Self-Build extension with no experience

VonLuck

At the moment I am considering purchasing a house which requires substantial refurbishment. It currently has a poorly constructed small extension to the rear. Looking at the costs for a builder to knock and rebuild, it looks to be quite costly, so I'm contemplating actually undertaking the bulk of the works myself.

I have reasonable experience in construction, but not the actual manual labour side. How feasible is it for someone who has done a small amount of DIY to undertake this kind of work? I am aware that I will need to commit a substantial amount of time and I know some areas would require expertise such as plastering and probably roofing, but I figure excavations, foundations, floor and walls I could do myself.

Am I crazy to even consider this?

Calahonda52

Have you side access for digger/small dumper?
will you be digging out existing foundations of walls?
what about wiring ( no longer DIY) , plumbing?
Have you ever done any block work?
whats the wall construction going to be?
what about complying with building regs. TGDs?
http://www.environ.ie/en/TGD/
some other ideas
http://www.environ.ie/search/archived/current/category/housing/type/publications?query=acceptable%20construction%20details
https://www.nsai.ie/about/news/publication-of-sr-542014-code-of-practice

listermint

VonLuck wrote: »

At the moment I am considering purchasing a house which requires substantial refurbishment. It currently has a poorly constructed small extension to the rear. Looking at the costs for a builder to knock and rebuild, it looks to be quite costly, so I'm contemplating actually undertaking the bulk of the works myself.

I have reasonable experience in construction, but not the actual manual labour side. How feasible is it for someone who has done a small amount of DIY to undertake this kind of work? I am aware that I will need to commit a substantial amount of time and I know some areas would require expertise such as plastering and probably roofing, but I figure excavations, foundations, floor and walls I could do myself.

Am I crazy to even consider this?

It's doable but will take you months if doing it part time and will really be a slog. You have to really single minded and commited. Yes there are massive savings but you have to plan properly and commit to it.

It's not for everyone .

VonLuck

Calahonda52 wrote: »

Have you side access for digger/small dumper?
will you be digging out existing foundations of walls?
what about wiring ( no longer DIY) , plumbing?
Have you ever done any block work?
whats the wall construction going to be?
what about complying with building regs. TGDs?
http://www.environ.ie/en/TGD/
some other ideas
http://www.environ.ie/search/archived/current/category/housing/type/publications?query=acceptable%20construction%20details
https://www.nsai.ie/about/news/publication-of-sr-542014-code-of-practice

Thanks for the info. As I say, I have experience in construction and have some contacts so would have the wherewithal to figure out exactly what's needed. It would all have to be hand dug and any demolition of existing footings/slabs by hand also. Tough work, but there's no access by machinery, even if a builder was on board.

listermint wrote: »

It's doable but will take you months if doing it part time and will really be a slog. You have to really single minded and commited. Yes there are massive savings but you have to plan properly and commit to it.

It's not for everyone .

I think I have the ability to plan and commit, it's just the skill level I'm unsure of. There are full time blocklayers and I'm just a Joe Soap who is throwing his hand at it! Is there a risk of it going disastrously wrong, or is it relatively straight forward if I follow the "instructions"?

listermint

VonLuck wrote: »

Thanks for the info. As I say, I have experience in construction and have some contacts so would have the wherewithal to figure out exactly what's needed. It would all have to be hand dug and any demolition of existing footings/slabs by hand also. Tough work, but there's no access by machinery, even if a builder was on board.



I think I have the ability to plan and commit, it's just the skill level I'm unsure of. There are full time blocklayers and I'm just a Joe Soap who is throwing his hand at it! Is there a risk of it going disastrously wrong, or is it relatively straight forward if I follow the "instructions"?

There are diggers available that drive through front doors and the tracks then expand back out.

Much handier. No point breaking back for footings. You might have to save that for the cement runs

Water John

I'd say have no problem doing the demolition and groundwork but I'd be leaving the blockwork and plastering as I wouldn't have an eye good enough for it.
You'd have to make your choice on that.

listermint

I'd have a go at the blockwork tbh. I've done some myself here. It's very doable take your time and keep the basics right.

And I'd never done block work before.

Maewyn Succat

VonLuck wrote: »

At the moment I am considering purchasing a house which requires substantial refurbishment. It currently has a poorly constructed small extension to the rear. Looking at the costs for a builder to knock and rebuild, it looks to be quite costly, so I'm contemplating actually undertaking the bulk of the works myself.

I have reasonable experience in construction, but not the actual manual labour side. How feasible is it for someone who has done a small amount of DIY to undertake this kind of work? I am aware that I will need to commit a substantial amount of time and I know some areas would require expertise such as plastering and probably roofing, but I figure excavations, foundations, floor and walls I could do myself.

Am I crazy to even consider this?

I read that as "I want to replace one badly built extension with a new badly built extension " to be honest. But that being said with the right advice, self education and depending your skill level of diy you may prove me wrong.

