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New Zealand

  • 15-03-2019 10:02am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,737 ✭✭✭ jacothelad


    My heart goes out to our brothers and sisters in New Zealand on this terrible morning.


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 11,603 ✭✭✭✭ stephen_n


    Oh my god that’s awful, how are people so filled with hate.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,564 ✭✭✭✭ Buer


    I really don't associate NZ with this type of incident; out of all the devleoped world, I would imagine they're near the top of the list of least likely places for a radical terrorist attack.

    Utterly shocking event which is incredible in its callousness. Christchurch has only really put itself back together following the earthquake back in 2011. This is an altogether more appalling incident, however.

    Sympathies to our NZ contingent.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,603 ✭✭✭✭ stephen_n


    Buer wrote: »
    I really don't associate NZ with this type of incident; out of all the devleoped world, I would imagine they're near the top of the list of least likely places for a radical terrorist attack.

    Utterly shocking event which is incredible in its callousness. Christchurch has only really put itself back together following the earthquake back in 2011. This is an altogether more appalling incident, however.

    Sympathies to our NZ contingent.

    The terrorist is Australian apparently.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,553 ✭✭✭✭ errlloyd


    50 victims all from one small segment (Islamic kiwis). Its going to be hugely inpactful on that community. Its going to be hard to heal. On the plus side, I can think of no Western Country better able to reach across community barriers than New Zealand.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,230 ✭✭✭✭ Venjur


    Sympathies to the Kiwi's on the forum.


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  • Subscribers Posts: 36,271 ✭✭✭✭ sydthebeat


    Poor christchurch is getting a terrible battering over the last few years..... thoughts are with our friends there and to the kiwis here


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,191 ✭✭✭ swiwi_


    errlloyd wrote: »
    50 victims all from one small segment (Islamic kiwis). Its going to be hugely inpactful on that community. Its going to be hard to heal. On the plus side, I can think of no Western Country better able to reach across community barriers than New Zealand.

    I think the NZ PM's speech sums it up

    Our thoughts and our prayers are with those who have been impacted today. Christchurch was their home. For many, this may not have been the place they were born, in fact for many, New Zealand was their choice.

    The place they actively came to, and committed to. The place they were raising their families. Where they were parts of communities that they loved and who loved them in return. It was a place that many came to for its safety. A place where they were free to practice their culture and their religion.

    For those of you who are watching at home tonight, and questioning how this could have happened here.

    We, New Zealand, we were not a target because we are a safe harbour for those who hate.

    We were not chosen for this act of violence because we condone racism, because we are an enclave for extremism.

    We were chosen for the very fact that we are none of those things.

    Because we represent diversity, kindness, compassion. A home for those who share our values. Refuge for those who needs it. And those values will not and cannot be shaken by this attack.

    We are a proud nation of more than 200 ethnicities, 160 languages. And amongst that diversity we share common values. And the one that we place the currency on right now is our compassion and support for the community of those directly affected by this tragedy.


    On a personal note, my Dad texted. They had been in town for an event and the building was put into lock down.

    Being holed up for a while is nothing compared to the suffering of those directly affected by the tragedy and I feel sad for what are mostly immigrants and refugees from wartorn countries like Somalia and Syria etc. NZ should be the last place where they have to re-live such violence. So I feel sad and I have no doubt NZ will be exemplary in offering support. Much like Ireland, we are a very charitable nation.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,176 ✭✭✭ troyzer


    Has anyone see the response by that Australian senator?

    I genuinely don't understand how anyone can react to this tragedy other than with sadness and heartbreak.

    Hopefully the community can recover from this and come out the other side stronger.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,218 ✭✭✭✭ bilston


    Sympathies to all our Kiwi posters and my thoughts are definitely with the families and victims today.

    I was thinking to myself earlier that New Zealand is the last place I'd expect this to happen. There really is no safe place nowadays and that is a very depressing thought.

    There is so much hate out there at the minute.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,427 CMod ✭✭✭✭ awec


    troyzer wrote: »
    Has anyone see the response by that Australian senator?

    I genuinely don't understand how anyone can react to this tragedy other than with sadness and heartbreak.

    Hopefully the community can recover from this and come out the other side stronger.
    This is not the place for discussing that.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,176 ✭✭✭ troyzer


    awec wrote: »
    This is not the place for discussing that.

    Fair enough.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,291 ✭✭✭ lbc2019


    Sympathies to all Kiwi people mourning


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,138 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Zzippy


    I was in Christchurch 3 years ago, the city was still struggling to get over the 2011 earthquake. Lovely people, I can't imagine what the city is going through today. RIP to all those innocent people.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,233 ✭✭✭ Yeah_Right


    It was a shock waking up to the news this morning. I think TJ Perenara summed it up quite nicely.

    "Regardless of how that result went, that wouldn't have been the most important part of my day and I don't think anyone in this circle or in this country would say that this was the most important thing today, and that comes from a very competitive person who would do pretty much anything to win," Perenara told media after the match.

