Air tight air vent

metricspaces

Could anyone recommend an air vent cover that is air tight when closed?

I have an air vent in my living room. I understand this is needed as I have a stove fire. When the fire is not on I'd like to close air vent and not have any air or noise coming in.

I've attached a picture of my air vent. When it's closed the is still lots of air coming in. Which is not what I want in winter when trying to heat the house.

sydthebeat

you are NOT ALLOWED to have a closeable vent in a room with a combustible heat source.

TGD J

1.2 Air supply to appliances

1.2.1 Each appliance should be:
(a) room sealed, or
(b) contained in a room space or compartment
which has a permanent ventilation opening.
If this opening is to an adjoining room or
space, then the adjoining room or space
should have a permanent opening of the
same size direct to external air. However,
in the case of fixed appliances designed to
discharge the products of combustion to
the room or space in which they are
located, i.e. fixed flueless appliances, the
room or space containing the appliance
should have permanent ventilation
openings directly to the outside air.

metricspaces

sydthebeat wrote: »

you are NOT ALLOWED to have a closeable vent in a room with a combustible heat source.

TGD J

The quote mentions a "fixed flueless appliances". My stove fire has a flue, it is not discharging combustion fumes into the room.

This is a 2017 build house which came with the stove fire, flue, and existing closeable air vent. Assuming all building regulation compliant.

I already have a closeable vent, I am looking for suggestions of ones that are actually air tight when closed.

Odelay

What about this bit?

1.2.1 Each appliance should be:
(a) room sealed, or



What is room sealed?

Markcheese

Odelay wrote: »

What about this bit?

1.2.1 Each appliance should be:
(a) room sealed, or



What is room sealed?

As in not drawing air from the room (so an external air supply), and closed combustion chamber and flue, (a stove basically but not an open fire)

wizardman

From your picture it appears the stove takes air for combustion through that vent from the outside. You must have a permanent air supply and a non closable vent. The current vent is incorrect and must be made non closable / fixed in the open position or replaced.

You could potentially without an adequate air supply create carbon monoxide leading to possible fatality. You should by law also have a carbon monoxide detector.

metricspaces

So, any recommendations of vents that are actually air tight when closed ?

wizardman

metricspaces wrote: »

So, any recommendations of vents that are actually air tight when closed ?

I don't think you understand the seriousness of the air vent.

metricspaces

wizardman wrote: »

I don't think you understand the seriousness of the air vent.

I do understand. It only applies when fire is actually in use though, which is almost never. I also have a carbo monoxide detector.

I live in an area of high winds and want to be able to close the vent during high winds, of course when the fire is not on.

Are there any air tight vents people would recommend?

sydthebeat

metricspaces wrote: »

Are there any air tight vents people would recommend?

No, because in your case fitting one would be illegal.

TheBoyConor

That's not the point. A closeable vent would be fail deadly because, sooner or later, someone will light the stove and forget to open the vent, or someone will close the vent with the fire on. Then the stove cannot draw enough combustion air and may smoke and release CO into the room and then you are relying solely on the alarm to keep you safe.

Excuse the pun but you are playing with fire my friend.

Odelay

TheBoyConor wrote: »

That's not the point. A closeable vent would be fail deadly because, sooner or later, someone will light the stove and forget to open the vent, or someone will close the vent with the fire on. Then the stove cannot draw enough combustion air and may smoke and release CO into the room and then you are relying solely on the alarm to keep you safe.

Excuse the pun but you are playing with fire my friend.

That is a very good point. It’s all well and good until someone not familiar with the situation lights the fire.

metricspaces

TheBoyConor wrote: »

, sooner or later, someone will light the stove and forget to open the ven.

Yeah fair enough point!

Is there anything I can put on the vent to reduce draught (and ideally noise)?

If my stove had an external air supply then I could get rid of this vent right? What would it take to retrofit an external air supply?

sydthebeat

metricspaces wrote: »

Yeah fair enough point!

