Getting into forestry harvesting business

BogBoy84

Hi all,

I am thinking about getting into the forestry business. Thinnings, clearfell etc.
From my research, I think the best and cheapast way to do this would be a digger with a timber harvesting head.

Does anybody know if I need a safepass, or driver traning to drive a digger on somebody else's land? Is there a training course I can do for a timber harvester?

What are peoples thoughts and opinions on this? Has anybody any experience with this? What machines do people recommend?

Thanks in advance!

timfromtang

BogBoy84 wrote: »

Hi all,

I am thinking about getting into the forestry business. Thinnings, clearfell etc.
From my research, I think the best and cheapast way to do this would be a digger with a timber harvesting head.

Does anybody know if I need a safepass, or driver traning to drive a digger on somebody else's land? Is there a training course I can do for a timber harvester?

What are peoples thoughts and opinions on this? Has anybody any experience with this? What machines do people recommend?




Thanks in advance!

Hi BOgBOy,
Head for Cavan, BallyHaise is the spot, there's a college, they teach ya, they've a machine simulator to teach advanced driving skills required for harvesting and forwarding.
I've a young lad from the course been coming to me at weekends on work exp, I've only good things to say about the place.
tim


A felling grapple can be fitted to a timber crane on a (valtra reverse drive) tractor also might be worth looking into for thinning hardwoods.

blue5000

From what I've seen with a digger there was a lot of damage done to the trees at either side of the rows where 1 row was thinned out. Now it might just have been a bad operator.

tabby aspreme

OP you should work with some of the harvesting companies to get experience of what is involved in the business, and make some contacts, before trying it yourself

BogBoy84

timfromtang wrote: »

Hi BOgBOy,
Head for Cavan, BallyHaise is the spot, there's a college, they teach ya, they've a machine simulator to teach advanced driving skills required for harvesting and forwarding.
I've a young lad from the course been coming to me at weekends on work exp, I've only good things to say about the place.
tim


A felling grapple can be fitted to a timber crane on a (valtra reverse drive) tractor also might be worth looking into for thinning hardwoods.

Hi Tim,

Thanks for the advice. Unfortunately going to ballyhaise is not an option as I’m currently studying robotics in Maynooth and don’t plan on dropping out. Had a look on the teagasc website and the forestry course was 2 years long. Is there a short term course anywhere I could do over the summer? As in, 6 or less weeks long?

Is there any pass or permit that I legally need to do this work? Absolutely not against safety and doing things right. I’ve seen what happens when cowboys come into a job and don’t know what they’re doing.

Budget not massive either, was thinking of doing a long term digger hire from a guy I know well who would have the timber head aswell, and would be able to deliver the digger from site to site. Opinions on hiring a digger? Say for 2/3 months?

BogBoy84

blue5000 wrote: »

From what I've seen with a digger there was a lot of damage done to the trees at either side of the rows where 1 row was thinned out. Now it might just have been a bad operator.

Hi Blue,

I can’t see why a digger would cause more damage than a normal harvester or tractor mounted harvester. From what I’ve read a 6-8t digger is what’s recommended for harvesting with which I think would be smaller than both other machines, so it could have been a mixture of bad operator, machine too big or the rows may have been planted too closely together.

BogBoy84

tabby aspreme wrote: »

OP you should work with some of the harvesting companies to get experience of what is involved in the business, and make some contacts, before trying it yourself

Hi Tabby,

I’m not completely new to the whole forestry scene, so I would have contacts of buyers, sellers, where forestry is and so on.

I’m just unfamiliar with the machines and what passes I need etc.

A bit of a waste of time and energy IMHO if you're not working a machine full time and no digger with a harvesting head will be as efficient as a harvesting machine anyway, so I'm not sure how much work you'd really get and whether it would be worth your while. A lot of uncertainty anyway. Did the guy who owns the machine try to sell you on the idea?

There might be more to be gained by doing the relevant City and Guilds CS courses (30/31/32/34/35) and using a quad and handling trailer for selective harvesting or second thinnings in places where the owners want low impact and need to recover windfall/saleable timber. You won't have much left from €20k though by the time you invest what it takes. Doing it properly you can do fairly well at that kind of thing.

