Farm Boundaries - Exact Legal Requirements

patsy_mccabe

Some day here. Young heifer got out on main road. Luckily a quick thinking lorry driver took the middle of the road and held up both lanes. He then hopped out and put her back in over the wall.
I got some fright when my neighbour who borders the field rang me.

The problem I have is the wall was built originally by the council and the road has being raised so much, that it is now level with the top of the wall. I rang the council about it to be told it wasn't their repossibility. It's loose dry rock and I don't think I can build on top of it as it's too loose. There's a trench just inside it too to make matters worst. Just outside the wall, the yellow line of the road is only feet away.

I could put a strong fence inside the wall with metal uprights but am I responsible if a car ever came in over the wall and hit them.

Also, when your land borders sites for houses, who is responsible for fencing the boundry. I know the farmer is responsible for fencing in his animals, but is there any onus on the site owner for the costs involved.

What I'm looking for is definitive legal advice on where I stand on all this. Thanks.

Base price

TBH my first port of call would be to contact the IFA (https://www.ifa.ie/) They are brilliant at dealing with problems like this and afaik they will help farmers who are not members.

BENDYBINN

Base price wrote: »

TBH I my first port of call would be to contact the IFA (https://www.ifa.ie/) They are brilliant at dealing with problems like this and afaik they will help farmers who are not members.

All farmers are paying money to the IFA.........

blackbox

The owner of animals is legally responsible for keeping them enclosed.

ED E

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

What I'm looking for is definitive legal advice on where I stand on all this. Thanks.

This statement means the mods have to lock the thread. Boards has an overarching rule against legal advice. Talk to your solicitor.

patsy_mccabe

Not looking for legal advice, just a reference to it.

Base price

BENDYBINN wrote: »

All farmers are paying money to the IFA.........

??

_Brian

Base price wrote: »

??

Because they steal from every animal transaction and every litre of milk ?

The word steal seems apt, taking money someone doesn’t want to give and hasn’t given permission for you to take seems like stealing.

Base price

_Brian wrote: »

Because they steal from every animal transaction and every litre of milk ?

The word steal seems apt, taking money someone doesn’t want to give and hasn’t given permission for you to take seems like stealing.

??

Aravo

patsy_mccabe wrote:

The problem I have is the wall was built originally by the council and the road has being raised so much, that it is now level with the top of the wall. I rang the council about it to be told it wasn't their repossibility. It's loose dry rock and I don't think I can build on top of it as it's too loose. There's a trench just inside it too to make matters worst. Just outside the wall, the yellow line of the road is only feet away.

Write to the council and get their response in writing.

If the animal got out, is it too low or breaking down in places

patsy_mccabe wrote:

I could put a strong fence inside the wall with metal uprights but am I responsible if a car ever came in over the wall and hit them.

What type of road is it. National, Regional, Local. If there is a yellow line it must be National or regional.

Driver error should not be your issue. Sure a higher wall would be as severe as a metal upright. I don't know if you have sheep or not. If not could you put up a strand of electric fence.

patsy_mccabe wrote:

Also, when your land borders sites for houses, who is responsible for fencing the boundry. I know the farmer is responsible for fencing in his animals, but is there any onus on the site owner for the costs involved.

Depends on what is agreed. If it's only sites not sold, probably issues remain with farmer. If houses are to be built then the planning may specify the boundary. If I had a house with a old timber post and rail, it may suit my needs perfectly but not the farmer for their stock so it's farmers issue to keep in their stock.

There is nothing definitive about the legal system in Ireland.

patsy_mccabe

Aravo wrote: »

Write to the council and get their response in writing.

If the animal got out, is it too low or breaking down in places

Wall is too low. For most of the field I have a 3 barbwire fence running inside the trench. It's in the corner where I have a loading pen and a short bit outside where I have the problem.



What type of road is it. National, Regional, Local. If there is a yellow line it must be National or regional.
National -dual carriageway. In essence it's a motorway, just that there are houses along this stretch.

Driver error should not be your issue. Sure a higher wall would be as severe as a metal upright. I don't know if you have sheep or not. If not could you put up a strand of electric fence.



Depends on what is agreed. If it's only sites not sold, probably issues remain with farmer. If houses are to be built then the planning may specify the boundary. If I had a house with a old timber post and rail, it may suit my needs perfectly but not the farmer for their stock so it's farmers issue to keep in their stock.

There is nothing definitive about the legal system in Ireland

These are old existing sites. Constant hassle with the owners. All are grand to deal with, but most just ring me complaining if cattle break out, even though it's there fault that all the hedge is destroyed in the first place.

