy balanced diet which contain all the main food groups
(Diet however is not the only important factor - exercise and activity levels are just as important)

Food groups in your diet
The Eatwell Guide shows that to have a healthy, balanced diet, people should try to:

eat at least 5 portions of a variety of fruit and vegetables every day (see 5 A Day)

base meals on higher fibre starchy foods like potatoes, bread, rice or pasta

have some dairy or dairy alternatives (such as soya drinks)

eat some beans, pulses, fish, eggs, meat and other protein

choose unsaturated oils and spreads, and eat them in small amounts

drink plenty of fluids (at least 6 to 8 glasses a day)

https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/eat-well/

Vegans can get cancer and many other diseases.

https://www.nutritionadvance.com/vegan-propaganda-and-meat/

How the HSE is run is a nighmare of inefficiency, poor management and lack of properly allocated resources - which in itself would take up a complete forum

Look I understand you are passionate about what you eat but the claim that it's some type of miracle cure is at best disingenuous tbh.

auspicious

Where I live and work I interact with farmers all day long. Most are very nice and respectable people and I have a laugh with them. I don't challenge them on ethics or reveal my stance. I am not misanthropic (mostly ), I just don't agree with their practices. They don't realise the merits of a vegan diet and view it as an affront to their traditional ways.
The small farmers work hard out and about on the land are lean and sharp of mind. The fight for me is not against these suppliers but against the demand for the products they provide, granted with pride.
Most people are obviously not farmers and lead sedentary lifestyles. They consume animal products daily, probably three times a day. It's these people who fill the hospital beds and line the corridors. Especially the older generations who have never had a dietary choice or access to knowledge to make positive informed choices.
It's well known that animal products contribute significantly to the afflictions I listed above.
Things need to change and can do so with the uptake of a vegan lifestyle.
The response above is almost exactly the same as one I would have written but with the exclusion of three small words: fish, eggs, meat.

silverharp

auspicious wrote: »

Where I live and work I interact with farmers all day long. Most are very nice and respectable people and I have a laugh with them. I don't challenge them on ethics or reveal my stance. I am not misanthropic (mostly ), I just don't agree with their practices. They don't realise the merits of a vegan diet and just view it as an affront to their traditional ways.
The small farmers work hard out and about on the land are lean and sharp of mind. The fight for me is not against these suppliers but against the demand for the products they provide, granted with pride.
Most people are obviously not farmers and lead sedentary lifestyles. They consume animal products daily, probably three times a day. It's these people who fill the hospital beds and line the corridors. Especially the older generations who have never had a dietary choice or access to knowledge to make positive informed choices.
It's well known that animal products contribute significantly to the afflictions I listed above.
Things need to change and can do so with the uptake of a vegan lifestyle.
The response above is almost exactly the same as one I would have written but with the exclusion of three small words: fish, eggs, meat.

yeah right, people are overeating now primarily because of the abundance of processed carbs, and other processed ingredients like seed oils. Easting less meat wouldn't improve the human diet.

gozunda

auspicious wrote: »

Where I live and work I interact with farmers all day long. Most are very nice and respectable people and I have a laugh with them. I don't challenge them on ethics or reveal my stance. I am not misanthropic (mostly ), I just don't agree with their practices. They don't realise the merits of a vegan diet and just view it as an affront to their traditional ways. The small farmers work hard out and about on the land are lean and sharp of mind.

The fight for me is not against these suppliers but against the demand for the products they provide, granted with pride. Most people are obviously not farmers and have lead sedentary lifestyles. They consume animal products daily, probably three times a day. It's these people who fill the hospital beds and line the corridors. Especially the older generations who have never had a dietary choice or access to knowledge to make positive informed choices.It's well known that animal products contribute significantly to the afflictions I listed above. Things need to change and can do so with the uptake of a vegan lifestyle.The response above is almost exactly the same as one I would have written but with the exclusion of three small words: fish, eggs, meat.

Peoples work does not define them. And unlike some of tirades against 'farmers', meat etc - opinions on what's healthy and what's not - is taken from trustworthy sources such as the above dietary guidelines.

The fact is a balanced diet inclusive of meat, dairy and eggs is recommended by the likes of the NHS*. There are also range of healthy options for those following a veganor vegetarian diet. That's how it is.

There are lots of healthy diets. Peoples dietary and lifestyles can be as rubbish or good as they chose to make them. A vegsn or someone eating a normal diet can also eat ****e, not exercise and be generally unhealthy. That said people get sick for many reasons - genetic, accident, smoking, old age - many which have little if anything to do with diet.

