Excellent Performance & being demoted!

toolerb

I am in a very frustrating position at the moment, that I would greatly appreciate some advise on. (i am so sorry it is so long winded)

I am working for my company for 13 years.
I have a very strong work ethic, a good performance, and have never had a poor review or any issues regarding my role and have always delivered on my goals. I have always been happy here, great work life balance, and never dread a Monday :-)

Last year, in my end of year review I was told I was "red circled, and at the top of my salary benchmark" so was therefore not given much of a pay-rise (€800). I was OK with this at the time as I had only returned from Maternity leave (6 months) and did not put in a full years delivery to warrant fighting for a bigger pay increment. I was advised "have a good year next year, deliver as best you can and you should then come into a new bench-marking for your salary" at the next review.

Last week I had the 1st of my End of Year Performance reviews for the last year. It went great, in fact it was probably one of the best I ever had. I have gone above and beyond this years goals, I out performed my KPI's and I really had a great year. My line manager also stated all of this in the review. Advised that i am well recognized in the business, I am liked, and that people trust and listen to me when working with me, that I have had a really great year and that what I have delivered has really been outstanding. I was delighted.

Our dept is currently going through a big org change - which is due to be announced in the coming weeks.
My Manager then asked if she could take me through some Org changes to our own team. And I was happy to see this.

At present I report to my manager, who reports to a head of dept, who then reports to director of dept. So i Have 2 Managers between myself & Director.

My Manager drew out the new team structure that will sit under herself.
She will have 4 "manager's" who will report to her, which will each have a team. (bringing in some other people from other teams in the dept)
1 of these teams she had myself listed to work on.
So this brings me down again by 1 level, it is giving me a manager reporting into my current manager. Thus meaning there will now be 3 managers between myself and my Director.

My Manager also advised she will have to "hire" for this manager role (and the other 3), however she already had a name assigned to the Manager I was to report into. She specifically stated "i have to hire for that role but "Timmy" is going to be the manager. (Also to note, "Timmy, is not an employee of my company, but an external contractor working on 1 project, and is "friends" with both of my managers!!)

I remained very calm and polite and I expressed that I would not be happy with this change, that is demotes me down 1 level and that for my career progression, this is not a good move. I want to be moving up the chain and not down! She understood what I was saying and advised "this is why i wanted your feedback, to get your feelings on it" she placed my name back at the top, and asked is that where I see myself sitting and I said yes, as that is where i am today, and that is where I should stay"
She advised to leave it with her and she will review it, and again I remained professional and thanked her.

I was so deflated and upset afterwards, to go from having a fantastic review and being commended for my work, to being shown a new structure with me pushed down 1 level. I really am trying to move up the chain, and putting in a strong performance it was deflating and hard not to take it personal. I dont believe they have considered me or my skill set / performance when looking at the new structure. They just threw me in somewhere.

I am now in situation where I believe they can force this change on me. And I want to be prepared to fight it out.

Firstly i feel i am not being recognized for the work i have delivered, and ignored of my skill set. They know I want to progress internally, why have they not considered this?
Secondly, i feel i am not being treated fairly at being considered for 1 of these news roles, they already have someone assigned to it, even though it has to be advertised - which I am confident they should not be doing??.
I would love the opportunity to take on more / different work, why have I not been considered for it.

Also if they leave me where I am, I want to vent my upset that this was being "proposed" and that I am deflated after a strong year not to be considered / appreciated and would love an opportunity to develop further, but that they were prepared to pus me down.

Any advise on how I address this?

Xterminator

Hi Op

As I read this your role will not change, your title will not change. You are a valued employee - as you said top of your salary scale and performing well.

The business is restructuring and as a result you perceive your role is less valuable sue to the change in reporting structure.

Should the business have asked you for your permission before changing structure? They are perfectly entitled to do this, and it in no way dilutes your value to the company. I think you have a hang up here. I would understand if you were looking for assurances as to your position etc. but it appears you are instead taking it as a personal affront that the management structure is changing.

bullpost

Where do you stand in terms of a promotion? How long are you at your existing level and what is process to go up to next level?
Also have you reviews ever alluded to your leadership potential?

toolerb

Xterminator wrote: »

Hi Op

As I read this your role will not change, your title will not change. You are a valued employee - as you said top of your salary scale and performing well.

