The case of Anna Elisabeth Michel

realitykeeper

In the movie, the Exorcism of Emily Rose, based on the case of Anna Elisabeth "Anneliese" Michel, the Priest said that he believed she would one day be declared a saint. This was because she was offered the choice by Our Lady to continue to suffer for the sins of the youth and for apostacy of priests or not. She choose to suffer this martyrdom. So, should she be declared a saint?

10fathoms

realitykeeper wrote: »

In the movie, the Exorcism of Emily Rose, based on the case of Anna Elisabeth "Anneliese" Michel, the Priest said that he believed she would one day be declared a saint. This was because she was offered the choice by Our Lady to continue to suffer for the sins of the youth and for apostacy of priests or not. She choose to suffer this martyrdom. So, should she be declared a saint?

No.

Peregrinus

Because of something a screenwriter who specialises in horror films wrote in a fictional story which drew on elements of her history? I'm going to say "no", this is absolutely not relevant at all, in any way whatsoever.

Defunkd

I read her story before and it was very unusual. There have supposedly other saints who were possessed throughout their life too.
It was her confessor who said she'd be a saint iirc but who knows if he's right. He might be convinced of it but the process is often long.

realitykeeper

Peregrinus wrote: »

Because of something a screenwriter who specialises in horror films wrote in a fictional story which drew on elements of her history? I'm going to say "no", this is absolutely not relevant at all, in any way whatsoever.

No, not because of what the screenwriter wrote. Because of this:

Things remained quite calm for the next two months until Anneliese had another apparition of the Blessed Virgin Mary---this time at Engelberg Monastery, which is a Franciscan monastery where Anneliese would often visit to pray. This time, the Blessed Virgin Mary complained to Anneliese:
"It is a great suffering for my heart that so many souls are lost! It is necessary to do penance for priests, for the youth and for your country. Would you be willing to do penance for these souls, so that not so many are lost?”

The Mother of God told her not to answer right away, but to think it over. Anneliese spoke to her mother Anna concerning the request made to her by the Blessed Virgin Mary, and her mother in turn discussed it with her husband, Anneliese's father, Josef. Her parents were understandably very concerned and worried, for they knew that the "penance" that Anneliese would have to undergo would in large part be that the demons would once again freely and ferociously terrorize her, and they all surmised that if she said yes it would likely be significantly worse than before.

Anneliese spent much of the next days praying before a crucifix. When Anna suggested to Anneliese that she could not say yes and go through with this, Anneliese responded, “I can mom. If I don’t, souls may be lost!”

We know that Anneliese said yes to the Blessed Virgin Mary, and it likely occurred a few days later in the family kitchen, when in Anna’s presence she heard Anneliese say: “Mother Mary, you are so beautiful!” Anna wasn’t able to understand anything else, but she stated that Anneliese seemed to be seeing a vision. Soon afterwards she told Peter that "Things will soon get bad again."

realitykeeper

10fathoms wrote: »

No.

Cén fáth?

smacl

realitykeeper wrote: »

Cén fáth?

Given her parents and the priest involved in the exorcism were convicted of killing Anneliese Michel through negligent homicide, and that an expert witness stated the case was a misidentification of mental illness, I'd imagine the Church would want to keep well away from the scene of the crime, so to speak. A rather sad case, all told.

Cabaal

smacl wrote: »

a misidentification of mental illness.....

This discribes every possession in history

realitykeeper

smacl wrote: »

Given her parents and the priest involved in the exorcism were convicted of killing Anneliese Michel through negligent homicide, and that an expert witness stated the case was a misidentification of mental illness, I'd imagine the Church would want to keep well away from the scene of the crime, so to speak. A rather sad case, all told.

No I do not agree. The laws and verdicts of mankind are often at odds with the laws of God. God was taken into custody when on earth and later crucified. I think she will be officially venerated as a saint in time, of course unoficially she is already considdered a saint by many.

realitykeeper

Cabaal wrote: »

This discribes every possession in history

I think the medical profession are a proud lot who don`t like to have their professional opinions challenged. Also, the impression I got from what has been written and portrayed in the movie is that she had made the decision to stop using her medication independently and rather than try changing her mind (which was probably trenchant) the priest accepted her decision. That is not really the same thing as talking her out of taking her medication.

