Vibration through steering wheel and pedal when braking

Pops_20

Fitted new discs and pads to the front of my 1995 Nissan 180SX approximately one year ago. Not long after this, I started getting a vibration through the steering wheel and pedal when braking moderately from speeds of about 80 kmph and above. It didn't bother me at first but it has slowly gotten worse.

I didn't use a dial indicator gauge to check the run out of the hub before fitting as I didn't have one to hand (I know this is recommended).

I don't believe the calipers are sticking as there is not any excessive heat coming from the discs and they were both taken apart and cleaned out at different times by my mechanic in the last 2 years.

I'd like to resolve this on my own if possible, so my question is, would it be worthwhile doing the following:

Taking both discs off, measure the hub run-out with a dial indicator gauge
If it is out of spec (assuming this is the issue), can I rotate the disc on the studs and measure run-out again, in the hope that this brings it within spec?

Would doing this cause issues with the pads having to re-bed in to the discs as the discs position on the hub would have changed slightly?

Thanks in advance for any suggestions or tips!

Rows Grower

Pops_20 wrote: »

Fitted new discs and pads to the front of my 1995 Nissan 180SX approximately one year ago. Not long after this, I started getting a vibration through the steering wheel and pedal when braking moderately from speeds of about 80 kmph and above. It didn't bother me at first but it has slowly gotten worse.

I didn't use a dial indicator gauge to check the run out of the hub before fitting as I didn't have one to hand (I know this is recommended).

I don't believe the calipers are sticking as there is not any excessive heat coming from the discs and they were both taken apart and cleaned out at different times by my mechanic in the last 2 years.

I'd like to resolve this on my own if possible, so my question is, would it be worthwhile doing the following:

Taking both discs off, measure the hub run-out with a dial indicator gauge
If it is out of spec (assuming this is the issue), can I rotate the disc on the studs and measure run-out again, in the hope that this brings it within spec?

Would doing this cause issues with the pads having to re-bed in to the discs as the discs position on the hub would have changed slightly?

Thanks in advance for any suggestions or tips!

There's a time and a place for DIY, this scenario does not qualify.

Take the car to a professional before you and/or someone else is killed.

Pops_20

Rows Grower wrote: »

There's a time and a place for DIY, this scenario does not qualify.

Take the car to a professional before you and/or someone else is killed.

Bit of an overreaction tbh The brakes work just fine, but there's a vibration when braking.

Rows Grower

Pops_20 wrote: »

Bit of an overreaction tbh The brakes work just fine, but there's a vibration when braking.

There's a vibration through the steering wheel when you press the brakes, it's going on a year, it happens when braking at 50 mph and over, it started after you changed the brake pads and discs on your 24 year old sports car and it's steadily getting worse.

Yeah, over reaction on my part alright to suggest bringing it to a professional.

Sorry about that.

Shur what could possibly go wrong?

RandomUsername

I'd try a new set of discs next if it were mine

Pops_20

RandomUsername wrote: »

I'd try a new set of discs next if it were mine

Thanks. My only worry is that the same issue will happen again as I fitted new discs last time. Perhaps I missed something in the process of changing the discs such as measuring the run-out of the hub.

The car has been to the mechanic twice in the last year and passed the NCT last week with good brake performance, no issues with wheel bearings or anything.

Looking for advice on what could be causing this. If it's a big problem I will surely take it back to my mechanic before I kill myself or anyone else :P

RandomUsername

😄
I know you won't want to just throw parts at it but you could probably get discs and fit them yourself for the cost of a mechanics visit & the problem only started after you fitted the discs and the problem only happens when your breaking.
Were they a good brand of discs at the time ?

Pops_20

RandomUsername wrote: »

��
I know you won't want to just throw parts at it but you could probably get discs and fit them yourself for the cost of a mechanics visit & the problem only started after you fitted the discs and the problem only happens when your breaking.
Were they a good brand of discs at the time ?