    "My mind was on the game when I was in the game, but today was bigger than rugby."


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,519 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Neil3030


    The live streaming is a terrifying new element of these mass killings. Utterly, utterly sickening, saddening, maddening, too much to process.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,409 ✭✭✭ joseywhales


    If they wanted to change the hearts or minds of a group that they oppose, they have done the exact worst thing to achieve that end but merely confirmed in the minds of opposition extremists the righteousness of their own hatred. Using cold analysis, I can never understand the strategy behind these evil acts except only to create more hate, sometimes makes me think that evil itself could actually just have a manifest purpose of survival. Evil for evil's sake.

    I hope the leadership take the opportunity to fight hate primarily with compassion.


  • Hosted Moderators Posts: 6,355 ✭✭✭ fitz


    Got to spend 4 weeks in NZ for the 2011 RWC, and without fail, we were treated like royalty. Such a welcoming, open and friendly people. I got a deep sense there of community spirit born from this shared collective connection Kiwis have to their land and it's history. That such a community has to deal with this kind of senseless tragedy is particularly sad. Thoughts are with all those affected, especially our resident forum NZers.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,191 ✭✭✭ swiwi_


    Just a wee update. Had my parents on Skype this morning. People are going to great lengths to show the Muslim community that people genuinely care. My dad thinks there is a real chance that the Crusaders will, in fact, end up changing their name.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,176 ✭✭✭ troyzer


    swiwi_ wrote: »
    Just a wee update. Had my parents on Skype this morning. People are going to great lengths to show the Muslim community that people genuinely care. My dad thinks there is a real chance that the Crusaders will, in fact, end up changing their name.

    I always thought it was a weird name. The Crusades have been sanitised quite a bit by a lot of books and movies about the middle ages and fantasy etc. But the crusades were ultimately bloody wars of conquest against a Muslim invader. When the first crusade entered Jerusalem they engaged in a huge massacre of Muslim population and there were accounts of cannibalism. They were trying to ethnically and religiously purify the city and that included the murder of Jewish people as well.

    They reckon around 10-15,000 people, including women and children were massacred in the dome of the rock.

    So yeah, calling a team the Crusaders is really strange. It would be like calling a team "the Jihadis" or "the SS".

    And make no mistake, white supremacists draw heavily on the mythology of the crusades, the siege of Vienna, the battle of Tours and Lepanto as inspiration in their "war against Islam".

    But changing the name would be political correctness gone mad. Definitely.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 658 jjpep


    troyzer wrote: »
    I always thought it was a weird name. The Crusades have been sanitised quite a bit by a lot of books and movies about the middle ages and fantasy etc. But the crusades were ultimately bloody wars of conquest against a Muslim invader. When the first crusade entered Jerusalem they engaged in a huge massacre of Muslim population and there were accounts of cannibalism. They were trying to ethnically and religiously purify the city and that included the murder of Jewish people as well.

    They reckon around 10-15,000 people, including women and children were massacred in the dome of the rock.

    So yeah, calling a team the Crusaders is really strange. It would be like calling a team "the Jihadis" or "the SS".

    And make no mistake, white supremacists draw heavily on the mythology of the crusades, the siege of Vienna, the battle of Tours and Lepanto as inspiration in their "war against Islam".

    But changing the name would be political correctness gone mad. Definitely.

    I don't know if it really would be pc gone mad though. We look back and re asses history all the time. And maybe this kind of name shouldn't be used givien what the crusaders actually did. I wonder in a 1000 years would it be ok for a sports team to be called the Nazi's or the jihads or the 9/11 era or similar. Maybe it would - once enough time has passed maybe something becomes ok? I mean, no one objects to the name barbarians but in another time and place maybe that would be offisive.

    Apologies for not very well structured response here - will do another later once in front of a computer, rather than a phone. It is an interesting thought experiment though


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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,176 ✭✭✭ troyzer


    jjpep wrote: »
    I don't know if it really would be pc gone mad though. We look back and re asses history all the time. And maybe this kind of name shouldn't be used givien what the crusaders actually did. I wonder in a 1000 years would it be ok for a sports team to be called the Nazi's or the jihads or the 9/11 era or similar. Maybe it would - once enough time has passed maybe something becomes ok? I mean, no one objects to the name barbarians but in another time and place maybe that would be offisive.

    Apologies for not very well structured response here - will do another later once in front of a computer, rather than a phone. It is an interesting thought experiment though

    I was being sarcastic because there will be a lot of people who will say it's political correctness gone mad. I don't think it was ever an appropriate name and now it's just obvious.

    I don't think barbarians is a bad name. It's a Roman term for what they considered to be uncivilised people's. The Barbarians are famous for being massive piss ups and unstructured rugby. They're proud to be seen as uncivilised. That's sort of the point.