The business is restructuring and as a result you perceive your role is less valuable sue to the change in reporting structure.

Should the business have asked you for your permission before changing structure? They are perfectly entitled to do this, and it in no way dilutes your value to the company. I think you have a hang up here. I would understand if you were looking for assurances as to your position etc. but it appears you are instead taking it as a personal affront that the management structure is changing.

thanks for the response, I understand how management structure can change, and have been part of it plenty times before, no my salary wont change, however I am at the top of my bench marking and I am concerned that when they review my salary after this years performance, in the new structure, i am further down a level, will this have an impact on it? be seen as a more junior position?
I did state that I am finding it hard not to take personal, but I would have liked to be given an opportunity to apply for the suggested managers role, but they already have someone assigned to it, even though it has to be advertised. What is the point in my trying to get it?

toolerb

bullpost wrote: »

Where do you stand in terms of a promotion? How long are you at your existing level and what is process to go up to next level?
Also have you reviews ever alluded to your leadership potential?

I am at my existing level 5 years. I am in a department where it is very hard to progress, unless someone leaves at a level above you, there is no opportunity. I have always stated I want to move into a bigger role, always stated I am open for more challenges & development opportunity.
I am working on a very big project this year, that opens me to even more visibility with senior management.

bullpost

toolerb wrote: »

I am at my existing level 5 years. I am in a department where it is very hard to progress, unless someone leaves at a level above you, there is no opportunity. I have always stated I want to move into a bigger role, always stated I am open for more challenges & development opportunity.
I am working on a very big project this year, that opens me to even more visibility with senior management.

Sounds like your ambitions will not be met in this company. Any chance to make a move somewhere with more opportunities?

realitykeeper

I get what you are saying and I empathize. I think if your bosses were serious about their business, they would be more merit focused.

However, maybe the guys on top think you would not fit in on the upper echelons. They might think you would think differently to them as you are a woman. They might think you might be a bit pushy and less inclined to share a joke, at least not the kind of joke they might appreciate.

I think women are generally better in management than men. Women are more risk averse, they are often more driven and more serious than their male counterparts.

toolerb

realitykeeper wrote: »

I get what you are saying and I empathize. I think if your bosses were serious about their business, they would be more merit focused.

However, maybe the guys on top think you would not fit in on the upper echelons. They might think you would think differently to them as you are a woman. They might think you might be a bit pushy and less inclined to share a joke, at least not the kind of joke they might appreciate.

I think women are generally better in management than men. Women are more risk averse, they are often more driven and more serious than their male counterparts.

And the best answer to this, is the fact we are all women!! myself and all managers above me & I get on great with all of them, never any issues.

toolerb

bullpost wrote: »

Sounds like your ambitions will not be met in this company. Any chance to make a move somewhere with more opportunities?

Due to personal reasons, it is not an option, however as you highlight it to me, I do believe you are spot on. Maybe the challenge now is to get what I can from the company and move as soon as possible!

skallywag

Do you believe that your manager was being genuine when she said that she will review it, etc? Did she give you a time frame for coming back to you?

It can often be the case that managers have little influence on a re-org, and may be forced to implement a new structure from top down. It could be the case that she herself is not in favour of it, and is now going through the process of gathering feedback from the team concerning how they feel about the new world order, with the aim of going back to her boss with the evidence that she has then gathered after speaking with the team.

I have seen something like this happen in the past. The fact that she is giving you a heads up and looking for your opinion some weeks before anything is announced may argue in favour of this too.

realitykeeper

toolerb wrote: »

And the best answer to this, is the fact we are all women!! myself and all managers above me & I get on great with all of them, never any issues.

In that case I think your best option is to go along with what they are asking. They might have wanted a person with qualifications or skills you do not have. You can always upskill or look for another job.

Diziet

I think you did the right thing in the way you responded. The next time, you can add to your 'I want to progress' statement by asking to be considered for one of the manager roles and applying for one.

I sympathise, i would be very annoyed also.