All that said, I don't think it makes any sense to be going spending money on training and gear or renting machines (and yes, you'll need your tickets and insurance) if you're only looking to do it part time. It's hard work and all you'll be doing is making someone elses machinery payments for them if you're going out renting stuff and not going to put 100% into it and look to really build your own business.

BogBoy84

BogBoy84 wrote: »

Hi Tabby,

I’m not completely new to the whole forestry scene, so I would have contacts of buyers, sellers, where forestry is and so on.

I’m just unfamiliar with the machines and what passes I need etc.

That bit there should be ringing alarm bells for you right there. It's not just a machine and a pass that you need. No man who's right in the head is going to send in a fella in a machine to harvest when they don't know what they're at. Knowing the machine an getting a ticket for it is just the very starting point and even then, the economics of your setup should be optimised or you'll be on the back foot before you start up a machine on day one.

BogBoy84

Jayzeus,

Everybody has to start somewhere, right? I'm only 19 and I get about 4 months off in the summer due to college so I was hoping to go full time over summer.

When I said I was unfamiliar with the machinery, I meant what specific diggers/harvesters/forwarders/harvesting heads people use and recommend for somebody like me just trying to get into the business. I am not unfamiliar with the driving of diggers and tractors.

I hate this attitude of "you need more than just a machine and a ticket". I am the only person in my family that is into forestry, nobody local is into it either so there is nobody that could show me the tricks of the trade and how to operate a harvesting machine properly etc. I would consider myself hard working and I am always open ears for peoples advice, opinions and help, but I have to get experience somewhere. Everybody who works at anything once started off not knowing how to do it.

In regards to renting machines, a decent 6-8t digger can not be got for less than 10k. Add another 5-10k on for a head, 5k for trailer, 15k for a tractor to haul the digger and trailer. Then someway of getting the timber out of the forest. Can you see why hiring machines to start off seemed appealing to me? I was hoping to start off renting, then move up and start purchasing my own machinery bit by bit.

giveitholly

With regards getting a head put on a track machine,how would you manage to put a track back on if you threw one off?

BogBoy84

giveitholly wrote: »

With regards getting a head put on a track machine,how would you manage to put a track back on if you threw one off?

Is this a common thing for diggers with harvesting heads to throw tracks? I've never seen it happen on sites etc but I haven't seen or worked with a digger with a harvesting head on it, how would that situation normally be resolved?

BogBoy84

BogBoy84 wrote: »

Jayzeus,

Everybody has to start somewhere, right? I'm only 19 and I get about 4 months off in the summer due to college so I was hoping to go full time over summer.

When I said I was unfamiliar with the machinery, I meant what specific diggers/harvesters/forwarders/harvesting heads people use and recommend for somebody like me just trying to get into the business. I am not unfamiliar with the driving of diggers and tractors.

I hate this attitude of "you need more than just a machine and a ticket". I am the only person in my family that is into forestry, nobody local is into it either so there is nobody that could show me the tricks of the trade and how to operate a harvesting machine properly etc. I would consider myself hard working and I am always open ears for peoples advice, opinions and help, but I have to get experience somewhere. Everybody who works at anything once started off not knowing how to do it.

In regards to renting machines, a decent 6-8t digger can not be got for less than 10k. Add another 5-10k on for a head, 5k for trailer, 15k for a tractor to haul the digger and trailer. Then someway of getting the timber out of the forest. Can you see why hiring machines to start off seemed appealing to me? I was hoping to start off renting, then move up and start purchasing my own machinery bit by bit.

Are you looking for sympathy or advice? Real world stuff now, right? You're a 19 year old college student, have no training or experience in forestry operations, want to hire a digger and a harvester head from a neighbour for the summer and expect someone to let you loose on a commercial crop. And you want to do that for your 4 month summer holiday, but not actually full-time year round, right?

I applaud your sense of confidence, but you need to slow down there a bit.

Everyone has to start somewhere but the forester or owner is the person who gets to decide if you start or not. Nobody is going to let you start with your rented machine and some 'ah here'. If you're serious about this, go to the courses in Ballyhaise and make a career out of it. If you're not prepared to do that, find a different summer job that doesn't involve you operating a harvester setup, because this idea is a non-starter whether you like to hear it or not.