  • Registered Users Posts: 34,119 ✭✭✭✭ eagle eye


    Well I think it's insane to be looking for the Crusaders to change their name because some brainless, psychopaths did something insane.
    The Crusaders have a lot of history, good history in rugby.
    And the term Crusader can mean a good person too.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,176 ✭✭✭ troyzer


    eagle eye wrote: »
    Well I think it's insane to be looking for the Crusaders to change their name because some brainless, psychopaths did something insane.
    The Crusaders have a lot of history, good history in rugby.
    And the term Crusader can mean a good person too.

    Can it? I mean, the Swastika is an ancient symbol of divinity in India. But I don't think a professional rugby team would get away with a Swastika as their logo.

    And this is worse because the Crusades have always been awful. Like I said, they have been somewhat sanitised in popular culture but for history nerds, it's really weird that you'd want to associate your brand with wanton destruction and ethnic cleansing.

    Let's not forget the sack of Constantinople. It wasn't even a Christian thing at that point. Just about conquest, money and power. The northern Crusades were incredibly brutal as well, so it's not even an anti Islam thing. They were just a thoroughly unpleasant part of history.

    Like it or not, the rise of the new far right is only going to continue and they are going to use these symbols.

    Saying they have a lot of history as well is a bit rich. They're only 20 odd years old. Oasis have more history. As a 26 year old man, I have more history.

    Changing the name is fairly inconsequential. You could even just change to the Canterbury Knights. 99% of the branding, image and culture would be untouched.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,042 ✭✭✭✭ Squidgy Black


    eagle eye wrote: »
    Well I think it's insane to be looking for the Crusaders to change their name because some brainless, psychopaths did something insane.
    The Crusaders have a lot of history, good history in rugby.
    And the term Crusader can mean a good person too.

    I don't think anybody's leading a charge to change the name of the team. More that the organisation themselves are doing it given the circumstances.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,066 ✭✭✭ Richie_Rich89


    Wouldn't go far enough in my opinion. They need to change the name of the city as well. It's not inclusive. No wonder Sonny Bill Williams wanted to get out.


  • Registered Users Posts: 34,119 ✭✭✭✭ eagle eye


    troyzer wrote:
    Can it? I mean, the Swastika is an ancient symbol of divinity in India. But I don't think a professional rugby team would get away with a Swastika as their logo.
    We are not talking about the swastika and it's a symbol not a name.
    troyzer wrote:
    And this is worse because the Crusades have always been awful. Like I said, they have been somewhat sanitised in popular culture but for history nerds, it's really weird that you'd want to associate your brand with wanton destruction and ethnic cleansing.

    Our own Nobel Peace prize winner Sean McBride was often referred to as a crusader for human rights.
    There are plenty of examples of great people who are referred to as Crusaders who were good people.
    troyzer wrote:
    Let's not forget the sack of Constantinople. It wasn't even a Christian thing at that point. Just about conquest, money and power. The northern Crusades were incredibly brutal as well, so it's not even an anti Islam thing. They were just a thoroughly unpleasant part of history.
    This is the crusades you are talking about. The word crusader means a lot of different things.
    troyzer wrote:
    Like it or not, the rise of the new far right is only going to continue and they are going to use these symbols.
    Symbols are different to names and even then if you give them sole use of something then it's giving them more notoriety.
    troyzer wrote:
    Saying they have a lot of history as well is a bit rich. They're only 20 odd years old. Oasis have more history. As a 26 year old man, I have more history.
    They've won nine Super Rugby titles, more than anyone else. They are the biggest name in Super Rugby.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,176 ✭✭✭ troyzer


    eagle eye wrote: »
    We ate not talking about the swastika and it's a symbol not a name.



    Our own Nobel Peace prize winner Sean McBride was often referred to as a crusader for human rights.
    There are plenty of examples of great people who are referred to as Crusaders who were good people.


    This is the crusades you are talking about. The word crusader means a lit if different things.


    Symbols are different to names and even then if you give them some use of something then it's giving them more notoriety.


    They've won nine Super Rugby titles, more than anyone else. They are the biggest name in Super Rugby.

    So the nub of your argument is that:

    1) Crusaders means different things. Fair enough, except that the Crusaders have a knight as their symbol and there's a lad on a horse before the matches. I'm pretty sure they meant THAT kind of crusader.

    2) Symbols are different to names. Grand, so would you be happy with a Pro14 team called the Munich Schutzstaffel?


  • Registered Users Posts: 34,119 ✭✭✭✭ eagle eye


    troyzer wrote:
    2) Symbols are different to names. Grand, so would you be happy with a Pro14 team called the Munich Schutzstaffel?

    What does Schutzstaffel mean?


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,176 ✭✭✭ troyzer


    eagle eye wrote: »
    What does Schutzstaffel mean?

    You might know them as the SS.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 34,119 ✭✭✭✭ eagle eye


    troyzer wrote:
    You might know them as the SS.
    And has it another meaning besides that?


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