I'd agree many people need to exercise more and eat less and eat healthier. I dont mind at all what anyone eats. However whilst a vegsn can be healthy - it is not by any means a holy grail. A phrase like "it's well known" is neither science or fact nor supported by current official dietary guidelines*.

auspicious

The bottom line is it's recommended you limit animal product consumption. If it's so good why is that? Because if you don't you'll get sick, causing: worry and heartache to loved ones around you,
But also a terrible injustice to the creatures which have to endure the unnecessary processes.

silverharp

auspicious wrote: »

The bottom line is it's recommended you limit animal product consumption. If it's so good why is that? Because if you don't you'll get sick, causing: worry and heartache to loved ones around you,
But also a terrible injustice to the creatures which have to endure the unnecessary processes.

Im not sure its even a consensus , its just something "they" say and I dont think there are any replicable causative studies to back this up. You could also look at populations like the Japanese, Hong Kong etc where they should be dropping like flies and they aren't.
People have been eating meat and dairy for thousands of years, introduce processed food but blame the existing diet....... :pac:

jh79

auspicious wrote: »

The bottom line is it's recommended you limit animal product consumption. If it's so good why is that? Because if you don't you'll get sick, causing: worry and heartache to loved ones around you,
But also a terrible injustice to the creatures which have to endure the unnecessary processes.

Limit not remove red and processed meat. In other words a balanced diet.

The need to reduce red meat is controversial advice. Most studies combine the two but when seperated red meat doesn't seem to cause any issues.

A well planned vegan diet can only match the nutritional value of a balanced diet containing meat, dairy and fish.

auspicious

If you continue to eat fish there'll be none left by 2050. If you continue to eat meat you care less for the environment and future generations than you do your ten minutes of taste pleasure.
Oh and the old oxymoron - I love animals but I eat them.

jh79

auspicious wrote: »

If you continue to eat fish there'll be none left by 2050. If you continue to eat meat you care less for the environment and future generations than you do your ten minutes of taste pleasure.
Oh and the old oxymoron - I love animals but I eat them.

That may well be. But going vegan isn't gonna improve my health

auspicious

A vegan diet may not improve your health but it significantly reduces the risk of your health deteriorating and compounding existing issues.

gozunda

auspicious wrote: »

The bottom line is it's recommended you limit animal product consumption. If it's so good why is that? Because if you don't you'll get sick, causing: worry and heartache to loved ones around you,
But also a terrible injustice to the creatures which have to endure the unnecessary processes.

The reason is simple in that like many foodstuffs - you can have too much of a good thing. Eat too much of anything no matter how nutritious is not recommended. Hence a healthy balance diet as recommended by professionals. Do you really believe that these professionals are lying?

It remains that sadly in the UK the top three cancers are breast cancer, lung cancer and prostate cancer - none which are attributed to diet. Imo it's a very poor idea to use illneses such as cancer to promote a lifestyle no matter what someone believes. Its neither honest nor truthful tbh. Highjacking phrases such as "loved ones" and those who have suffered loss because of such illnesses is downright disingenuous and is wrong :mad:

No one I know is involved in any 'terrible injusice' to any animal btw. These animals are looked after and cared for well. That you do not agree with this is a different matter. That there are exceptions to the rule is always true unfortunately. However that does not mean that those who hold such beliefs get to dictate what others do.

jh79

auspicious wrote: »

A vegan diet may not improve your health but it significantly reduces the risk of your health deteriorating and compounding existing issues.

Again, not compared to a balanced diet.

silverharp

auspicious wrote: »

A vegan diet may not improve your health but it significantly reduces the risk of your health deteriorating and compounding existing issues.

citation needed? Going by crazy vegans on youtube I'd say its quite possible to combine veganism with shortening your life, premature ageing, digestive issues, women losing their periods because they are in significant nutritional deficits etc.

auspicious

Most don't know what a balanced diet is. Turning vegan teaches people about an optimal diet on plant based nutrition while minimising impact on the world.

auspicious

silverharp wrote: »

citation needed? Going by crazy vegans on youtube I'd say its quite possible to combine veganism with shortening your life, premature ageing, digestive issues, women losing their periods because they are in significant nutritional deficits etc.