The discs and pads were brand new from micks garage. They are Mintex which aren't meant to be too bad from what I've read. Not OEM or a premium brand but not the cheapest either.

blackbox

When changing discs it is critical to get the surface of the hub spotlessly clean. A small bit of rust can result in the new discs not sitting perfectly flat.

It is very unlikely that the discs were faulty when new.

my3cents

OP have you changed the tyres since this happened?

If nothing else put the front on the back etc and see if the vibration changes.

My wife had an "unresolvable" issue recently, everything fine but wierd vibrations through the steering wheel at speed. Tyres were all balanced OK, the tracking was done, wheel bearings fine etc. In the end a new set of tyres and the issue disappeared.

Pops_20

blackbox wrote: »

When changing discs it is critical to get the surface of the hub spotlessly clean. A small bit of rust can result in the new discs not sitting perfectly flat.

It is very unlikely that the discs were faulty when new.

Should have mentioned, I spent a good 15 minutes cleaning each hub surface with a wire brush to remove any corrosion. I then applied a very small amount of grease to the hub to stop the disc seizing over time.

Pops_20

my3cents wrote: »

OP have you changed the tyres since this happened?

If nothing else put the front on the back etc and see if the vibration changes.

My wife had an "unresolvable" issue recently, everything fine but wierd vibrations through the steering wheel at speed. Tyres were all balanced OK, the tracking was done, wheel bearings fine etc. In the end a new set of tyres and the issue disappeared.

No I have not changed tyres since this started happening, but I do have a a spare set of 4 wheels which I had on the car for approx 3 months last year, and the issue was the same when I was driving on them. So that would lead me to believe its not the tyres.

I am thinking I should measure the run-out of the disc. I know it's recommended this should be done when fitting the new discs, but it might give me a clue as to what the problem is. I'll have to buy a dial indicator for this.

Pops_20

I am considering measuring the run-out of the front brake discs which should let me know if this is the cause of the issue.

If the run-out is out of spec, what I'd like to know is if the issue can be corrected by re-positioning the disk on the hub and measure again until it is within spec.

Is it possible to have success with this using a set of discs and pads that have already bedded in? Or will I have to buy new discs and pads?

rex-x

Pops_20 wrote: »

I am considering measuring the run-out of the front brake discs which should let me know if this is the cause of the issue.

If the run-out is out of spec, what I'd like to know is if the issue can be corrected by re-positioning the disk on the hub and measure again until it is within spec.

Is it possible to have success with this using a set of discs and pads that have already bedded in? Or will I have to buy new discs and pads?

You will need new hardware, re positioning the disc is not going to work. Any time I have seen this happen with new hardware then its either a sticky calliper or incorrect fitment (a bump on the hub or the nut of a broken off brake disc retainer screw sticking out etc)

Polo_Cluvie

I had a 04 xtrail yes i know different vehicle entirely but exact same issue. Replaced pads and discs with mintex after 1000miles vibration started. Went back to motor factors who ive a good relationship with and they promptly swapped me out a new set. Mintex again. Same problem returned. Went back to the boys and they ordered me up another set but not mintex. I cant for the life of me remember the manufacturer but i had no subsequent issues.. Both your car and mine quiet large discs and your having trouble with yours and theyre mintex. Buy another set and fit them yourself theyre simple to do. Dont buy mintex. Hope this helps

Pops_20

Thanks guys. Some further information which I forgot to mention. It might help pinpoint the issue.

There is a build of brake dust on the front passenger side wheel. More so than on the driver side. However neither disc are getting hot after driving, so I don't think its a sticking caliper (have had a sticking caliper before).

When I take my hand off the steering wheel, the car pulls to the left. My wheel alignment is fine, it actually measured 0 front and 0 rear on the NCT rollers.

If I do end up buying new discs and pads then I will try a different brand.

Tea drinker

I think you have 2 issues. brake imbalance (not suspension wear) causing pull -assumption based on extra dust you observed.
Disc runout caused by rust contamination behind hub. The discs can wear in OK with a little runout, but if disturbed for any wheel work the runout can now get mangnified. I'd get new discs, and new pads, clean the heck out of it with wire brush, use appropriate protection (not condom)
You also need to investigate the brake imbalance, likely sticking / bleeding / faulty caliper. ASSuming nothing wrong further up in brake system.
I really have no idea what I'm talking about so feel free to ignore everything i just said and bring to a pro.

