Busses. Alighting and boarding, why are we so sh*t at it?

ballyargus

Most of our city busses have two doors, one at the front for boarding where you pay or use leap, and one in the middle that's meant for getting out.

The use of the middle door is entirely intermittent. A lot of drivers don't bother with it.

In morning times you have queue backed up at the front door as hordes of school kids try to leave by front door.

It doesn't make sense and it's one of those little things that makes our transport service that bit more sh*tty and inept

JeffKenna

Invest in a car!

ShadyAcres

Which town?

PauloMN

Because Irish people don't do rules, and lots would try to get on by the middle doors to evade fares.

Badly Drunk Boy

I'd say people aren't leaving by the middle door because the driver isn't opening it, and the driver probably isn't opening it because of fare evasion, as was mentioned.

suicide_circus

PauloMN wrote: »

Because Irish people don't do rules, and lots would try to get on by the middle doors to evade fares.

this is it. we visit the continent and wonder why we cant have nice things like they have in terms of services and infrastructure - we're too bogie to pay for it and maintain it.

Charles Ingles

Non of the new buses have middle doors

ballyargus

ShadyAcres wrote:

Which town?

Bray

kneemos

suicide_circus wrote: »

this is it. we visit the continent and wonder why we cant have nice things like they have in terms of services and infrastructure - we're too bogie to pay for it and maintain it.

You're bogie.

giveth

How can you thank the driver if you get off using the middle door?

PauloMN

suicide_circus wrote: »

this is it. we visit the continent and wonder why we cant have nice things like they have in terms of services and infrastructure - we're too bogie to pay for it and maintain it.

People are generally a lot more socially responsible elsewhere in Europe, it definitely a cultural thing in Ireland. The take what you can, get away with what you can attitude. But that means that everything, even the little things like getting on and off buses becomes slow and inefficient.

In many normal countries you can get on via the middle doors and drop your cash into a machine at the door. Imagine being able to trust the general Irish public like that! :eek:

Birneybau

giveth wrote: »

How can you thank the driver if you get off using the middle door?

You run ahead and give him the thumbs up

In Sydney you get on the bus at the front door and tag on using their equivalent of the leap card, and then alight via the middlw door tagging off with the card which charges a fare based on distance travelled. Buses move quicker as the driver doesn't have to take fares and people can get on the bus without having to wait for people to disembark.

And people shout thanks to the driver as they exit from the middle doors.

topper75

downtheroad wrote: »

In Sydney you get on the bus at the front door and tag on using their equivalent of the leap card, and then alight via the middlw door tagging off with the card which charges a fare based on distance travelled. Buses move quicker as the driver doesn't have to take fares and people can get on the bus without having to wait for people to disembark.

And people shout thanks to the driver as they exit from the middle doors.

Are there attempts to sneak on without paying via middle doors?

whisky_galore

JeffKenna wrote: »

Invest in a car!

This mindset is why we will never develop public transport anywhere near the standard of other European countries.

topper75

topper75 wrote: »

Are there attempts to sneak on without paying via middle doors?

I never saw it in 3 years of living there.

They also have a cool app that shows the buses moving on a map, so you have actual GPS based real time information unlike the system we operate here.

kalych

Using just the front door is an Irish solution to an Irish problem. To say that we in Ireland are more likely to try and doge fares than say people in Eastern Europe or likely to have more intoxicated people or anti-social behaviour is entirely false. It is just laziness to consider and evaluate how other countries have tackled this.

The whole ticketing structure is too complicated and the fact that Taxsaver and other monthly tickets offer such bad value for money are contributing factors to the need to have "staged" fares. The music industry and the likes of Microsoft with their Office 365 have figured out that subscription model is the way to go rather than to try and fight piracy by individual users.

Subscription services need to provide enough incentive for people not to worry about trying to save on each individual journey. Instead "subscribing" to a monthly flat fare for all public transport for comfort and ease of use. Then the issue become more about statistical optimization of revenue on the whole network rather than painful one we have now.

PauloMN

kalych wrote: »

Using just the front door is an Irish solution to an Irish problem. To say that we in Ireland are more likely to try and doge fares than say people in Eastern Europe or likely to have more intoxicated people or anti-social behaviour is entirely false. It is just laziness to consider and evaluate how other countries have tackled this.

Interesting you made the comparison with Eastern Europe, rather than other West European countries, like France, Germany, Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden etc..

