Spin Training - Training Advice

54and56

Hi all,

50 year old weekend road cyclist doing 80km to 100km spins down the general Enniskerry/Wicklow direction.

I like to get a spin class or two in during the week and my gym (Westwood Leopardtown) just installed new Keiser M3 Spin bikes with a performance monitor for RPM, wattage, distance etc.

I'd like to make the most of the new bikes to optimise my training so I can improve my endurance and climbing. (The Wicklow 200 is a dream!!)

For those of you with Spinning experience can you please help me with the following:-

What is the optimum cadence/RPM for sprinting and climbing? I'd like to have a target RPM in place for each so I can hit that and then try to maintain it by increasing the resistance/gear I'm in. I have it in my head that that would be a good way to set a training goal and would allow me to measure/see how I'm progressing. Good/bad idea?

In general I feel 115-120 is the max RPM I can sprint at and on a standing climb I find 65-70 RPM is a solid maintainable rate.

FWIW the built in power metre generally show my max wattage to be circa 280-285 or so. Is that in the range I should be expecting to see as a reasonably half fit middle aged man carrying about 15kg too many?

Lastly, ATM I just use runners/sneakers when spinning but I'd like to get some inexpensive SPD shoes for use in spin classes which I can just leave in the car rather than use the "good" shoes I wear at weekends.

I know Aldi and Lidl do SPD compatible shoes from time to time but am considering buying a pair of these from Amazon for £30 or so.

Do they look like they'll be a good option for spinning? They're designed for MTB's but I think that just means they have a bit more sole on them which I actually think will be helpful for spin classes.

Appreciate your input.

ED E

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

What is the optimum cadence/RPM for sprinting and climbing?

90-100 for everything. You have gears for this reason, output 90rpm constantly then adjust the gearing to maintain that.


When talking about what you can maintain you should be looking at watts, watts are what matter. RPM is just something to be kept as consistent as possible.

54and56

ED E wrote: »

When talking about what you can maintain you should be looking at watts, watts are what matter. RPM is just something to be kept as consistent as possible.

OK, I get that wattage X time is the ultimate metric for building endurance but I didn't expect there to be a single RPM for both climbing and sprinting. I thought they'd be spilt into distinct target numbers.

fat bloke

I'd be of the opinion that sprinting is balls-out, head down, fast as you can, nary a fig to the metrics at the time and irrelevant to the Wicklow 200.

Climbing rpm, well, that varies from person to person, and metre to metre on an Irish climb. We don't have 20 km constant gradient climbs, ours ebb and flow, rise and fall constantly. You'll get a feel of your own natural cadence with time. I'd say mine is 85 to 90 but I like to mix it up seated, standing etc, and I couldn't maintain 90rpm on lots of steep sections with my gearing.

I used to monitor cadence all the time, til I got a power meter and now that's my tractor beam.

Lumen

Not sure why you want to sprint. It's quite unpleasant.

Cadence preference is individual. Anything over 70 is fine in my opinion.

Max power is a bit of a vague metric.

Focus on power over various fixed durations, perhaps 1 minute, 5 minutes and 20 minutes.

54and56

Lumen wrote: »

Not sure why you want to sprint. It's quite unpleasant.

I don't disagree but interval sprinting, especially in spin classes, is common and I believe a well accepted method for building fitness.

gwakamoley

If you don't have a cadence meter on your bike then I'd recommend getting one. A garmin speed/cadence sensor is relatively inexpensive. I got one recently and have been really interested in the readings. I find that depending on lots of factors, the same cadence can feel quite different, eg. I'd happily spin along at 95+ when moving well on the flat but on a climb what I used to think felt like a quick enough spin was actually only in the low 80s or high 70s when I measured it, and standing up on the pedals I'd go down to the 60s at times.

Once you know what's natural on the road then this gives a bit of context to your indoor numbers and lets you work more at cadences that are more useful out on the road. I agree with the poster above saying that you won't be spending much time at 120+rpm at the WW200, but focusing some training at your climbing cadence will help a lot.