Say my name

Why the talk about a fence with metal posts?
And hedges bordering houses not being stockproof?

Why not just get a fencing contractor and drive down creosote treated timber posts and fence with electric fencing or sheep wire and barb or a combination of all or get a post driver yourself or hire or a lend and be done with it?

patsy_mccabe

Metal posts because it is a loading pen for holding cattle.
The point about bordering sites is why should the farmer have the full cost of fencing it when there are 2 sides to the fence. Even then the house owner goes mad if I cut trees or bushes that are in the way of a new fence.

Bass Reeves

A single strand of hi-tension with electric will solve most issue with keeping cattle in where there is a wall or hedge behind it. Good posts well treated will last 25+years. Even if you have to put a battery fencer on it when cattle are in there it makes it secure.I have 10acres across the road and I always use the battery fencer there. I also use the battery if have s fence earth issue and cannot fix it . Just isolate the paddock by taking off adjacent gate handles and maybe fence corner connection and you have fences stock proof again

wrangler

BENDYBINN wrote: »

All farmers are paying money to the IFA.........

No, they're not but they expect them to be there when they want them, At least BPMs poor performance will show what it takes to do anything for farmers.
Maybe we''ll get a well funded IFA now.
Great to see IFA getting good support down in cork yesterday, I'd be hopeful they'll deliver something for beef producers now

wrangler

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Metal posts because it is a loading pen for holding cattle.
The point about bordering sites is why should the farmer have the full cost of fencing it when there are 2 sides to the fence. Even then the house owner goes mad if I cut trees or bushes that are in the way of a new fence.

You have to fence in your own stock, it's not your neighbours responsibility.
If your stock break into him and do damage you have to suck it up and pay for the damage
If you're loading cattle you have to have your pen high enough and strong enough to do so

CloughCasey1

wrangler wrote: »

No, they're not but they expect them to be there when they want them, At least BPMs poor performance will show what it takes to do anything for farmers.
Maybe we''ll get a well funded IFA now.
Great to see IFA getting good support down in cork yesterday, I'd be hopeful they'll deliver something for beef producers now

I dub thee knight. Arise sir Wrangler....protector of the IFA and all its cronies. Denouner of all other farming organisations (especially the BPM). Blah blah blah blah blah. Would ya change the tune please.

Post driver, good quality steaks, high tensile wire and a good quality solar fence Patsy should do the trick as mentioned. Id still write to the council and get their response to your situation.
As to the problem with adjacent sites in afraid you have to just sort it your own side. Spent a lot of money over the winter putting up mains fence on all perimeter to keep neighbours bull/cattle out more ao than my own in.

wrangler

CloughCasey1 wrote: »

I dub thee knight. Arise sir Wrangler....protector of the IFA and all its cronies. Denouner of all other farming organisations (especially the BPM). Blah blah blah blah blah. Would ya change the tune please.

Post driver, good quality steaks, high tensile wire and a good quality solar fence Patsy should do the trick as mentioned. Id still write to the council and get their response to your situation.
As to the problem with adjacent sites in afraid you have to just sort it your own side. Spent a lot of money over the winter putting up mains fence on all perimeter to keep neighbours bull/cattle out more ao than my own in.

You got a right kick in the teeth with BPM didn't you, read their facebook to see who needs to change their tune,
Can't say but I warned you, wonder where the €200000 membership fund is now

memorystick

wrangler wrote: »

You got a right kick in the teeth with BPM didn't you, read their facebook to see who needs to change their tune,
Can't say but I warned you, wonder where the €200000 membership fund is now

I hate people who are devote no matter what. Arselickers. My uncle was a real hardcore FF follower and even went to Charlie’s funeral. He lacked a lot of basic knowledge about stuff. Ah well.

hopeso

_Brian wrote: »

Because they steal from every animal transaction and every litre of milk ?

The word steal seems apt, taking money someone doesn’t want to give and hasn’t given permission for you to take seems like stealing.

Just in case anyone doesn't know, you can ask the mart or factory not to deduct the IFA levy from your sales. You should only need to ask once, and they set it up on their system. I don't know what the story is regarding milk......

Buford T. Justice XIX

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Not looking for legal advice, just a reference to it.

I remember Willie Penrose, the ex-Labour TD wrote a book a number of years ago about farming and the law. I was looking for it last night but can't come across it atm but your local library should be able to get a copy of it for you, if you want to look into the legal side of it a bit yourself.

I would be wary about placing metal poles near a roadside, Patsy, the chances of anything happening are small but a car going fast and out of control hitting a pole at the side of the road wouldn't be pretty.