Complex ticketing has nothing to do with the issue (not that I disagree with the point that it needs to be overhauled). Regardless of how simple or complex the ticketing is, you still need to prove you have paid, with some sort of ticket scanner. Countries which don't have such a high proportion of chancers in the general population seem to be able to manage this successfully. It's not because of the complex ticketing system.

Evading fares, taxes, management co. fees, entry fees, whatever... is seen as a badge of honour here to a lot of people. The big bad government, the big bad bank etc.. It's a mentality here, there is no doubt about it. You can see it on a daily basis, a recent example being floods of comments on the Garda Facebook posts about ATM robbieries. The general consensus was "ah sure well done to the robbers, the banks are robbing us for years" etc.. It's pathetic, but that's the attitude of lots of people here and it seeps down into everything in life then, which makes life harder and more expensive for everyone in the long run.

kalych

PauloMN wrote: »

Interesting you made the comparison with Eastern Europe, rather than other West European countries, like France, Germany, Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden etc..

Complex ticketing has nothing to do with the issue (not that I disagree with the point that it needs to be overhauled). Regardless of how simple or complex the ticketing is, you still need to prove you have paid, with some sort of ticket scanner.

You can achieve that with simple revenue protection checks like on the Luas. You seem to be trying to address a process-only issue with some higher moral high ground debate. It seems a much simpler issue to me.

I'll admit don't understand your point on Eastern Europe versus Western Europe at all. You think there are no problem areas in France or some parts of Belgium with their propensity for ghettos? I brought up Eastern Europe to show that even in the less developed countries these problems have been solved.

inforfun

Too many people need to be at the same place at the same time.
And all of them think they are "entitled" to that last seat in that bus.

A car is not only petrol of course but i pay less in petrol each month than i was paying for the bus.
I also leave home 20 minutes later and are back in 30 mins faster than when i had to take the bus.

No matter what they tell you, public transport is **** when you have to use it for your commute.
Outside the busy hours it might be better.

El_Duderino 09

I didnt know you're supposed to use the middle doors for getting off. As opposed to the front. I suppose that's probably what I do anyway but if there's a right and wrong way of doing it then it would be handy if someone told me which way is better.

Grayson

Badly Drunk Boy wrote: »

I'd say people aren't leaving by the middle door because the driver isn't opening it, and the driver probably isn't opening it because of fare evasion, as was mentioned.

And during the winter it's cold and wet.


My gripe about busses is people queueing on the left hand side when they have leap cards.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

JeffKenna wrote: »

Invest in a car!

Ah, I miss my early morning Dublin Bus commute into and out of work...

Grayson

Grayson wrote: »

And during the winter it's cold and wet.


My gripe about busses is people queueing on the left hand side when they have leap cards.

Because the right hand validator charges a full fare, whereas the driver can give a lower fare if the person is travelling a shorter distance.

Flat fare is the only solution, with no leap validator at the driver console. Or else a system of tag on at the front door and tag off at the middle door when alighting the bus.

MarkY91

Drivers too often open the middle door too long after the front door. The middle door is opened when in already going toward the front door. That's if they even open the middle door at all.

Useless. Open the feckin door and let me off without ignorant fools getting in everyone's way and not letting them off.

ohnonotgmail

Grayson wrote: »

And during the winter it's cold and wet.


My gripe about busses is people queueing on the left hand side when they have leap cards.

If you use the right hand validator you get charged the maximum fare. For me that is more than the fare into town.

Chris_Heilong

OP you sound like the kind of person who insists on standing on the same side of the escalator every time you use it, this is just our culture and we do manage, you really notice it when a lot of Italian/Spanish students are getting on a bus that there is chaos because they dont know our unspoken system.

Grayson

downtheroad wrote: »

Because the right hand validator charges a full fare, whereas the driver can give a lower fare if the person is travelling a shorter distance.

Flat fare is the only solution, with no leap validator at the driver console. Or else a system of tag on at the front door and tag off at the middle door when alighting the bus.

I mean people who get on the left so they can tag on the leap card reader. they don't need the driver at all. they just queue on the left so they can skip the queue on the right. I'd be ok if they were travelling a shorter distance and just paying with the leap card.

I'm also adding people who don't get out of the way to let people get off the bus and feckers who get on the first seat at the front and open the window in the middle of winter.