Is there anything I can put on the vent to reduce draught (and ideally noise)?

Something like this?

http://rts.vents.co.uk/blog/product-details/ac10hpcw-rytons-cowled-125mm-aircore-with-controllable-lookryt-panel/

sydthebeat

metricspaces wrote: »

If my stove had an external air supply then I could get rid of this vent right? What would it take to retrofit an external air supply?

Could be awkward.

First off the stove needs to have the facility to receive extrenal air intake. If not your looking at a new stove.

Works wise, you need an inlet pipe at least equal in area to the outlet to flue.
Usually these pipes are embedded in the concrete floor during construction.

If the stove is on an external wall this might be handy to drill...however you would probably need to come up under the stove, so height could be an issue too.

Markcheese

Yup, usually something like a 4 or 5 inch plastic pipe under the floor coming up under the stove.. And then fitting it... Your stóve will need to be compatable with having an external air supply..

Basically it'll cost a fortune, for something you don't use often..

wizardman

metricspaces wrote: »

I do understand. It only applies when fire is actually in use though, which is almost never. I also have a carbo monoxide detector.

I live in an area of high winds and want to be able to close the vent during high winds, of course when the fire is not on.

Are there any air tight vents people would recommend?

No it doesn't only apply when the stove is in use. A permanent fixed air supply. Can't be any clearer.

dathi

metricspaces wrote: »

If my stove had an external air supply then I could get rid of this vent right? What would it take to retrofit an external air supply?

no the non closable vent is taken from "part J of building regulations heat producing appliances," which says you must have a non closable vent ,if you replace this with an external air supply to your stove you would still have to comply with "part F ventilation", of the building regulations requiring ventilation in the room

metricspaces

sydthebeat wrote: »

Something like this?

http://rts.vents.co.uk/blog/product-details/ac10hpcw-rytons-cowled-125mm-aircore-with-controllable-lookryt-panel/

How about one of these on the outside of the house? https://www.lenehans.ie/ext-cowled-wall-out-brown-vent.html

Same here, nicer in black https://www.amazon.co.uk/Blauberg-UK-155X155-100HK-Ventilation/dp/B06WGXK5QD

Lumen

Or black hole vent.

metricspaces

Lumen wrote: »

Or black hole vent.

Thanks. Sounds like a good solution https://www.goodwins.ie/products/anti-draught-black-hole-ventilator-bm725-white-3461398.html

https://www.goodwins.ie/sites/admin/plugins/elfinder/files/goodwins/products/downloads/3461398.pdf

BryanF

Is this for your new build?

Is your provisional BER (Part L compliance) working with natural ventilation?

Or

are you retro-fitting 6’’ holes in to an existing house?

Fighting Tao

I used to live in an apartment with the bedrooms east facing. Gales were blowing in some times through one of those quite useless closeable vents. A sheet of A4 paper slid down behind it sorted the issue on the windy nights.

sydthebeat

BryanF wrote: »

Is this for your new build?

Is your provisional BER (Part L compliance) working with natural ventilation?

Or

are you retro-fitting 6’’ holes in to an existing house?

Don't call it a provisional BER!!!!!!!!!!



A provisional BER is something completely different.

metricspaces

BryanF wrote: »

Is this for your new build?

Is your provisional BER (Part L compliance) working with natural ventilation?

Or

are you retro-fitting 6’’ holes in to an existing house?

It's for a house that was built in 2017. Retro-fitting

The vents for the utility room and bathrooms also have a fair bit of draught coming through. But these are just for the extractor fan right? To get moisture out rather than get air in. Either way, I guess i could fit black hole vents to these also?

BryanF

sydthebeat wrote: »

Don't call it a provisional BER!!!!!!!!!!



A provisional BER is something completely different.

https://www.seai.ie/resources/publications/BER-Assessors-Code-of-Practice-New.pdf
It’s referenced here?