Citation needed? How about a citation for this

silverharp wrote: »

Im not sure its even a consensus , its just something "they" say and I dont think there are any replicable causative studies to back this up.

jh79

auspicious wrote: »

Most don't know what a balanced diet is. Turning vegan teaches people about an optimal diet on plant based nutrition while minimising impact on the world.

Counter argument to that is because meat and dairy is so nutrient dense ensuring you get your 5 a day of veg and keeping an eye on your BMI is all the planning required.

jh79

auspicious wrote: »

Most don't know what a balanced diet is. Turning vegan teaches people about an optimal diet on plant based nutrition while minimising impact on the world.

Vegans have bad habits too. Poor bone density is common among vegans due to lack of calcium.

silverharp

auspicious wrote: »

Citation needed? How about a citation for this

going by the title this looks like one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjT00oUxVBw

davidjtaylor

jh79 wrote: »

Vegans have bad habits too. Poor bone density is common among vegans due to lack of calcium.

I hope you have solid peer-reviewed science to back that up.

I know around 400 plant-based diet eaters. What is true is that most (not all) of them attempt to educate themselves about their dietary choices and nutritional requirements. They also tend to be (not uncoincidentally) non-smokers. :rolleyes:

jh79

davidjtaylor wrote: »

I hope you have solid peer-reviewed science to back that up.

I know around 400 plant-based diet eaters. What is true is that most (not all) of them attempt to educate themselves about their dietary choices and nutritional requirements. They also tend to be (not uncoincidentally) non-smokers. :rolleyes:

Problem with some vegan websites is the amount of misinformation on them.

Earthling Ed stupidly promotes veganism as a cure for cancer

I think Forks Over Knives is recommended on this forum and its full of junk science.

Can't remember if What the Health is recommended on this forum but that too is full of junk science.

Then you have the common misrepresentation of the data in the China Study. Dr Gregor tiny study on plant based diets and heart disease whose data has never been validated in other or larger studies.

The latter rearing its head in the Vegan AMA thread.

_Brian

auspicious wrote: »

The bottom line is it's recommended you limit animal product consumption. If it's so good why is that? Because if you don't you'll get sick, causing: worry and heartache to loved ones around you,
But also a terrible injustice to the creatures which have to endure the unnecessary processes.

You know if you drink too much water that’s bad for you too, maybe we should be harassing people to stop drinking it ??

People no matter what their persuasion can cite some science article written by “their side” showing how right they are, it’s a failing of our modern funded science research.

Eating meat is pet of the human omnivorous diet, yes things have changed and we farm and cook out meat but the non meat components of our diet has changed just as much.

As for red meat causing cancer, it’s listed as a class 2a carcinogen, like being a hairdresser or working shifts, It is probably linked with cancer but there is no substantial proof exists.

Heavily processed meats should be limited in my mind, fresh cuts of meat are superior.

Similarly though heavily processed vegan products contain a raft of nasty stuff and is by no means a suitable alternative both in health or environmental perspectives.

We should be eating lots of fresh fruit and veg, cuts of meat, dairy, grains and seeds. Eating these in as close to natural forms as possible and as fresh as possible. The best diet includes a balance of ALL these things.

I appreciate there are those who have an emotional weakness regarding farming and consuming animals and I appreciate that’s their position. That should be their “duty to act”, to make their own personal choice
Their “duty to act” should not include;
Illegal trespass on farms
Harassing people who don’t beleive as they beleive
Spreading mistruths about farming and processing of animals
Wanting to force others to live their lifestyle

That’s fascism.

Unearthly

'Emotional weakness'

You've been called out on that before. Show some respect.

Reported

_Brian

Unearthly wrote: »

'Emotional weakness'

You've been called out on that before. Show some respect.

Reported

At least you showed some respect and edited out the profanity in your earlier version of the post.

No offence was intended, it is of course difficult to describe the issue from the outside.

Librolife

auspicious wrote: »

Every single person can make a difference.


Great speech. Injustice on a plate indeed, and totally true, vegans have more delicious and much better food varieties. Don't eat what you can't kill.

gozunda

Librolife wrote: »

Great speech. Injustice on a plate indeed, and totally true, vegans have more delicious and much better food varieties. Don't eat what you can't kill.

'A speech indeed. It's not a competition btw. But its a fact that those eating a normal diet eat many kinds of foodstuffs. And yes they can indeed be "delicious".

May I ask do you cultivate and grow your own food? Do you rely on others to kill the pests and insects so you can eat? What about the animals who lose their habitats and are killed during cultivation?

If not maybe don't eat that others kill so you can ...