Do the school have a duty of care to make sure a child can enter and leave school saf

dcfc91

Currently dealing with a situation where a child was assaulted by another parent when leaving school. This happened outside the school gate, just after the child had left school and was with their parent.

The principal has said it is nothing to do with them as it happened outside school property. Also advised not to bother involving the gardai as they will likely do nothing about it either.

Surely the school have a duty of care to ensure that a child can safely enter and leave school safely without being harassed and assaulted by the parent of another child.

Big Bag of Chips

I'd think once the child is in the company of their parent, that it's then the parents responsibility to ensure the child is safely getting in/out of school.

If your child was assaulted, go to the guards.

dcfc91

Big Bag of Chips wrote: »

I'd think once the child is in the company of their parent, that it's then the parents responsibility to ensure the child is safely getting in/out of school.

If your child was assaulted, go to the guards.

This of course has already been done. A statement has been made. But the child is now terrified that they will be assaulted again walking in or out of school.

EmptyTree

dcfc91 wrote: »

Surely the school have a duty of care to ensure that a child can safely enter and leave school safely without being harassed and assaulted by the parent of another child.

Out of interest, in this specific instance, what measures would you expect the school to have to ensure a child can safely enter and leave?

Wesser

Parent should take responsibility if they were with the child.

Unreal that a parent would imply that the school is responsible !!

eviltwin

Wesser wrote: »

Parent should take responsibility if they were with the child.

Unreal that a parent would imply that the school is responsible !!

This.

Seriously, if you think your child is at risk then it's your responsibility to make sure he gets home safely. The school can't do anything once he's off the grounds.

And it goes without saying but report it to the gardai

dcfc91

Wesser wrote: »

Parent should take responsibility if they were with the child.

Unreal that a parent would imply that the school is responsible !!

At the very least they should call in the other parent and remind them of their responsibility as a stakeholder of the school. Children should not be being assaulted walking in and out of the school gate. This happened as the child was walking out of the gate.

An escort is provided to children in other countries where this has occurred so the child can feel safe walking in and out of the school.

mordeith

dcfc91 wrote: »

At the very least they should call in the other parent and remind them of their responsibility as a stakeholder of the school. Children should not be being assaulted walking in and out of the school gate. This happened as the child was walking out of the gate.

An escort is provided to children in other countries where this has occurred so the child can feel safe walking in and out of the school.

How far does the escort have to be. If the kid is walking half a mile home does the school need to make sure they get to their door? I'm afraid the school is right. Once not on school grounds it's not their problem.

harr

Once you step out the school gate it not the schools issue...the issue I would have is the recommendation from the school of not going to the guards about it.
Even if it happens on school grounds assault should be reported.
What age is the child ? I would imagine young enough if being collected from school gate.

starbaby2003

I understand you’re angry but I think you need to provide more background. Was this a random attack or was there history that the school was aware of ?

GreeBo

dcfc91 wrote: »

At the very least they should call in the other parent and remind them of their responsibility as a stakeholder of the school. Children should not be being assaulted walking in and out of the school gate. This happened as the child was walking out of the gate.

An escort is provided to children in other countries where this has occurred so the child can feel safe walking in and out of the school.

Why do you need an escort if the child is with their parent?

fall

If a child from the school had committed the assault the school might have been able to impose a sanction depending on the wording of their code of behaviour.

However as an adult was the perpetrator then this absolutely is a Garda matter. If I was the Principal I personally would err on the side of caution and write a child protection referral as a child has been assaulted.

One eyed Jack

dcfc91 wrote: »

Currently dealing with a situation where a child was assaulted by another parent when leaving school. This happened outside the school gate, just after the child had left school and was with their parent.

The principal has said it is nothing to do with them as it happened outside school property. Also advised not to bother involving the gardai as they will likely do nothing about it either.

Surely the school have a duty of care to ensure that a child can safely enter and leave school safely without being harassed and assaulted by the parent of another child.

They do, and it sounds like you’re being fobbed off by the Principal.

dcfc91

harr wrote: »

Once you step out the school gate it not the schools issue...the issue I would have is the recommendation from the school of not going to the guards about it.
Even if it happens on school grounds assault should be reported.
What age is the child ? I would imagine young enough if being collected from school gate.

Child is 7.

starbaby2003 wrote: »

I understand you’re angry but I think you need to provide more background. Was this a random attack or was there history that the school was aware of ?