Interslice

At this point i would be trying the following. Its fairly long winded but would rule out most things.

Turn the wheel and listen is the pad on disc sound consistant. Is anything other than the pad making contact with the disc. Can you move the pads? Are the a perfect fit?

Back off the brake pads from the dics about 5mm. Using a flathead screwdriver as a dial guage is there a warp in the disc?

Remove the caliper. Applying force with your windback tool does the piston move smoothly particularly around its current driving position/extension?

Any piece of metal that makes contact with another piece of metal in the brake caliper or carrier clean it. I use a fee brass wheels on a dremel or a drill to get into the corner. A flathead to scrape off any embedded chunky stuff. Get every thing back to it orignal surface.

Take the carrier off and clean where it contacts the back of the hub.

Do the slider pins move in and out smoothly. Are the clean and straight as a whistle. Roll them on a flat surface.

Clean the hub. How does the disc feel going on there? Should be snug but not tight so as you having to hammer it on and off.
Put everything back together with a smidge of copper grease on the wings and back of the pad. Can you slide the pads in and out along their guides by hand?

Just my 2 cents. Basically i suspecting misalignment somewhere that is causing the brake disc to heat unevenly and bend a bit.

FDave

First thing and easiest i would do is look at your discs on both faces. They should be clean and shiny. run your finger along both faces. They should be perfectly smooth. Any groves on the disc is most likely brake chatter from the carrier and pads or a slider starting to stick, caused by rust or dirt or wrong grease on pad contact areas or in the slider.
Deep groves and corossion on parts of the disc that should be in contact with the pad will usually be a stuck calliper or slider or on rare occasions pad binding with rusty carrier.
At this stage uv probably done too much mileage to sort it without changing pads and discs.

If the problem is in the rear check that the handbrake lever on the caliper extends and returns to its released position on the bump stop or 1mm from it if set correctly.

I had a problem with mintex discs corroding on the outter circumference making contact with the carrier before.

Pops_20

Interslice wrote: »

At this point i would be trying the following. Its fairly long winded but would rule out most things.

Turn the wheel and listen is the pad on disc sound consistant. Is anything other than the pad making contact with the disc. Can you move the pads? Are the a perfect fit?

Back off the brake pads from the dics about 5mm. Using a flathead screwdriver as a dial guage is there a warp in the disc?

Remove the caliper. Applying force with your windback tool does the piston move smoothly particularly around its current driving position/extension?

Any piece of metal that makes contact with another piece of metal in the brake caliper or carrier clean it. I use a fee brass wheels on a dremel or a drill to get into the corner. A flathead to scrape off any embedded chunky stuff. Get every thing back to it orignal surface.

Take the carrier off and clean where it contacts the back of the hub.

Do the slider pins move in and out smoothly. Are the clean and straight as a whistle. Roll them on a flat surface.

Clean the hub. How does the disc feel going on there? Should be snug but not tight so as you having to hammer it on and off.
Put everything back together with a smidge of copper grease on the wings and back of the pad. Can you slide the pads in and out along their guides by hand?

Just my 2 cents. Basically i suspecting misalignment somewhere that is causing the brake disc to heat unevenly and bend a bit.

When I turn the wheel, the sound of the pad on the disc is not consistent. It sounds like it is making more contact for one half of the revolution that the other. This would make sense from the point of view of run-out / something misaligned.
However the wheel spins freely so I don't suspect a sticking caliper.
Pads are a perfect fit yes.

I didn't think about using a screwdriver as a dial gauge. I could clamp it to the carrier with a vice grips and check if there is any variation in its contact with the disc?

I will take apart the brakes after work today and clean/re-grease everything. Basically follow what you said here.