You need to learn to walk before you run. If you're studying robotics you're a smart fella. Get a summer job that will support your chosen field of study. If you don't want to do that (even though you should), go and get your CS courses done and see if you can get a summer job working for a forestry contractor or as a groundsman for an arborist/tree surgeon/tree service company. But forget about renting a machine. You're not going to get any harvesting work with it. You'll just be giving your neighbour money to make his payments with while the machine sits idle. That's the long and short of it.

BogBoy84

BogBoy84 wrote: »

Is this a common thing for diggers with harvesting heads to throw tracks? I've never seen it happen on sites etc but I haven't seen or worked with a digger with a harvesting head on it, how would that situation normally be resolved?

That right there will be enough to show anyone who's looking that you're not ready to be taking a machine into a forest.

BogBoy84

JayZeus wrote: »

That right there will be enough to show anyone who's looking that you're not ready to be taking a machine into a forest.

I never claimed to be an expert about machinery or that I knew everything, but I said I was willing to learn.

Instead of looking down on me as a dumb kid, why don't you offer me some advice about fixing tracks? The only reason I don't know something is because I haven't experienced it or nobody has shown me how to do it.

You are right that I have limited experience, but didn't everybody at one stage?

It's not a reality check I need and you don't have to explain to me how the world works, I just need experience and advice.

BogBoy84

JayZeus wrote: »

Are you looking for sympathy or advice? Real world stuff now, right? You're a 19 year old college student, have no training or experience in forestry operations, want to hire a digger and a harvester head from a neighbour for the summer and expect someone to let you loose on a commercial crop. And you want to do that for your 4 month summer holiday, but not actually full-time year round, right?

I applaud your sense of confidence, but you need to slow down there a bit.

Everyone has to start somewhere but the forester or owner is the person who gets to decide if you start or not. Nobody is going to let you start with your rented machine and some 'ah here'. If you're serious about this, go to the courses in Ballyhaise and make a career out of it. If you're not prepared to do that, find a different summer job that doesn't involve you operating a harvester setup, because this idea is a non-starter whether you like to hear it or not.

You need to learn to walk before you run. If you're studying robotics you're a smart fella. Get a summer job that will support your chosen field of study. If you don't want to do that (even though you should), go and get your CS courses done and see if you can get a summer job working for a forestry contractor or as a groundsman for an arborist/tree surgeon/tree service company. But forget about renting a machine. You're not going to get any harvesting work with it. You'll just be giving your neighbour money to make his payments with while the machine sits idle. That's the long and short of it.

I think you have misunderstood my idea. I want to have the business running full time, but I am physically only driving the machinery during the summer. I have enough time during the week and at weekends to be sourcing forestry and so on, but I don't have the time to be driving the machinery.

I know I have no experience with timber harvesting, that's why I came here to ask peoples opinions on what I could do. I never said I expected somebody to let me loose on a commercial crop, I of course was going to have the necessary safe passes and driver training done before I enter a forest. And no, before you ask, I am not doing this just so I can drive tractors and machines.

Why is renting a machine such a big no go for you? I'm sure the forest owner wouldn't care if I owned or rented the machine, as long as I had one and got the job done.

I have talked to other people about this and talked through what I want to do and they said it was a good idea. I don't see why you think this idea is a non starter because I want to rent a machine.

The only reason renting was an option while I started was to keep the setup cost as low as possible.

lab man

BogBoy84 wrote:

Instead of looking down on me as a dumb kid, why don't you offer me some advice about fixing tracks? The only reason I don't know something is because I haven't experienced it or nobody has shown me how to do it.

U cant learn to put a track on in an internet forum , simples

BogBoy84

lab man wrote: »

U cant learn to put a track on in an internet forum , simples

I would agree, but as I am the only person in my family that is into machinery, I didn't really know where else to go. No one local either, my local plant hire guy would be too busy to be showing me how to put tracks back on.

BogBoy84

BogBoy84 wrote: »

I never claimed to be an expert about machinery or that I knew everything, but I said I was willing to learn.

Instead of looking down on me as a dumb kid, why don't you offer me some advice about fixing tracks? The only reason I don't know something is because I haven't experienced it or nobody has shown me how to do it.