There would be some history between the parents, but this would have been years ago, but nothing that was ever brought to school, kids play nicely together. Child was walking past the adult and the adult struck them, completely out of the blue.

GreeBo wrote: »

Why do you need an escort if the child is with their parent?

So that the child feels safe? And to deter the adult from repeating the assault. The adult had no issues hitting the child with its parent there.

fall wrote: »

If a child from the school had committed the assault the school might have been able to impose a sanction depending on the wording of their code of behaviour.

However as an adult was the perpetrator then this absolutely is a Garda matter. If I was the Principal I personally would err on the side of caution and write a child protection referral as a child has been assaulted.

Many schools now have a parent/stakeholder code of conduct, though this one doesn’t. I would agree that a child protection referall should be made.

The principal seemed to have no concern for the child involved, who was very upset after what happened, didn’t even ask if they were okay. I suspect they may want to wash their hands due to the nature of the person and their extended family.

wirelessdude01

Once the child has been handed over to the parent then the parent is responsible. Having said that the school probably does need to speak to the other parent, the child's parents and possibly both sets of parents together at some stage.

All of the above is probably null and void now that the guards are involved. What did the guards say?

dcfc91

Wesser wrote: »

Parent should take responsibility if they were with the child.

Unreal that a parent would imply that the school is responsible !!

I never said the school are responsible. I said that I thought they surely had a duty of care to make sure the child can get in and out of school without being assaulted and harassed. A small bit of concern for the child from them wouldn’t have gone astray either.

This child has spent all evening fretting about having to go to school tomorrow because there are afraid that they will be assaulted again. The Gardai have been contacted and a statement has been made.

dcfc91

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Once the child has been handed over to the parent then the parent is responsible. Having said that the school probably does need to speak to the other parent, the child's parents and possibly both sets of parents together at some stage.

All of the above is probably null and void now that the guards are involved. What did the guards say?

Gardai are taking it very seriously.

wirelessdude01

dcfc91 wrote:

Gardai are taking it very seriously.

What exactly does that mean? What did they actually say?

harr

dcfc91 wrote: »

Child is 7.



There would be some history between the parents, but this would have been years ago, but nothing that was ever brought to school, kids play nicely together. Child was walking past the adult and the adult struck them, completely out of the blue.



So that the child feels safe? And to deter the adult from repeating the assault. The adult had no issues hitting the child with its parent there.



Many schools now have a parent/stakeholder code of conduct, though this one doesn’t. I would agree that a child protection referall should be made.

The principal seemed to have no concern for the child involved, who was very upset after what happened, didn’t even ask if they were okay. I suspect they may want to wash their hands due to the nature of the person and their extended family.

If it’s an issue that the parents have history then I can see why the school would not want involvement.
Definitely should not be happening to an innocent child or in front of other kids.
The school should be insisting these individuals stay away from the school and maybe make arrangements for other family members to collect the kids if they can’t behave themselves while doing school run.

splinter65

Big Bag of Chips wrote: »

I'd think once the child is in the company of their parent, that it's then the parents responsibility to ensure the child is safely getting in/out of school.

If your child was assaulted, go to the guards.

Spot on big bag of chips

weldoninhio

dcfc91 wrote: »

I never said the school are responsible. I said that I thought they surely had a duty of care to make sure the child can get in and out of school without being assaulted and harassed. A small bit of concern for the child from them wouldn’t have gone astray either.

This child has spent all evening fretting about having to go to school tomorrow because there are afraid that they will be assaulted again. The Gardai have been contacted and a statement has been made.

They did ensure the child got out of school without being assaulted. It happened outside. Would you like the teacher to wrap the kid in bubble wrap and drop them home?

Babs13

I'd personally leave the school out of it if your not getting anywhere and concentrate on the Gardai. A grown man ? assaulting a 7 year old. That's very serious

I'd imagine it's quite easy for the school to keep out once it's outside and child is handed over to parent. I wouldn't be happy about it but I doubt there is anything that can be done there

I get the point of the schools responsibility has to end somewhere and if the child was knocked down by a passing car while with a parents they are not responsible. But a child assaulted by another child's parent is going to be an on going issue and I would like to think schools would be interested so as to make sure they are aware and able to take care of these children when in school

splinter65

dcfc91 wrote: »

This of course has already been done. A statement has been made. But the child is now terrified that they will be assaulted again walking in or out of school.