In the movie, the prosecution stretched possibilities to an incredulous degree in my opinion. He said for example that she could have trained her vocal chords like the Tibetan monks or the Australian Aboriginies. Why would she do that if it was not her intention to carry out a deception? He did not suggest she was pretending but that she was mentally ill. But if she was mentally ill, did she do this vocal training during her fits and then forget all about it afterwards?

realitykeeper

Cabaal wrote: »

This discribes every possession in history

I think the medical profession are a proud lot who don`t like to have their professional opinions challenged. Also, the impression I got from what has been written and portrayed in the movie is that she had made the decision to stop using her medication independently and rather than try changing her mind (which was probably trenchant) the priest accepted her decision. That is not really the same thing as talking her out of taking her medication.

In the movie, the prosecution stretched possibilities to an incredulous degree in my opinion. He said for example that she could have trained her vocal chords like the Tibetan monks or the Australian Aboriginies. Why would she do that if it was not her intention to carry out a deception? He did not suggest she was pretending but that she was mentally ill. But if she was mentally ill, did she do this vocal training during her fits and then forget all about it afterwards?

As a man of faith, this dismissal of demonic possession as a possibility suggests a bias against reason. Sure the brain is entirely organic but to assume then that there is no such thing as a supernatural influence or to assume that no part of the brain interacts with the supernatural is nothing more than an medical opinion. The doctors cannot know this. The bright light often experienced in near death cases is attributed to chemicals but how can the doctors know that this is not precisely how the brain reacts to the supernatural? They can`t.

Peregrinus

realitykeeper wrote: »

I think the medical profession are a proud lot who don`t like to have their professional opinions challenged

You may think so, but the church relies heavily on them in the canonisation process, and will not attribute to supernatural causes that which the medics say is explicable by current medical knowledge. Mostly this takes the form of not accepting as "miraculous" cures which are in fact medically explicable, but it cuts both ways; they won't accept as "demonic" afflictions which are medically explicable.

Peregrinus

realitykeeper wrote: »

No, not because of what the screenwriter wrote. Because of this:

Things remained quite calm for the next two months until Anneliese had another apparition of the Blessed Virgin Mary---this time at Engelberg Monastery, which is a Franciscan monastery where Anneliese would often visit to pray. This time, the Blessed Virgin Mary complained to Anneliese:
"It is a great suffering for my heart that so many souls are lost! It is necessary to do penance for priests, for the youth and for your country. Would you be willing to do penance for these souls, so that not so many are lost?”

The Mother of God told her not to answer right away, but to think it over. Anneliese spoke to her mother Anna concerning the request made to her by the Blessed Virgin Mary, and her mother in turn discussed it with her husband, Anneliese's father, Josef. Her parents were understandably very concerned and worried, for they knew that the "penance" that Anneliese would have to undergo would in large part be that the demons would once again freely and ferociously terrorize her, and they all surmised that if she said yes it would likely be significantly worse than before.

Anneliese spent much of the next days praying before a crucifix. When Anna suggested to Anneliese that she could not say yes and go through with this, Anneliese responded, “I can mom. If I don’t, souls may be lost!”

We know that Anneliese said yes to the Blessed Virgin Mary, and it likely occurred a few days later in the family kitchen, when in Anna’s presence she heard Anneliese say: “Mother Mary, you are so beautiful!” Anna wasn’t able to understand anything else, but she stated that Anneliese seemed to be seeing a vision. Soon afterwards she told Peter that "Things will soon get bad again."

Who wrote this, and why should I believe them?

branie2

She was German in real life, I believe.

realitykeeper

Peregrinus wrote: »

You may think so, but the church relies heavily on them in the canonisation process, and will not attribute to supernatural causes that which the medics say is explicable by current medical knowledge. Mostly this takes the form of not accepting as "miraculous" cures which are in fact medically explicable, but it cuts both ways; they won't accept as "demonic" afflictions which are medically explicable.