You are right that I have limited experience, but didn't everybody at one stage?

It's not a reality check I need and you don't have to explain to me how the world works, I just need experience and advice.

I’m not looking down on you as a dumb kid but a reality check is precisely what you need here.

You asked for advice and the benefit of others experience.

I gave you exactly that as have others.

You’re just choosing to dismiss it and act like a victim because you don’t like what you’re being told. That’s a bit silly really.

It’s simple, you won’t get work running a harvester, so don’t even think about hiring machinery. You don’t even have the basics covered off when it comes to a tracked excavator. Watching youtube videos and expecting someone here to teach you how to remount a track on a machine isn’t going to overcome the obstacle which is your lack of experience and training.

If you want to work in forestry as a harvester operator you need to go and get suitable training and put in the effort you need to earn the start you seem to think you deserve. It’s not a ‘summer job’, so you’d have to decide it’s something you want to do seriously/right. If you won’t do that, well, you’d best plan to do something else for your summer.

You understand this. Get your CS basic certs and see where that goes. Forget about running a harvester. It’s not going to happen unless you go do it full time.

timfromtang

BogBoy84 wrote: »

It's not a reality check I need and you don't have to explain to me how the world works, I just need experience and advice.

Hi BogBoy,
See pm sent.
tim

$kilkenny

Hey BoyBoy, have you ever sat in a harvester before?
Getting the machinery and all is one thing and operating it but constant work is the problem. You don't need a harvester ticket to drive machines on private land but you do if you work for Coillte. It always helps to have it all the same.

Do you know how guys price jobs etc in the industry? It's hard to price what you aren't sure of yourself. I know you need to start somewhere but a ton or a m3 of timber are 2 completely different things.

If you want, drop me a PM and come down to Kilkenny sometime and I can give you a run through on our own machines and things like that. To be honest it's great that your taking an interest in out industry and we do need alot more guys your age involved, I'm quite young at 24 like.

I would be afraid of where you are starting, possibly getting expeirence driving a harvester first would be a good option. Get to know the industry, people, equipment and general tricks of the trade for doing the job before forking out on equipment.

I would suggest biting the bullet and purchasing a harvester, a Timberjack 1070D, 2000 to 2005 would be going for 50k or less. It's more expensive but you have a proper machine, just be weary on cost of parts.

We sometimes get guys in, train them up and give them jobs driving machines once they are ready both here and in scotland. There is always that option also.

BogBoy84

$kilkenny wrote: »

Hey BoyBoy, have you ever sat in a harvester before?
Getting the machinery and all is one thing and operating it but constant work is the problem. You don't need a harvester ticket to drive machines on private land but you do if you work for Coillte. It always helps to have it all the same.

Do you know how guys price jobs etc in the industry? It's hard to price what you aren't sure of yourself. I know you need to start somewhere but a ton or a m3 of timber are 2 completely different things.

If you want, drop me a PM and come down to Kilkenny sometime and I can give you a run through on our own machines and things like that. To be honest it's great that your taking an interest in out industry and we do need alot more guys your age involved, I'm quite young at 24 like.

I would be afraid of where you are starting, possibly getting expeirence driving a harvester first would be a good option. Get to know the industry, people, equipment and general tricks of the trade for doing the job before forking out on equipment.

I would suggest biting the bullet and purchasing a harvester, a Timberjack 1070D, 2000 to 2005 would be going for 50k or less. It's more expensive but you have a proper machine, just be weary on cost of parts.

We sometimes get guys in, train them up and give them jobs driving machines once they are ready both here and in scotland. There is always that option also.

Hi Gary,

Thanks so much for your offer, that's the kind of advice and experience I was hoping for.

I'll send you an email there.

handlemaster

I would think the Timber crop is a valuable asset and while everyone has to start some where I would think the man who has invested heavily in his timber crop would want someone in there who knows the crop and how to use a machine expertly.

JohnBoy

How much experience have you on a digger? would it be hours? days? weeks? or months of seat time?

If you want to go down the digger based harvesting route I'd suggest first you get good on a digger, it's probably going to be easier to get some part time work there too.



JayZeus could do with working on his diplomacy maybe a bit, but he's not far off in what he's saying. walk before you run is all.