BryanF

metricspaces wrote: »

It's for a house that was built in 2017. Retro-fitting

The vents for the utility room and bathrooms also have a fair bit of draught coming through. But these are just for the extractor fan right? To get moisture out rather than get air in. Either way, I guess i could fit black hole vents to these also?

What was your ACH result and which part L regs are you expected to comply with?

metricspaces

BryanF wrote: »

What was your ACH result and which part L regs are you expected to comply with?

It's an A3 rated house.is all I know. How do either of these things affect whether I can fit black hole vents?

This is nothing new or complex. I simply want to reduce draught & noise coming in through vents and looking for recommendations from people who have encountered same issue and resolved it.

sydthebeat

BryanF wrote: »

https://www.seai.ie/resources/publications/BER-Assessors-Code-of-Practice-New.pdf
It’s referenced here?

im not saying it doesnt exist.... im saying it has NOTHING to do with Building Regulations and Part L (sorry for the emphasis)

a provisional BER is a temporary BER certificate provided to houses "sold off the plans" ie dont exist. They are required to comply with SI 666 of 2006

this is the definition of a provisional BER taken straight from that SI above:

“provisional BER certificate” is a certificate in a prescribed form respecting a proposed new building which is held and may be viewed in electronic form on the BER register on the basis of a BER assessment of the plans and specifications for the building prior to its construction being completed and may be reproduced and issued by or on behalf of the issuing authority in printed form;

a provisional BER certifcate and advisory report will make absolutely no reference to compliance with, or non compliance with, building regulations.



what you should be calling it is a "Preliminary Part L assessment".....
thats whats required under L3 of the second schedule of SI 259 of 2011

its a bugbear of mine when these get mixed up.... normally i wouldn't care only that the title "provisional BER" already exists to describe something completely different than what youre describing.

BryanF

metricspaces wrote: »

It's for a house that was built in 2017. Retro-fitting

The vents for the utility room and bathrooms also have a fair bit of draught coming through. But these are just for the extractor fan right? To get moisture out rather than get air in. Either way, I guess i could fit black hole vents to these also?

metricspaces wrote: »

It's an A3 rated house.is all I know. How do either of these things affect whether I can fit black hole vents?

This is nothing new or complex. I simply want to reduce draught & noise coming in through vents and looking for recommendations from people who have encountered same issue and resolved it.

See link, what the air-tightness test result ?
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=109771502&postcount=10

It’s been interesting following your design build. Why didn’t you go with mvhr ?

metricspaces

BryanF wrote: »

See link, what the air-tightness test result ?
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=109771502&postcount=10

It’s been interesting following your design build. Why didn’t you go with mvhr ?

You have lost me. I don't understand what you are referring to in the link or regards design build\mvhr. This is a house I bought?

You asked about my ACH result. I understand this is air tightness figure? I managed to get XML file for my BER, see relevant section below:

sydthebeat

metricspaces wrote: »

You have lost me. I don't understand what you are referring to in the link or regards design build\mvhr. This is a house I bought?

You asked about my ACH result. I understand this is air tightness figure? I managed to get XML file for my BER, see relevant section below:

thats a particularly poor ACH result

BryanF

At least the 4’’ holes are ok

metricspaces

sydthebeat wrote: »

thats a particularly poor ACH result

There are a few figures with ac/h referenced. Which figure is the overall air tightness figure? The 0.239 I'm guessing ?

When you say it's particularly poor, any more context so I can understand how poor? What is typical ac/h figure for A3 rated house (semi-detached, timber frame, 110sqm, constructed before 2017)?

A quick Google tells me Part L 2011 specifies infiltration due to structure to be 0.35 ac/h. Figure for my house is 0.239. How is my figure particularly poor?

According to this link here http://2eva.ie/air-tightness-test/ my ac/h figure seems particularly good?