Would it be difficult to maybe change the shape of the pen or move it back further from the road before putting up higher poles where you are now?

Mortelaro

I actually wouldn't be worried about the metal posts in a loading pen/crush joining the road
That's where most out farm loading pens would be
I'd just insure it
I'd imagine if a car went into it,their insurance would have to pay for it
The most important thing is to make it stock proof,so put up your fence
If its an old road,you own half of it by the way
All of it if you have land at the other side

The council's stone fence's purpose is like a sites fence,its only to mark the boundary, it's your obligation to keep your cattle off the road,not the council's.

ganmo

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

The problem I have is the wall was built originally by the council and the road has being raised so much, that it is now level with the top of the wall. I rang the council about it to be told it wasn't their repossibility. It's loose dry rock and I don't think I can build on top of it as it's too loose. There's a trench just inside it too to make matters worst. Just outside the wall, the yellow line of the road is only feet away.

if the council are not claiming ownership of the stone wall are you within your rights to dismantle it?

wrangler

hopeso wrote: »

Just in case anyone doesn't know, you can ask the mart or factory not to deduct the IFA levy from your sales. You should only need to ask once, and they set it up on their system. I don't know what the story is regarding milk......

Of course you can, I've been telling people that for years, but the drama queens call it stealing.

patsy_mccabe

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

I remember Willie Penrose, the ex-Labour TD wrote a book a number of years ago about farming and the law. I was looking for it last night but can't come across it atm but your local library should be able to get a copy of it for you, if you want to look into the legal side of it a bit yourself.

I would be wary about placing metal poles near a roadside, Patsy, the chances of anything happening are small but a car going fast and out of control hitting a pole at the side of the road wouldn't be pretty.

Would it be difficult to maybe change the shape of the pen or move it back further from the road before putting up higher poles where you are now?

That's exactly my predicament. A car crashed there years ago and drove the pier of the gate into the field. Cars do 100kph on the road.
I can't move the pen as it's railway girders set in a strip of concrete about 15 feet in from the wall.
If I put something strong enough to hold cattle, it will be lethal for anyone hitting it with a car.

dzer2

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

I remember Willie Penrose, the ex-Labour TD wrote a book a number of years ago about farming and the law. I was looking for it last night but can't come across it atm but your local library should be able to get a copy of it for you, if you want to look into the legal side of it a bit yourself.

I would be wary about placing metal poles near a roadside, Patsy, the chances of anything happening are small but a car going fast and out of control hitting a pole at the side of the road wouldn't be pretty.

Would it be difficult to maybe change the shape of the pen or move it back further from the road before putting up higher poles where you are now?

That's exactly my predicament. A car crashed there years ago and drove the pier of the gate into the field. Cars do 100kph on the road.
I can't move the pen as it's railway girders set in a strip of concrete about 15 feet in from the wall.
If I put something strong enough to hold cattle, it will be lethal for anyone hitting it with a car.

Most obstructions for cars travelling at 100kph are lethal. Thing is if your cattle are on the road you are definitely liable. Can you not put gates facing the road.

CloughCasey1

wrangler wrote: »

You got a right kick in the teeth with BPM didn't you, read their facebook to see who needs to change their tune,
Can't say but I warned you, wonder where the €200000 membership fund is now

No kick in teeth here sir. I'm not sorry after my tenner. I just hope that i get a better beef price for what i finish to the best of my ability. If nothing else it has helped the IFA get their finger out and remember us small guys are still out there swimming away against the tide. Sure I'd say 3 or 4 days of expenses from the IFA would put some hole in that 200k. SORRY FOR MY INVOLVMENT DERAILING YOUR THREAD PATSY.

Albert Johnson

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

That's exactly my predicament. A car crashed there years ago and drove the pier of the gate into the field. Cars do 100kph on the road.
I can't move the pen as it's railway girders set in a strip of concrete about 15 feet in from the wall.
If I put something strong enough to hold cattle, it will be lethal for anyone hitting it with a car.

It's hard to form an opinion without seeing the site in question but I'm of the opinion to fence your side of the trench and leave the wall to the council. The fence is on your property containing your stock and you'll have peace of mind. Perhaps 3 row of barbed wire or 2 row of plain wire electrified and you can be confident if a stock proof fence for years. If the pen was on my property and inside the boundary then I don't see the problem with maintaining it as required. Once anything you do doesn't encroach upon the road I don't see how you could be liable.