If there is any run-out or misalignment I really hope a clean resolves as I don't want to throw another set of discs and pads at it.

Pops_20

FDave wrote: »

First thing and easiest i would do is look at your discs on both faces. They should be clean and shiny. run your finger along both faces. They should be perfectly smooth. Any groves on the disc is most likely brake chatter from the carrier and pads or a slider starting to stick, caused by rust or dirt or wrong grease on pad contact areas or in the slider.
Deep groves and corossion on parts of the disc that should be in contact with the pad will usually be a stuck calliper or slider or on rare occasions pad binding with rusty carrier.
At this stage uv probably done too much mileage to sort it without changing pads and discs.

If the problem is in the rear check that the handbrake lever on the caliper extends and returns to its released position on the bump stop or 1mm from it if set correctly.

I had a problem with mintex discs corroding on the outter circumference making contact with the carrier before.

The problem is on the front. The discs are both clean and shiny except for one small narrow groove on the inner circumference of the passenger side disc. I noticed this a while back but was not sure what could have caused it.

There are no deep grooves or corrosion. I have had sticking calipers on 2 cars before and I know what that looks like (and smells like ) so I am hoping to rule that out today.

I will post pictures later if I don't find anything obvious. Thanks.

Pops_20

Took apart both front brakes this evening. Neither one was particularly dirty, but I cleaned everything up anyway.
Cleaned caliper carrier, face of disc and the hub, slide pins cleaned and re-greased with silicone grease, and cleaned the hardware that the pads slide on.
I also checked for run-out with a screwdriver held against the disk with a vice grips. There didn't appear to be any variation across the face of the disc, although its not the most scientific method.

The pistons didn't seem to be sticking and I was running out of time so I just cleaned the face of the piston and reassembled everything.

Here's a picture of both discs.





Took it for a test drive and unfortunately its still the same

Really don't know what it could be unless the discs are just warped and need replacing already.

Is there any chance it could be suspension or a bushing that's causing the car to pull to one side? Would this also cause vibration when braking?

Rows Grower

Pops_20 wrote: »

Took apart both front brakes this evening. Neither one was particularly dirty, but I cleaned everything up anyway.
Cleaned caliper carrier, face of disc and the hub, slide pins cleaned and re-greased with silicone grease, and cleaned the hardware that the pads slide on.
I also checked for run-out with a screwdriver held against the disk with a vice grips. There didn't appear to be any variation across the face of the disc, although its not the most scientific method.

The pistons didn't seem to be sticking and I was running out of time so I just cleaned the face of the piston and reassembled everything.

Here's a picture of both discs.





Took it for a test drive and unfortunately its still the same :(

Really don't know what it could be unless the discs are just warped and need replacing already.

Is there any chance it could be suspension or a bushing that's causing the car to pull to one side? Would this also cause vibration when braking?

It'll be grand shur, keep driving it away there until someone on here comes up with an idea how to fix it.

You'll be grand, who needs reliable brakes in an old sports car doing over 50 mph?

Tea drinker

What's going on there. the pad matches the contact area on the disc or no?
Or the disc is worn?

my3cents

Hydraulic Oil, when was it last changed? Any chance its full of water?

Pops_20

Tea drinker wrote: »

What's going on there. the pad matches the contact area on the disc or no?
Or the disc is worn?

That's the area that the brake pad does not contact. It was shiny and clean when I bought the discs but it corrodes over time. I think you will get that on most cars as the pad does not cover the entire disc area.

Tea drinker

Pops_20 wrote: »

That's the area that the brake pad does not contact. It was shiny and clean when I bought the discs but it corrodes over time. I think you will get that on most cars as the pad does not cover the entire disc area.