Best practise in domestic dwellings calls for an ac/h rate of:

3.0 ac/h – natural ventilation (i.e. with wall vents) – very easy to achieve
1.5 ac/h – with mechanical ventilation
0.6 ac/h – Passive House Standard

metricspaces

BryanF wrote: »

At least the 4’’ holes are ok

What 4" holes are you referring to? And what makes you say they are ok?

sydthebeat

metricspaces wrote: »

A quick Google tells me Part L 2011 specifies infiltration due to structure to be 0.35 ac/h. Figure for my house is 0.239. How is my figure particularly poor?

The 0.35 is the absolute maximum allowed under building reg compliance.
It equates to an air infiltration rate of 7m3/hr/m2... So picture that... For every square meter of the house.... 7 cubic meters of air is passing through the fabric every hour. That's a kin to a hole the size of a 5c coin being drilled into your walls and roof at every meter center...

Your figure of 0.239 equates to an air inflation rate of 4.78m3/hr/m2..... Which to me shows a lack of any stragety to prevent air leakage and possibly poor workmanship or finishing practises.

It just means you will be losing most of the heat in your house through air draughts....this costing you more to run the house

metricspaces

Ok. So my ac/h figure more than satifies Part L.

What is typical ac/h figure for A3 rated house (semi-detached, timber frame, 110sqm, constructed before 2017)?

Every figure is relative. To say my ac/h is particularly bad it needs a reference with respect to which it is particularly bad in comparison to. With respect to Part L it is clearly not particularly bad as it is well under max allowed value. So what is your reference when you say 0.239 ac/h is particularly bad?

We are talking about a standard semi-d built by a developer. Not a passive house.

sydthebeat

metricspaces wrote: »

We are talking about a standard semi-d built by a developer.

And thus why is a particularly poor result.
Which is a pity because it's actually quite easy to make a timber frame house particularity air tight with not much extra cost.... But if course developers are only interested in maximising profit and not in maximising energy efficiency.

All my tender contracts have a min target air tightness of 3, which is an air change rate of 0. 15. Generally easy enough to achieve with ceiling membrane, ope taping and attention to detail in the workmanship.

I was once involved in a build of close to 3000 sq ft where the total air leakage was the size of an A5 sheet of paper.

metricspaces

sydthebeat wrote: »

And thus why is a particularly poor result.
.

Once again. In comparison to?

And what is typical ac/h figure for A3 rated house (semi-detached, timber frame, 110sqm, constructed before 2017)?

LauraWestCork

Hi all, probably totally wrong place to post so apologies if this is the case (feel free to move moderator). I'm looking for recommendations for air tightness testing in Cork.
Thanks any recommendations and advice much appreciated, getting deep retrofit done on 1970s bungalow.

WorldIsFalling

I have almost the same problem right now and before fixing it I wanted my vents to be cleared, so maybe someone knows good services out there in Canada?

muffler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119633315#Comment_119633315

You're on an Irish website

WorldIsFalling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119633552#Comment_119633552

oh, sorry, didn`t figured out ie stands for Ireland

Yellow_Fern

I know most of the comments here are old but there is a lot of shouting going on about the requirement for non closable vents but I have been told by leading ventilation firms that mechanical ventilation is an option in this situation. Is that untrue?

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119687913#Comment_119687913

In what situation?

Yellow_Fern

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119687944#Comment_119687944

For a room with combustion. if mechanical ventilation is not permitted, as there any mechanical ventilation system that can detect carbon monoxide and open for it?

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119840153#Comment_119840153

Liked any building regulation, if you are doing something that isn't covered by the prima facia compliant TGDs, it's up to you to prove to the building control officer that your solution still complies with the regulation.

So in regards to the ventilation building regulations, the actual regulation states

"Adequate and effective means of ventilation shall be provided for people in buildings. This shall be achieved by:

(a) limiting the moisture content of the air within the building so that it does not contribute to condensation and mould growth, and

(b) limiting the concentration of harmful pollutants in the air within the building.

so if you want to offer a solution which i snot "permanent non closable background ventilation" which the TGD offers as prima facia compliance, then its up to you to get this confirmed with your local BCO