Johnnyhpipe

Personally I think you’re mad. I’m a structural engineer myself (design) but would not/could not do this. I suppose for the same reason I don’t service my own car or do my own dentistry..

Regarding the machinery access, if a builder was on board you can be guaranteed there would be a mini digger through the front door on day 1. Handballing that quantity of material would take forever.

Don’t underestimate the level ofwork involved if you do decide to go it alone.

VonLuck

Johnnyhpipe wrote: »

Personally I think you’re mad. I’m a structural engineer myself (design) but would not/could not do this. I suppose for the same reason I don’t service my own car or do my own dentistry..

Regarding the machinery access, if a builder was on board you can be guaranteed there would be a mini digger through the front door on day 1. Handballing that quantity of material would take forever.

Don’t underestimate the level ofwork involved if you do decide to go it alone.

I don't know about that. I know many people who would tinker with their cars but are not mechanics. I wouldn't compare it to dentistry either as that takes years of study to even start practising. People become labourers with zero experience - what you need is clear guidance on what to do. Sure it may take me a considerable amount of time, but I would have thought it's within anyone's grasp, the same way any form of DIY is.

I may have underestimated the level of work involved in moving material, but mini diggers can be hired to do that work.

Calahonda52

Building airtight, structurally safe walls is not just any form of DIY
Likewise working at heights is not just any form of DIY?
Glasnevin has a fair few punters who did think it so.

Rows Grower

VonLuck wrote: »

At the moment I am considering purchasing a house which requires substantial refurbishment. It currently has a poorly constructed small extension to the rear. Looking at the costs for a builder to knock and rebuild, it looks to be quite costly, so I'm contemplating actually undertaking the bulk of the works myself.

I have reasonable experience in construction, but not the actual manual labour side. How feasible is it for someone who has done a small amount of DIY to undertake this kind of work? I am aware that I will need to commit a substantial amount of time and I know some areas would require expertise such as plastering and probably roofing, but I figure excavations, foundations, floor and walls I could do myself.

Am I crazy to even consider this?

Have a go off it if you are very fit and strong and have time on your side, you've Google if you're stuck.

listermint

Calahonda52 wrote: »

Building airtight, structurally safe walls is not just any form of DIY
Likewise working at heights is not just any form of DIY?
Glasnevin has a fair few punters who did think it so.

It is just process though. I think hes clear of the risks.

If no one wanted to achieve anything then where would we be today.

If done various non DIY , DIY projects myself and I now know every inch of my house . Uncovering some absolute joker work as I went from so called professionals who the previous owner had paid through the nose for.

So I can see both sides of the argument.

I use professionals when I need them and there are many tasks that are simply art rather than process which I wouldn't undertake. But many more you can get alot of satisfaction from the end result.

Sometimes the home owner is more meticulous precisely because they have the time to be.

Lumen

The main argument against is that you will be much slower, to the point where your hourly labour rate is hovering near zero.

So you had better enjoy it.

Rows Grower

Lumen wrote: »

The main argument against is that you will be much slower, to the point where your hourly labour rate is hovering near zero.

So you had better enjoy it.

Shut up you and finish the shed.

listermint

Lumen wrote: »

The main argument against is that you will be much slower, to the point where your hourly labour rate is hovering near zero.

So you had better enjoy it.

This is true. You really have to enjoy it. And there will be plenty ... Plenty of times you don't.

Rows Grower

On the flip side when you do finish it will do your self confidence a power of good, you'll be proud of your achievement and very few people will ask "How long did it take?".

lgk

If you ever go to sell, how do you get certification that it is compliant?

If you're hiring roofers or electricians, how do you satisfy the H&S requirements?

listermint

lgk wrote: »

If you ever go to sell, how do you get certification that it is compliant?

If you're hiring roofers or electricians, how do you satisfy the H&S requirements?

Engineer gives certification same as a builder where do you think he gets certificate from ? Health and safety is again just process. It's not some super human unobtainable thing it's rules and guidelines.... Follow them

mashed13

VonLuck wrote: »

At the moment I am considering purchasing a house which requires substantial refurbishment. It currently has a poorly constructed small extension to the rear. Looking at the costs for a builder to knock and rebuild, it looks to be quite costly, so I'm contemplating actually undertaking the bulk of the works myself.

I have reasonable experience in construction, but not the actual manual labour side. How feasible is it for someone who has done a small amount of DIY to undertake this kind of work? I am aware that I will need to commit a substantial amount of time and I know some areas would require expertise such as plastering and probably roofing, but I figure excavations, foundations, floor and walls I could do myself.

Am I crazy to even consider this?

To be honest I was in a very similar situation and still am. Bought a house about a year now which needed considerable amount of refurbishment, though might not be as big as what you are planning to undertake.

Few good points to note ( not in any particular order)

Time! Even the smallest thing will take three times longer than expected, so if you've family, full time job and other commitments, think well before getting yourself into it.