OMM 0000

toolerb wrote: »

[the new manager] is "friends" with both of my managers!!)

I'm always saying this here, so I'm sure some people are sick of it, but I have to say it again.

Most promotions are based on who do you trust, who do you like, who do you get along with, who will have your back.

They are not based on how competent you are.

Of course, being competent really helps your case, but competence and good reviews are frequently not enough to get you promoted.

If you want to get promoted you have to start playing the game. Office politics, making the right friends, etc.

I understand in school you are taught hard work will get you to the top, but in there real world it doesn't work that way.

OMM 0000

realitykeeper wrote: »

I think women are generally better in management than men. Women are more risk averse, they are often more driven and more serious than their male counterparts.

No accusations of sexism...

Let's flip it around...

I think men are generally better in management than women. Men are more risk averse, they are often more driven and more serious than their female counterparts.

_Brian

Your quantifying a promotion/demotion incorrectly, and in a really odd way I’ve necer come across before.

It’s a company reorganisation, your position and terms are unchanged. The management structure above you changed (a little) but that is of no bearing to you or your position.

Relax, keep working hard, your being recognised and have a job you seem to like. All is good.

manonboard

_Brian wrote: »

Your quantifying a promotion/demotion incorrectly, and in a really odd way I’ve necer come across before.

It’s a company reorganisation, your position and terms are unchanged. The management structure above you changed (a little) but that is of no bearing to you or your position.

Relax, keep working hard, your being recognised and have a job you seem to like. All is good.

I agree this with post.
Op. I've never really came across someone quantifying it in the way you have. I can see why you might approach it like that.
Unless it affects your work, or the people under you.. i wouldnt call it a demotion.
Eg: if there are 4 manager and they get a new one. It doesn't dilute the position horizontally.. so i don't think it does so vertically either.

You sound like you handled it in a very professional and appropriate way though. Kudos to raising it and on your performance.

tretorn

And also and I will run away after I have said it.They are probably afraid you will have another couple of babies.

realitykeeper

OMM 0000 wrote: »

No accusations of sexism...

Let's flip it around...

I think men are generally better in management than women. Men are more risk averse, they are often more driven and more serious than their female counterparts.

I am a man and I still hold that women are better workers, more risk averse, better at management and more driven. The only problem is they can be impossible to please (sex aside

P.S. The Rwandese government is 60% female and their economy is growing quickly.

Etc

The first question I have is do you have a development plan as part of your goals and objectives ? If so have you stated your ambitions in there and reviewed with your manager in the past ? If so, refer your manager to that development plan and ask how the planned changes support the plan.

I take it as a good sign that your manager shared the proposed plan with you, and had gone away to think about it. If it was underhand, the job would have been advertised and their friend would have been a shoe in.

Take a step back and try to think about this objectively over the next couple of days, it could be a case that your manager thought sharing the information in the review context was a good thing but executed it poorly.

While your thinking about it, think about how you would position yourself to get the role, think about how you'd manage the team, what you specifically bring that would make you the ideal candidate.

It's important to remember nobody gets promoted for things that they've done, but for what they can do in the future.

You have a great track record, how would you take that success to the next level.

thewolfisloose

realitykeeper wrote: »

I get what you are saying and I empathize. I think if your bosses were serious about their business, they would be more merit focused.

However, maybe the guys on top think you would not fit in on the upper echelons. They might think you would think differently to them as you are a woman. They might think you might be a bit pushy and less inclined to share a joke, at least not the kind of joke they might appreciate.

I think women are generally better in management than men. Women are more risk averse, they are often more driven and more serious than their male counterparts.

I'm glad that leap you took in assuming men are the cause of this problem fell on its face. Now that we know it's exclusively women in this scenario; I suppose it couldn't possibly be due to gaslighting from a female monoculture? Hmm.

riffmongous

I wouldn't call it a demotion but for your career it's going to make it much much harder for you to progress now so i really do think you are justified in being annoyed with this. The new level is going to cost you a few extra years to move up to, and then it's going to be even more competitive than it is now to move to where your current manager is, even worse since the higher positions only become available irregularly.