If only the doctors knew it all. They don`t of course. They love pushing the drugs the pharmaceutical companies want them to promote. I suspect a lot of that is going on, especially where vulnerable old people are concerned. Also, they are paid outlandish salaries while telling their dying patients the HSE does not have the money for their live saving medication.

Exorcism is only ever used when everything else has been tried and failed to work.

realitykeeper

branie2 wrote: »

She was German in real life, I believe.

Correct.

smacl

realitykeeper wrote: »

If only the doctors knew it all. They don`t of course. They love pushing the drugs the pharmaceutical companies want them to promote. I suspect a lot of that is going on, especially where vulnerable old people are concerned. Also, they are paid outlandish salaries while telling their dying patients the HSE does not have the money for their live saving medication.

Exorcism is only ever used when everything else has been tried and failed to work.

A priest is charged with negligent homicide for killing a particularly vulnerable girl and you're having a go at the medical profession? Let's have another quick look at the facts here

Her parents stopped consulting doctors on her request and relied solely on the exorcism rites. 67 exorcism sessions; one or two each week, lasting up to four hours, were performed over about ten months in 1975–1976.

On 1 July 1976, Michel died in her home. The autopsy report stated the cause was malnutrition and dehydration due to being in a semi-starvation state for almost a year while the rites of exorcism were performed. She weighed 30 kilograms (68 pounds), suffering broken knees due to continuous genuflections. She was unable to move without assistance, and was reported to have contracted pneumonia.

After an investigation, the state prosecutor maintained that Michel's death could have been prevented even one week before she died.

While probably done with good intentions, this looks like a pretty sordid case of abuse leading to untimely death, where those involved were found guilty of manslaughter. The bishop that sanctioned the exorcism subsequently changed the rules that no further exorcisms would be sanctioned without a doctor in attendance at all times.

homer911

Wasnt there a priest on the Late Late recently talking about the difference between demon possession and mental illness?
Actually, here's the link - worth a watch
https://www.rte.ie/player/series/the-late-late-show/SI0000001694?epguid=IH000368280&clipguid=PI000014043

smacl

homer911 wrote: »

Wasnt there a priest on the Late Late recently talking about the difference between demon possession and mental illness?
Actually, here's the link - worth a watch
https://www.rte.ie/player/series/the-late-late-show/SI0000001694?epguid=IH000368280&clipguid=PI000014043

Just watched it and while I didn't find the priest particularly credible, it is easy to understand the appeal. As I see it, the difference between demon possession and mental illness is that the former rests on superstition whereas the latter does not. The suggestion in the video that suicidal tendency could in some instances be the work of the devil screams at me that priests who are also active exorcists shouldn't be let anywhere near anyone with mental health issues, which unfortunately seems to be the group they're targeting To my mind it falls into the same category as treatments such as homeopathy and faith healing being applied to serious illnesses such as cancer, and amounts to peddling snake-oil to the very vulnerable. The fact that the practitioner might well be doing it in good faith is no excuse, it is negligence that can lead to serious harm to those that need treatment from qualified professionals.

As noted in the Guardian last year on the resurgence of exorcism, people are getting hurt by this quackery.

recedite

smacl wrote: »

Given her parents and the priest involved in the exorcism were convicted of killing Anneliese Michel through negligent homicide, and that an expert witness stated the case was a misidentification of mental illness..

Both priests said the demons identified themselves as Lucifer, Cain, Judas Iscariot, Hitler, and Nero among others

A very eclectic mix of devils there.
I'd say there would be some craic when they all get into an argument with each other after a few beers.

10fathoms

homer911 wrote: »

Wasnt there a priest on the Late Late recently talking about the difference between demon possession and mental illness?
Actually, here's the link - worth a watch
https://www.rte.ie/player/series/the-late-late-show/SI0000001694?epguid=IH000368280&clipguid=PI000014043

Great to see the licence fee being put to good use 😂