That’s for the parent of the child to deal with. That’s what parents are for. If the child was assaulted by the other parent outside the Library then is the Library responsible?

splinter65

One eyed Jack wrote: »

They do, and it sounds like you’re being fobbed off by the Principal.

How has the Principal got responsibilty for what happens to a child outside of the school outside of school hours, a child in the care of his parent?

dcfc91

splinter65 wrote: »

That’s for the parent of the child to deal with. That’s what parents are for. If the child was assaulted by the other parent outside the Library then is the Library responsible?

Come on now, parents are stakeholders in schools, many schools have a parents code of conduct.

weldoninhio

splinter65 wrote: »

How has the Principal got responsibilty for what happens to a child outside of the school outside of school hours, a child in the care of his parent?

100% agree. There seems to be no such thing as personal responsibility anymore, it’s always someone else’s fault/responsibility.

dcfc91

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

What exactly does that mean? What did they actually say?

They have taken statements and plan to press charges,

Wesser

So that the child feels safe? And to deter the adult from repeating the assault. The adult had no issues hitting the child with its parent there.


If the parent was not able to defend the child , how would an escort be able e to defend the child?

Your proposal.is ridiculous and over the top.

How would the presence of an escort defend the child... if the presence of a parent... who loves the child more than anything in the world.... Was not able to defend the child.

Babs13

splinter65 wrote: »

How has the Principal got responsibilty for what happens to a child outside of the school outside of school hours, a child in the care of his parent?

They don't. Absolutely not. But this is not likely to go away. Children first. You are not just responsible for a child's safety when they are in front of you. If you know of a danger to a child you are involved. Both kids here are potentially in danger from this parent

This parent will be in at plays etc. Should he be banned ? Certainly something the school should be considering

splinter65

dcfc91 wrote: »

At the very least they should call in the other parent and remind them of their responsibility as a stakeholder of the school. Children should not be being assaulted walking in and out of the school gate. This happened as the child was walking out of the gate.

An escort is provided to children in other countries where this has occurred so the child can feel safe walking in and out of the school.

Why can’t you or the other parent walk the child in and out of the school?

dcfc91

harr wrote: »

If it’s an issue that the parents have history then I can see why the school would not want involvement.
Definitely should not be happening to an innocent child or in front of other kids.
The school should be insisting these individuals stay away from the school and maybe make arrangements for other family members to collect the kids if they can’t behave themselves while doing school run.

We are in 100% agreement. Horrible for other children to have to witness as well as the child who was assulted.

Steve

Unless the school can be shown to have been willfully negligent then its the parent's burden to pursue those responsible through the courts imo.

There seems to be too much 'it was someone else's fault' going on here.

dcfc91

splinter65 wrote: »

Why can’t you or the other parent walk the child in and out of the school?

Again, having a parent with the child was no deterrent the first time. They stood in front of the parent and the child walking through the school gate and when they were walking past them struck the child. The child is walked in and out of the school every day by a parent.

splinter65

Babs13 wrote: »

They don't. Absolutely not. But this is not likely to go away. Children first. You are not just responsible for a child's safety when they are in front of you. If you know of a danger to a child you are involved. Both kids here are potentially in danger from this parent

This parent will be in at plays etc. Should he be banned ? Certainly something the school should be considering

Right now the Gardai have an allegation that a child was assaulted by an adult outside of school hours away from school property whilst in the company of his parent.
I’m sure the Gardai are dealing with the complaint appropriately.
Why do you think that the school principal can ban a parent from the school based on another parents allegations ?

One eyed Jack

splinter65 wrote: »

How has the Principal got responsibilty for what happens to a child outside of the school outside of school hours, a child in the care of his parent?

The Principal on their own isn’t directly responsible for what happens to a child outside of the school outside of school hours, but the school, represented by the Board of Management, are certainly responsible for the welfare of all the children in the school, on or off school property.

dcfc91

Babs13 wrote: »

They don't. Absolutely not. But this is not likely to go away. Children first. You are not just responsible for a child's safety when they are in front of you. If you know of a danger to a child you are involved. Both kids here are potentially in danger from this parent

This parent will be in at plays etc. Should he be banned ? Certainly something the school should be considering

Thank you. Nobody is asking the school to take responsibility for what happened, the only person responsible is the one who hit the child. But this is a child who should be able to walk and out of school without being assulted. It’s a dreadful situation.

dcfc91

splinter65 wrote: »

Right now the Gardai have an allegation that a child was assaulted by an adult outside of school hours away from school property whilst in the company of his parent.
I’m sure the Gardai are dealing with the complaint appropriately.
Why do you think that the school principal can ban a parent from the school based on another parents allegations ?

