Removing wall in an apartment

Jack_92

Hello.

I went sale agreed on an apartment a few weeks ago and currently waiting for the contracts. I was hoping to do some renovations before I move in. I was planning to replace flooring and tiles and to remove, which seems to be a non-load bearing wall between the living room and dining room. The apartment is located on the top (third) floor and there is an access to the attic. There seems to be a concrete beam on the top of the wall and a column on the side but everywhere else sounds like it's a timber frame wall with plaster on both sides. I would touch neither the beam nor the column. Would I need to contact Management Company now to see whether it would be even possible? Would our solicitor be of any help in this regard or should I just wait till the contracts are signed?

Thank you

happyfriday74

If its not a load bearing wall you should be ok.

However you need to tip off the management company you are doing this. The long lease you sign when you buy will have a clause in it requiring you to get consent from the management company for any alterations.

Best of luck with the buy

Needhome

If you have the keys i dont see why not.but your solicitor would tell you straight away that you can or cant.

is_that_so

happyfriday74 wrote: »

If its not a load bearing wall you should be ok.

However you need to tip off the management company you are doing this. The long lease you sign when you buy will have a clause in it requiring you to get consent from the management company for any alterations.

Best of luck with the buy

My understanding of the situation is that you own what's within the four walls. Anything else is the purview of the management company.

SozBbz

is_that_so wrote: »

My understanding of the situation is that you own what's within the four walls. Anything else is the purview of the management company.

Management companies still have a say so about structural changes in most cases - in case an owner does something stupid that could potentially effect others I guess.

In my development we had someone want to open up their kitchen/diner into their living room to make the whole downstairs effectively open plan (duplex apartment).

We (the OMC) asked them for an engineers report to state that the work would wouldnt have any structural impact and also their builders insurance. They gave us a timeframe for the work and details of their plans to ensure neighbours were minimally affected, ie noise mitigation, skip hire, etc.

Once all of the above was kosher, we gave the go ahead.

Speaking as a director as an OMC, I tend not to really care what people do within the four walls, but they have to satisfy us that the work is safe and won't impact other residents more than necessary. Once thats in place, we tend to give the green light.


Go about things the right way OP, and any reasonable OMC won't stand in your way.

JimmyMW

SozBbz wrote: »

Management companies still have a say so about structural changes in most cases - in case an owner does something stupid that could potentially effect others I guess.

In my development we had someone want to open up their kitchen/diner into their living room to make the whole downstairs effectively open plan (duplex apartment).

We (the OMC) asked them for an engineers report to state that the work would wouldnt have any structural impact and also their builders insurance. They gave us a timeframe for the work and details of their plans to ensure neighbours were minimally affected, ie noise mitigation, skip hire, etc.

Once all of the above was kosher, we gave the go ahead.

Speaking as a director as an OMC, I tend not to really care what people do within the four walls, but they have to satisfy us that the work is safe and won't impact other residents more than necessary. Once thats in place, we tend to give the green light.


Go about things the right way OP, and any reasonable OMC won't stand in your way.

Having the engineers report check compliance with the fire cert and disabled access cert too would be a must IMO

antiskeptic

And be careful you don't make the mistake I made advising a friend on such matters. He knocked on the wall, found it hollow and figured, per my advice, that it was a stud wall.

He knocked a hole in it, found block in behind the plasterboard (plasterboard used to line the block) and then proceeded to knock the block! I got a call when he couldn't get out of the room - the ceiling of the bungalow starting to sag once the block was pulled out, jamming the door.

Pull a socket off and have a look

godtabh

I did a job for some one like this a couple of years ago.

Client did it without asking permission.

Management company threaten an injunction of it wasn't restored to the original or provide 3rd party independent assurances, a bond and refund on all their consultancy fees. There was also a note placed on the block insurance policy.

The lads came back not so long ago looking for some decelerations to be signed as he was sell. I wont sign them as I didnt witness construction. He is no struggling to sell.

Jack_92

JimmyMW wrote: »

Having the engineers report check compliance with the fire cert and disabled access cert too would be a must IMO

Would it require the fire cert if it's non structural wall and there is no door neither? it's just a stud wall with some light switches. The best best is probably to prepare a set of drawings and note things to be done and discuss it with the Management Company. I was just wondering whether there is something to be asked about it our solicitor before closing

the_syco

Jack_92 wrote: »

The apartment is located on the top (third) floor and there is an access to the attic.

Having access to the attic, and being allowed to access the attic can be two separate things. The former may be door in the ceiling, the latter can mean you're allowed to store things there. Have your solicitor check with the management company.

godtabh

Jack_92 wrote: »

Would it require the fire cert if it's non structural wall and there is no door neither? it's just a stud wall with some light switches. The best best is probably to prepare a set of drawings and note things to be done and discuss it with the Management Company. I was just wondering whether there is something to be asked about it our solicitor before closing

Possibly if it's a fire wall.