Stheno

realitykeeper wrote: »

I am a man and I still hold that women are better workers, more risk averse, better at management and more driven. The only problem is they can be impossible to please (sex aside

P.S. The Rwandese government is 60% female and their economy is growing quickly.

Mod

Can we please quit with the gender nonsense?

Jim2007

OMM 0000 wrote: »

No accusations of sexism...

Let's flip it around...

I think men are generally better in management than women. Men are more risk averse, they are often more driven and more serious than their female counterparts.

Best to ignore him, look at his usual posting history.

daheff

if the conversation happened as the OP pointed out, i would think that the manager is considering the OP for one of the new manager roles(probably timmys) ... and thinking how to move timmy sidewards to a different one that hes been earmarked for.

toolerb

toolerb wrote: »

She understood what I was saying and advised "this is why i wanted your feedback, to get your feelings on it" she placed my name back at the top, and asked is that where I see myself sitting and I said yes, as that is where i am today, and that is where I should stay"
She advised to leave it with her and she will review it, and again I remained professional and thanked her

I would love the opportunity to take on more / different work, why have I not been considered for it.

Maybe your manager did not realise that you would be interested in a managerial role. I was called into a meeting some time ago to get my thoughts on a restructuring, I made it clear that I would be interested in one of the more senior roles being created and recently got that job. She knows now, so wait and see what happens.

But bear in mind, just because you're good at your job does not automatically mean that you would make a good manager. I know that many companies have the unfortunate tendency to assume a good working automatically makes a good manager, this is not the case. Are you up for and able for all that managing a team entails?

Either way, as others have said, this is not a demotion, it's a restructuring. And if you don't get the managerial role this time, it will make career progression a little easier in future as another layer of management has been added.

Gerry T

realitykeeper wrote:

I think women are generally better in management than men. Women are more risk averse, they are often more driven and more serious than their male counterparts.

Dont listen to this billsh1t.

Gerry T

Your not being demoted, their putting a mgt layer between you and your manager, you jobs isn't reducing I suspect. This is a good thing, it gives you an opportunity to move up. You did right to express interest in the new role and def fight for it. Tell other mgt that you want an interview, show some fight and determination (not aggression). Use this opportunity and try influence the decision, if it fails it will only help their view of you.

toolerb

Apologies everyone for the lack of response on my side, swamped in work
I have taken the last week or so, thinking hard about all of this.

There is allot of changes taking place internally, and there is allot of politics going on.
As much as I genuinely agree with all of the feedback that this is not a demotion, but a structural change, however, there is 100% a game plan going on with these 3 people - and I am not the only 1 to be hit by it.

I have left my manager alone since our discussion, on the basis I trust she will make the right decision and leave me where I am, last thing she needs, is me biting at her ankles, whilst allot of changes are being done.

I am waiting it out and hope to hear this week or next as to what the plan is.
If I am left where I am, then great, if not then I shall need to up my game , as that is clearly what is going on internally, and I shall need to get the gloves out

OMM 0000

toolerb wrote: »

I have always been happy here, great work life balance, and never dread a Monday :-)

It seems like this is a decent place to work.

If you didn't have an ego, would you still be having the same reaction to these changes?

I mean that in a sincere way.

How much of your internal turmoil is being caused by a bruised ego?

Thoie

Just to add to this, while she may have earmarked Timmy for this new managerial role, be 100% clear with her that you're interested in applying for the position.

Even though you know in your heart that Timmy is getting it, by applying now you're waving a big sign saying that you're interested in progressing and want a promotion (and associated pay rise). That way they can't turn around in 6-12 months and say "oh, we didn't know you were interested". There's also a chance with your performance record that you'll blow Timmy out of the water in the interview, and get the role

BattleCorp

toolerb wrote: »

My Manager also advised she will have to "hire" for this manager role (and the other 3), however she already had a name assigned to the Manager I was to report into. She specifically stated "i have to hire for that role but "Timmy" is going to be the manager. (Also to note, "Timmy, is not an employee of my company, but an external contractor working on 1 project, and is "friends" with both of my managers!!)

Do you think promotion is handled fairly in your company because judging from the above paragraph, their hiring practices are very dodgy?

Not exactly above board to hire someone for the job before the job is even advertised.