The gardai are doing a great job. However, the problem is that while the investigation and prosecution goes on this child still has to go to school. And this parent has made it unsafe for them to walk in and out of the school gate. And will continue to do so, they have form for this kind of thing.

daheff

dcfc91 wrote: »

The principal has said it is nothing to do with them as it happened outside school property. Also advised not to bother involving the gardai as they will likely do nothing about it either.

This tells me all you need to know. Take the child to hospital, then go to Gardai & then report the incident to Dept of Education & Tulsa.

Steve

dcfc91 wrote: »

Thank you. Nobody is asking the school to take responsibility for what happened, the only person responsible is the one who hit the child. But this is a child who should be able to walk and out of school without being assulted. It’s a dreadful situation.

Not saying it's acceptable in any way, all the school can do in real terms about it is the same as any other citizen and that is to report it to the authorities.

Would you prefer if the 'school' employed 'security staff' who - at their discretion - could sanction parents for actions they didn't like? or would you prefer the law was upheld by those actually tasked and empowered with upholding it?

splinter65

dcfc91 wrote: »

Again, having a parent with the child was no deterrent the first time. They stood in front of the parent and the child walking through the school gate and when they were walking past them struck the child. The child is walked in and out of the school every day by a parent.

You’re looking for someone else to deal with an issue for your child that is your issue to deal with. The school can’t act against the other parent on your say so.

splinter65

Babs13 wrote: »

They don't. Absolutely not. But this is not likely to go away. Children first. You are not just responsible for a child's safety when they are in front of you. If you know of a danger to a child you are involved. Both kids here are potentially in danger from this parent

This parent will be in at plays etc. Should he be banned ? Certainly something the school should be considering

If the principal banned every parent that another parent complains about, with no Garda report to refer to, how do you think that would pan out? For the school I mean?

Wesser

dcfc91 wrote: »

Again, having a parent with the child was no deterrent the first time. They stood in front of the parent and the child walking through the school gate and when they were walking past them struck the child. The child is walked in and out of the school every day by a parent.

If having a parent with tbe child was no deterrent ... then what could the school.posdibl6y do that would be a deterrent?

Surely there is no greater deterrent than a Parent?

lawred2

Whatever about the duty of care - why on earth would the principle discourage going to the guards?

A child was assaulted by an adult..

Bizarre to discourage getting the guards involved.

Unless there was a cultural element to this?

Peregrinus

dcfc91 wrote: »

The gardai are doing a great job. However, the problem is that while the investigation and prosecution goes on this child still has to go to school. And this parent has made it unsafe for them to walk in and out of the school gate. And will continue to do so, they have form for this kind of thing.

The bottom line here is that the school stands in loco parentis. Which means, among other things, that any duty of care which the school has is the same duty of care that the child's parent has. And if the parent was actually present on the occasion then (a) the school is off the hook, and (b) if the assault on the child is attributable to anybody's want of care, it's the parent's want of care.

Stop trying to analyse this in terms of the school being in breach of a legal duty. Seriously, it will take you very far down a blind alley. Yes, the school may have a role to play in resolving this situation - hard to say what role, since we have no real picture of the situation - but bleating about duty of care and framing the whole thing as a liablity for the school can only make the school defensive and anagonistic, which is going to be no help at all to the child.

Victor

In practical terms, are there alternative entrances (or times) that could be allocated to both sides.

The J Stands for Jay

eviltwin wrote: »

The school can't do anything once he's off the grounds. i

It never stops them from trying to discipline kids for things that happened outside the school, outside school hours.

Peregrinus

McGaggs wrote: »

It never stops them from trying to discipline kids for things that happened outside the school, outside school hours.

Yes, but that's because the school has an authority over pupils that it doesn't have over their parents.

Teddy Daniels

Sorry op but did a grown man hit your 7 year old son? Is that what happened ?