The pad wear area is raised and away from that though? It's dished like these ones? Hard to see in the photo!
https://www.eurocarparts.com/en_ie/search/104700519?gclid=CjwKCAjwqLblBRBYEiwAV3pCJoqUGMxULr0WOTt2zgIwcARKr45siMHoqlk-rg2371vDSTmV1b0mCxoCneoQAvD_BwE

my3cents

Tea drinker wrote: »

The pad wear area is raised and away from that though? It's dished like these ones? Hard to see in the photo!
https://www.eurocarparts.com/en_ie/search/104700519?gclid=CjwKCAjwqLblBRBYEiwAV3pCJoqUGMxULr0WOTt2zgIwcARKr45siMHoqlk-rg2371vDSTmV1b0mCxoCneoQAvD_BwE

My disks are flat across the whole surface as have most of the disks I've ever changed, can't see it making any difference here that would cause an issue?

Interslice

Pops_20 wrote: »

Took it for a test drive and unfortunately its still the same

Really don't know what it could be unless the discs are just warped and need replacing already.

Is there any chance it could be suspension or a bushing that's causing the car to pull to one side? Would this also cause vibration when braking?

That all looks in very good condition in fairness. If your not feeling a pulse through the pedal and it just in the steering it could be a bushing or a balljoint collapsing under load. If its pulling left when braking it could be your front ns wishbone bushing. The most basic test is to jack up the front and see is there movement when you grab the tyre at 12 and 6 and at 9 and 3. Then go digging with a torch and pry bar.

my3cents

I'll ask again when the hydraulic fluid was changed? I know I didn't bother in one old banger and at speed I used to get a vibration when braking, possibly you'd call it a pulsing, through the steering wheel. When I had to replace a brake hose I did the fluid at the same time and the problem went away.

Interslice

Pops_20 wrote: »

At 5 o clock on that disc near the wheel stud is there a weird bobble in the braking surface or is a trick of the light?

Pops_20

Interslice wrote: »

That all looks in very good condition in fairness. If your not feeling a pulse through the pedal and it just in the steering it could be a bushing or a balljoint collapsing under load. If its pulling left when braking it could be your front ns wishbone bushing. The most basic test is to jack up the front and see is there movement when you grab the tyre at 12 and 6 and at 9 and 3. Then go digging with a torch and pry bar.

The car doesn't seem to pull left when braking. It pulls left when you are driving straight and take your hand off the steering wheel, but I don't have to 'fight' the wheel to keep it straight, only when I let go it does this.

I had two front link arm bushes replaced about 4 months ago. They were starting to split and crack, and when braking the car would pull to the left.
Replacement bushes resolved that issue.

The vibration in the steering wheel is worse than the brake pedal. There's definitely a small vibration in the pedal but not that noticeable.

I'll have a go at checking for worn bushes. Just yesterday I noticed there is a groan from the front offside wheel bearing. No play in it, just a slight roughness when spinning the wheel.

If I don't get to the bottom of this I'll have to take it to my mechanic

my3cents wrote: »

I'll ask again when the hydraulic fluid was changed? I know I didn't bother in one old banger and at speed I used to get a vibration when braking, possibly you'd call it a pulsing, through the steering wheel. When I had to replace a brake hose I did the fluid at the same time and the problem went away.

The brake fluid has not been fully flushed out in a few years, but I had the rear calipers fully rebuilt 6 months ago, and the fronts cleaned up at the garage over a year ago, so I assume some sort of a flush of brake fluid would have been done. Looking in the master cylinder it's very clean.

Pops_20

Interslice wrote: »

At 5 o clock on that disc near the wheel stud is there a weird bobble in the braking surface or is a trick of the light?

I see what you mean, but I think that's just a reflection from some of my tools on the ground. I'll take a closer look at it later on.

mullingar

You need to get a run-out gauge. They are very cheap:

https://www.ebay.ie/itm/METRIC-DTI-DIAL-INDICATOR-TEST-GAUGE-STAND-WITH-MAGNETIC-BASE-PRECISION-CLOCK/283036812487?hash=item41e64f04c7:g:pPoAAOSwbURcejrj


Also it looks like you might not have cleaned the face of the hub enough as it still looks rusty through the 2x removal holes

Pops_20

mullingar wrote: »

You need to get a run-out gauge. They are very cheap:

https://www.ebay.ie/itm/METRIC-DTI-DIAL-INDICATOR-TEST-GAUGE-STAND-WITH-MAGNETIC-BASE-PRECISION-CLOCK/283036812487?hash=item41e64f04c7:g:pPoAAOSwbURcejrj


Also it looks like you might not have cleaned the face of the hub enough as it still looks rusty through the 2x removal holes

Thanks for that. I had trouble finding an affordable one online. I ordered it so hopefully that will tell me whether I have variation in the disc thickness or not!