This is an interesting article about optimimum cadences and how no-one really knows what is best, so you should (within reason) just go for whatever is natural for you:
https://www.cyclingweekly.com/fitness/why-amateurs-shouldnt-try-to-pedal-like-chris-froome-191779

54and56

Thanks gwakamoley,

I do have a Cadence sensor on the bike and I use that along with a HR monitor reading on my bike computer to manage my performance i.e. know if my HR is getting above 135 that I'm entering the "Red" zone and will soon blow up so I'll row back a little unless I'm already in the granny ring on a climb and don't have any more options!!

Like you I'm happy tipping along the flat or flatish at circa 85/90 but drop back to 75/80 if I'm climbing in the saddle and down to 60/65 if I'm either out of the saddle or out of gearing options and am trying to stay going on a climb for as long as possible.

My original post wasn't so much about how to manage cadence out on the road but to identify if there are optimum cadences I should aim for in a spin class when sprinting and climbing in order to get the most out that form of training.

saccades

Have you done a spin class? I'm a big fan, it`s turbo session with a supercharger. The sprints are flat out, 120+ rpm, condition the twitch muscles and build the cardio. The steady climbs are for power, use slightly lower candence than you think and and grunt, haul on the bars for leverage. Be careful on the knees though. Hill sprints are torture but you don't want to be a low torque heffer or plodding diesel. I do two sessions a week with a 20 min core routine after and it`s that that gives me as a 25kg overweight guy the ability to do the w200, coupled with 80-100km spins at the weekend. The place i use has basic bikes but I'm not measuring anything, i give it 100%, sometimes its not great as work has been tough, other times i feel like superman. On the road bike though you notice it, the extra gear or two along that drag or the burst of power to get over a 50m hump in the road. I use spds on mtb and road but trainers on the spin bike to force me to be precise on the sprints. Edit to say, stupid formatting on ps4 and but my power output on strava is lower than your power too, maybe you are able for the 200? Edit, edit, my heart rate is way higher, cruise at 135, hard push at 165 and max 184 and virtually same age._. Maybe the difference ?

ED E

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

I don't disagree but interval sprinting, especially in spin classes, is common and I believe a well accepted method for building fitness.

Don't prescribe science to most of what you see in a spin class. Same goes for Zwifts ridiculous training plans.

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

i.e. know if my HR is getting above 135 that I'm entering the "Red" zone and will soon blow up so I'll row back a little unless I'm already in the granny ring on a climb and don't have any more options!!

135 is a little low for hitting the red at 50yo. You shouldnt be zone four until 150bpm or around there (everyone is different, might just be "normal" for you).

54and56

ED E wrote: »

Don't prescribe science to most of what you see in a spin class. Same goes for Zwifts ridiculous training plans.

Well I wasn't prescribing anything unique to Spin classes to science. I was just stating that AFAIK interval/fartlek training is a well established training technique credited with delivering tangible results regardless of whether that's via spinning or running or rowing etc etc.

Is my understanding of the merits of interval / fartlek training incorrect? Is it all unsubstantiated mumbo jumbo??

ED E wrote: »

135 is a little low for hitting the red at 50yo. You shouldnt be zone four until 150bpm or around there (everyone is different, might just be "normal" for you).

You're spot on, I misstated. My estimated Zone 5 threshold starts at 145. Once I hit that I know I'm in danger of blowing up unless it's just for a short period e.g. to get me up and over the final piece of a climb. See my data from a spin class this morning where my average HR throughout was 132 BPM with a max of 149 BPM. Interestingly my average wattage throughout the 45 minute class was 163 with an average cadence of 72. I'm not sure how the wattage stacks up against what I could/should be producing as an overweight 50 year old but I'm not too surprised by the average cadence.

Edit: An average wattage or FTP of 163 is not very good according to this calculator - https://www.cyclinganalytics.com/blog/2018/06/how-does-your-cycling-power-output-compare

I guess focusing on improving my average wattage per 45 minute class would be a more productive target to focus on rather than sprint and climbing RPM etc?

Lumen

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

I don't disagree but interval sprinting, especially in spin classes, is common and I believe a well accepted method for building fitness.

Fitness is specific, so fitness for what?

Sprinting is a maximum effort for a few seconds that ends with you wanting to puke through your eyeballs. Interval training is generally done with lower intensity efforts.

If you want to understand cycling training, forget anything that happens in a spin class.

Lumen

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

I guess focusing on improving my average wattage per 45 minute class would be a more productive target to focus on rather than sprint and climbing RPM etc?

None of these ideas are good.