JimmyMW

Jack_92 wrote: »

Would it require the fire cert if it's non structural wall and there is no door neither? it's just a stud wall with some light switches. The best best is probably to prepare a set of drawings and note things to be done and discuss it with the Management Company. I was just wondering whether there is something to be asked about it our solicitor before closing

Being a stud wall would not necessary mean its not a compartment wall, would be best to have the engineer check

antiskeptic

And there is such a thing as a structural stud wall.

For what it's worth, there's a top floor apartment in Burnaby Mews Greystones currently up as sale agreed on myhome. The owner got permission from the management company to take over the attic above and did a worthwhile conversion on it (two small bedrooms)

Jack_92

antiskeptic wrote: »

And there is such a thing as a structural stud wall.

For what it's worth, there's a top floor apartment in Burnaby Mews Greystones currently up as sale agreed on myhome. The owner got permission from the management company to take over the attic above and did a worthwhile conversion on it (two small bedrooms)

Very interesting. But I assume any sort of adjustments of the current apartment's layout would have to be discussed with the management company after we signed the contract.

I imagine it would be impossible to obtain any permission from them while in process of purchasing.

Is there any way I could request current fire safety plan and double check whether this is a compartment wall?

Claw Hammer

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/apartment-owner-must-dismantle-wall-division-1.253567

Jack_92

Claw Hammer wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/apartment-owner-must-dismantle-wall-division-1.253567

I could be wrong but making alterations consisting of internal reconfiguring work (non-structural alteration) and making alterations that intensify the use of the apartment (e.g. making another bedroom) are two different things.

Claw Hammer

Jack_92 wrote: »

I could be wrong but making alterations consisting of internal reconfiguring work (non-structural alteration) and making alterations that intensify the use of the apartment (e.g. making another bedroom) are two different things.

Maybe so, but it could be costly to put it to the test.

SozBbz

Jack_92 wrote: »

I could be wrong but making alterations consisting of internal reconfiguring work (non-structural alteration) and making alterations that intensify the use of the apartment (e.g. making another bedroom) are two different things.

I would view them as different.

Like in the example I cited earlier, we had no real difficulty with an owner seeking to make his living space open plan, once the right certificates etc were in place and he was using a builders who had insurance etc etc - basically going about it properly.

I would certainly deny my for anything that changes the nature of the property, like adding an extra bedroom at the expense of living accommodation. This changes the nature of the property entirely. If you think back to the initial planning permission for any development, certain calculations about occupancy are made by planners based on the lay out. There are also certain minimum standards around amenity space that need to be factored in. I don't believe our board of directors would ever allow something like that. Also, if the occupancy of each unit increased by 1 person (due to extra bedroom) that would have a knock on effect on communal amenities like parking, bins etc. I just cannot see a scenario when this would be accepted by me or my fellow directors, and I think OMCs would generally thing like this.

Also, if I ever planned to sell the place on, I would never go against the OMC, its simple not worth the hassle/risk.

Gumbo

SozBbz wrote: »

I would view them as different.

Like in the example I cited earlier, we had no real difficulty with an owner seeking to make his living space open plan, once the right certificates etc were in place and he was using a builders who had insurance etc etc - basically going about it properly.

I would certainly deny my for anything that changes the nature of the property, like adding an extra bedroom at the expense of living accommodation. This changes the nature of the property entirely. If you think back to the initial planning permission for any development, certain calculations about occupancy are made by planners based on the lay out. There are also certain minimum standards around amenity space that need to be factored in. I don't believe our board of directors would ever allow something like that. Also, if the occupancy of each unit increased by 1 person (due to extra bedroom) that would have a knock on effect on communal amenities like parking, bins etc. I just cannot see a scenario when this would be accepted by me or my fellow directors, and I think OMCs would generally thing like this.

Also, if I ever planned to sell the place on, I would never go against the OMC, its simple not worth the hassle/risk.

I would argue differently.
Did you guys, as the OMC get a revised Fire Safety Certificate?

The change to open plan involves the removal of the internal protected lobby and removes the 30 minute fire rated walls, which not only effects the apartment in question, but the apartment block as a whole.

When I was in Private Practice, we dealt with many alterations like this.

carr.r

Hello, 

I live in a two-storey building. However, it is the ground floor apartment and my apartment on the first floor. 

I want to knock the walls between my kitchen and living room. And make it an open plan. I want to go about it properly and get all the certificates, using builders with insurance, and, if necessary, contact the OMC to revise the Fire Safety Certificate.

I contacted the building manager, and he told me that I should get a structural engineer to tell me if it was load-bearing, and if not, I could go ahead. 

After a week of sending emails and requesting quotes, with almost no replies, I got an engineer who came to inspect and told me it is a non-load-bearing wall. However, he didn't send me any conclusion by email. 

I want to get some advice on where to start. What type of professional should I contact? How can I make sure I am compliant and won't have any problems in the future? 

Thank you