If it's out of spec then I will measure the run-out of the hub and give it a better clean.

Pops_20

Finally got around to measuring the run-out of both discs. I think I have found the problem.

The max run-out measured at the disc allowable for my car is 0.07 mm
On the passenger side the run-out is 0.03 mm
On the driver side it is 0.15 mm (more than double the spec).

I measured at multiple points of the discs close to the edge just to make sure it was an accurate reading. It was the same in all cases.
I even rotated the discs stud by stud on the hub and couldn't get the run-out below 0.15 mm.






Now this has got me thinking. The wheel bearing and hub on the driver side was replaced with a second hand unit about year ago. When I spin the driver side wheel, I can hear a grumbling noise and it feels a bit rough, so I suspect that second hand wheel bearing that came with the hub is on the way out.
This leads me to think that the run out of the hub itself it excessive, which has lead to the disc to vary in thickness over time.

I am thinking of doing the following:

1) Replace the wheel bearing with a new one and fit the same disc and pair of pads back to the driver side. Measure the run-out again.

2) If this doesn't resolve the issue, I expect the disc on the driver side has already been "warped", and I'll have to get a new set or else get the disc machined (don't know if people even do this anymore).

Andrewf20

I had a similar issue on my car before. I have a tendency to keep the brake pedal on if I come to a stop on a hill as my handbrake is brutal. After heavy braking on the lead up to the stop - it may cause a thermal hot spot where the pads bite the disc, therefore causing a slight warp. That's what I suspect anyway.

Pops_20

Just to update on where I am with this at the moment. I went ahead and replaced the driver side hub and wheel bearing with a second hand part I had lying around.



Firstly, there the wheel bearing felt a bit rough when turning the wheel... and no wonder, there was a dent in the dust cap and water had got in and turned the bearing grease to mayonnaise :eek:, so that was definitely going to cause problems sooner or later. I also found there was no cotter pin in place so definitely a safety concern.



I greased up the second hand bearing and the knuckle spindle and put the disc back on the hub. Torqued everything down.

Measured the run-out of the disc again as before:

1) First time measuring it was 0.10 mm. Checked this in several spots to confirm.

2) Rotated the disc clockwise by one stud on the hub. Measured run out again. It is now 0.03 mm... SUCCESS! Within spec and the same as the passenger side.

I took the car for a test drive and while it initially seemed a little better, there is still a vibration coming through the wheel and the pedal.

I know I should probably give up and either live with it or take it to my mechanic, but I would really love to fix this on my own

What's left that could be causing this? The run-out checks out as far as I understand.

Is it possible that the brake discs on the driver side have to re-bed-in after changing the wheel bearing and hub?

my3cents

With all the work you have put into this I doubt your mechanic could do any better.

Don't really think there is any bedding in necessary for the wheel bearing, never had a new bearing do anything other than improve things.

Can't remember if you mentioned it but whats the wheel alignment like?

Pops_20

my3cents wrote: »

With all the work you have put into this I doubt your mechanic could do any better.

Don't really think there is any bedding in necessary for the wheel bearing, never had a new bearing do anything other than improve things.

Can't remember if you mentioned it but whats the wheel alignment like?

I was referring to the pads bedding in again after the disc's position on the hub has changed relative to the pads due to the new wheel bearing, but then again I am just guessing

Got a four wheel alignment done about 12 months ago and it was all set perfect. Also it was perfect on the NCT rollers last month.

The only thing outstanding is that the car will pull to the left if you let go of the steering wheel. Would that suggest a bad bushing or ball-joint / tie-rod somewhere?