Ray Palmer

What people seem to not know is Dublin Bus had to pay the drivers extra to use the middle doors. The driver complained that they would be blamed for fare dodgers getting on via the middle doors. Then a few years later the new buses were ordered without middle doors but the drivers still get the extra money.

mikemac2

A lot of the usual self hatred in this thread

Widespread fare evasion happens in all countries

Nothing uniquely Irish about it

The French have CheckMy!Metro app to report inspector sightings

The youths in Athens tailgate the tourists through the barriers

The British didn’t keep the Irish down, did that to ourselves

El_Duderino 09

mikemac2 wrote: »

A lot of the usual self hatred in this thread

Widespread fare evasion happens in all countries

Nothing uniquely Irish about it

I'd agree with that. Irish people follow the rules in most cases. The only way you could make ALL people follow the rules perfectly would be to have massive surveillance - We almost all follow the rules on drink driving because it has become part of the culture that it would be shameful to crash and hurt someone while drink driving, plus police drink driving checks.

Other countries are much more relaxed about some rules and more strict on other rules. We will always have some people who break the rules and will not pay for public transport. We might as well try to suit ourselves and write off the people who don't pay as a cost of having a public transport service.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

In my last job, we changed offices. We were now going to be on a Luas line. A girl I worked with said happily to the whole office “Great, I’m going to save €20 a week!”. “Why?” I said. “Because I’m not going to pay the Luas fare!” was the reply. She was completely unashamed at this. She had no intention of paying to ride the Luas and didn’t care who knew. So that gives an insight into why middle doors probably aren’t used as much as they should be.

kneemos

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

In my last job, we changed offices. We were now going to be on a Luas line. A girl I worked with said happily to the whole office “Great, I’m going to save €20 a week!”. “Why?” I said. “Because I’m not going to pay the Luas fare!” was the reply. She was completely unashamed at this. She had no intention of paying to ride the Luas and didn’t care who knew. So that gives an insight into why middle doors probably aren’t used as much as they should be.

Forty five quid fine if she's caught. Makes it tempting.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

kneemos wrote: »

Forty five quid fine if she's caught. Makes it tempting.

I wouldn’t be happily declaring to the office that I’m a cheapskate though.

kevinandrew

In most cases it's a serious lack of common sense. Unfortunately commuter habits are hard to break without serious long term effort from transport operators and even then it's not guaranteed. With that being said, it really doesn't take a genius to figure out what the middle doors on a bus are for! 

In London there's obviously a very, very extensive and well integrated transport system with standardised fares, particularly on the bus network. Such a network comes with its own unspoken rules, almost all of which are formed by common sense unless Transport for London studies show advantages to breaking such rules, the recent 'standing only' escalators being a prime example. 

Trying to break those habits, whether good or bad, is difficult unless the physical infrastructure is changed to make the new system obvious, London's new 'Routemaster' for example has three boarding doors and everyone adjusted very quickly to the change in boarding style.

Yer Da sells Avon

ballyargus wrote: »

The use of the middle door is entirely intermittent. A lot of drivers don't bother with it.

I drive city buses and I only use the middle door if I feel it's safe to do so and there isn't a huge gap between the bus and the footpath. The poor design of Irish bus stop infrastructure (along with cars being legally allowed to park far too close to bus stops) means that it's not always possible to get the entire bus parallel with the path. It's not that I'm not arsed opening the middle door - I just don't want anyone hurting themselves.

I couldn't care less about fare evasion. It's extremely rare on the routes that I drive anyway, but if someone sneaks on without paying, that's not my problem. Sure I'm going that way anyway.

DelBoy Trotter

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

In my last job, we changed offices. We were now going to be on a Luas line. A girl I worked with said happily to the whole office “Great, I’m going to save €20 a week!”. “Why?” I said. “Because I’m not going to pay the Luas fare!” was the reply. She was completely unashamed at this. She had no intention of paying to ride the Luas and didn’t care who knew. So that gives an insight into why middle doors probably aren’t used as much as they should be.

Speaking of the Luas, I get it everyday at peak times and the amount of people who are too stupid to stand to the side and let people off at the stop is staggering :mad:

D3V!L

DelBoy Trotter wrote: »

Speaking of the Luas, I get it everyday at peak times and the amount of people who are too stupid to stand to the side and let people off at the stop is staggering :mad:

The same could be said for the special people who get on a near empty bus and stand like zombies at the front door with their phones blocking everyone getting on and off.

Birneybau

D3V!L wrote: »

The same could be said for the special people who get on a near empty bus and stand like zombies at the front door with their phones blocking everyone getting on and off.

Or the dreaded bus driver's 'pal' who stands there the whole journey, moving in and out of people's way!