As for worrying about what happens if struck by a car that leaves the road I'd title that an act of God tbh. If a car leaves the road at 100km then I don't fancy there chances and anything fairly solid will mean carnage at that speed.

hopeso

Albert Johnson wrote: »

It's hard to form an opinion without seeing the site in question but I'm of the opinion to fence your side of the trench and leave the wall to the council. The fence is on your property containing your stock and you'll have peace of mind. Perhaps 3 row of barbed wire or 2 row of plain wire electrified and you can be confident if a stock proof fence for years. If the pen was on my property and inside the boundary then I don't see the problem with maintaining it as required. Once anything you do doesn't encroach upon the road I don't see how you could be liable.

As for worrying about what happens if struck by a car that leaves the road I'd title that an act of God tbh. If a car leaves the road at 100km then I don't fancy there chances and anything fairly solid will mean carnage at that speed.

Yes, we'd probably need pictures of the layout to be able to offer useful suggestions regarding fencing it. But, you're main concern should be making it stock proof. You'd have far more questions to answer if animals get out and cause injury, than you would if a car came flying into your property.....

Albert Johnson

hopeso wrote: »

Yes, we'd probably need pictures of the layout to be able to offer useful suggestions regarding fencing it. But, you're main concern should be making it stock proof. You'd have far more questions to answer if animals get out and cause injury, than you would if a car came flying into your property.....

My thoughts exactly, roaming livestock are your concern where staying between the ditches is up to each individual driver. Accidents do occur and none of us wants something we erected to cause additional injury or worse in the case of a traffic incident. Having said that a car doing a 100km or more could still collide with a pen or other fixed object 50 metres down the field. I'd say fence your side and leave the road improvements to the council.

Dozer1

I have sympathy for your situation Patsy, its a nightmare and only when you keep stock along one of the countries main roads do realise the dangers involved.

if it was me I'd take the hit, cut the pen down make a passage or hardcore area inside the wall with rubble etc and set my pen back into the field and feck the road. I'd run my fence alongside my passage with 5ft concrete posts and chain link with electric fence inside it.

farming in built up areas is a nightmare, farming longside arsehole neighbors is a nightmare but such is life....google "haha wall" and you can see what I had to deal with one time as a suggested boundary. either way best of luck with it

Muckit

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I have 10acres across the road and I always use the battery fencer there

Would you consider getting a lad to mole insulated elec cable across the road? Could bring water too if u haven't already.

Buford T. Justice XIX

Dozer1 wrote: »

I have sympathy for your situation Patsy, its a nightmare and only when you keep stock along one of the countries main roads do realise the dangers involved.

if it was me I'd take the hit, cut the pen down make a passage or hardcore area inside the wall with rubble etc and set my pen back into the field and feck the road. I'd run my fence alongside my passage with 5ft concrete posts and chain link with electric fence inside it.

farming in built up areas is a nightmare, farming longside arsehole neighbors is a nightmare but such is life....google "haha wall" and you can see what I had to deal with one time as a suggested boundary. either way best of luck with it

I was expecting something funny with the Haha wall:pac:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ha-ha

Dozer1

at the time....no actually I'll never find it funny, the price we pay for living near townies, how would it look when the dept lad comes to walk the land

Aravo

patsy_mccabe wrote:

That's exactly my predicament. A car crashed there years ago and drove the pier of the gate into the field. Cars do 100kph on the road. I can't move the pen as it's railway girders set in a strip of concrete about 15 feet in from the wall. If I put something strong enough to hold cattle, it will be lethal for anyone hitting it with a car.

Maybe ask the Co Co about the possibility of a safety barrier

wrangler

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

That's exactly my predicament. A car crashed there years ago and drove the pier of the gate into the field. Cars do 100kph on the road.
I can't move the pen as it's railway girders set in a strip of concrete about 15 feet in from the wall.
If I put something strong enough to hold cattle, it will be lethal for anyone hitting it with a car.

You're way overthinking it, there's cars hitting wall all over the place, Our front wall was mowed out it a couple years ago, I can assure I wasn't too bothered about the next car that'd hit it when I was rebuilding.
We' ve land on a hill and the road temperature was always afew degrees lower than anywhere between Dublin and Galway and the frost stayed an hour longer there on a frosty morning, Cars were constantly hitting our gate piers, it didn't stop me rebuilding them
Farmers have no responsibility to careless drivers, they shouldn't be on your property.... council isn't responsible if a car crashes into the upright of a bridge

Aravo

Personal responsibility is a thing of the past when it comes to drivers. It's more of, who will the driver blame or what will the driver blame it on.

One could change the word driver with claimant and that's the claims culture summed up. And the legal profession is as McDonald's say "loving it".