Costs, everything is going to cost twice as much for whatever you estimated before, even doing it yourself, prepare.

Not sure of your background but You will eventually run into a problems where you will be lacking skill to get the job done well as everybody mentioned, you don't want to end up with sloppy walls, roof, plastering or any of that sorts.

Best advice how to save time and money without sacrificing quality is to go the way of managing the refurb yourself as you said you have some experience in the field, source the materials yourself, shop around, befriend the trades, get them in on a daily rate, stick along help them and learn along the way. Working well for us so far this way.

Mat

lgk

listermint wrote: »

Engineer gives certification same as a builder where do you think he gets certificate from ? Health and safety is again just process. It's not some super human unobtainable thing it's rules and guidelines.... Follow them

A DIYer being considered a competent person under the construction regs to act as the H&S supervisor is where that all might fall down. If there's a chance the job will take more than 30 days from start to finish, it's notifiable to the HSA, and then Safe Pass or equivalent is required. Contractors sending staff to sites have an obligation to ensure all this is in place.

I'd advise asking a few engineers in advance about their willingness to take on such a job. Their PI insurance will need to be attached to it.

antiskeptic

lgk wrote: »

A DIYer being considered a competent person under the construction regs to act as the H&S supervisor is where that all might fall down. If there's a chance the job will take more than 30 days from start to finish, it's notifiable to the HSA, and then Safe Pass or equivalent is required. Contractors sending staff to sites have an obligation to ensure all this is in place.

I'd advise asking a few engineers in advance about their willingness to take on such a job. Their PI insurance will need to be attached to it.

Do those regs apply to a diyer? I was under the impression this all related to the duties of an employer - which a diyee isnt (if doing the work himself)

lgk

antiskeptic wrote: »

Do those regs apply to a diyer? I was under the impression this all related to the duties of an employer - which a diyee isnt (if doing the work himself)

The legislation takes a pretty broad approach, they apply to any project involving bringing in others to carry out plastering, electrical, roofing, etc..

antiskeptic

lgk wrote: »

The legislation takes a pretty broad approach, they apply to any project involving bringing in others to carry out plastering, electrical, roofing, etc..

I'm wondering whether work carried out by yourself is governed by the regs. There is no client (for there is no contractor being engaged by the client). Nor is there a contractor (which necessitates working for recompense. Getting a roofer in for 3 days and a plaster for a week and an electrician for a week doesn't constitute work over 30 days.

So if the contractor element doesn't exceed 30 days. Then what?

listermint

lgk wrote: »

The legislation takes a pretty broad approach, they apply to any project involving bringing in others to carry out plastering, electrical, roofing, etc..

I think your interpretation may be wrong.


Just saying.

Rows Grower

Some lads on here are great at quoting rules and regulations without factoring in that other lads are a lot more capable of DIY than they can imagine.

VonLuck

listermint wrote: »

I think your interpretation may be wrong.


Just saying.

If the project lasts over 30 days you do in fact have to notify the HSA. If there is more than one contractor involved you have to appoint a PSDP and PSCS. That's straight from the HSA's "Guidelines on the Procurement, Design and Management Requirements of the Safety Health and Welfare at Work (Construction)Regulations 2013" document.

lgk

antiskeptic wrote: »

I'm wondering whether work carried out by yourself is governed by the regs. There is no client (for there is no contractor being engaged by the client). Nor is there a contractor (which necessitates working for recompense. Getting a roofer in for 3 days and a plaster for a week and an electrician for a week doesn't constitute work over 30 days.

So if the contractor element doesn't exceed 30 days. Then what?

DIY doesn't fall under the H&S regs, as they apply to workplaces, which implies remuneration. The DIY element must still comply with the building regs, and you will need to find an engineer willing to sign-off on that and attach their PI insurance to it.

Some of this recent legislation has been influenced by the likes of CIF who want to limit the ability of DIYers to carry out such work in the interest of their members, regardless of competency. I'm not a fan of that element, but I've also seen some examples of the type of shocking work that they use to justify it.

It's clearly defined though that the 30 day rule applies to the entire project though, not any individual element or contractor engagement.

Rows Grower

VonLuck wrote: »

If the project lasts over 30 days you do in fact have to notify the HSA. If there is more than one contractor involved you have to appoint a PSDP and PSCS. That's straight from the HSA's "Guidelines on the Procurement, Design and Management Requirements of the Safety Health and Welfare at Work (Construction)Regulations 2013" document.

You don't "have" to do anything that it says in that document just because it is mentioned in the document.

They are "guidelines" not law, and it is not compulsory to follow them.

There's too much of this false information being touted, if someone wants to build their own extension there is no law to stop them once they have planning permission if it is required.

antiskeptic

lgk wrote: »

DIY doesn't fall under the H&S regs, as they apply to workplaces, which implies remuneration. The DIY element must still comply with the building regs, and you will need to find an engineer willing to sign-off on that and attach their PI insurance to it.

Is sign off obligatory - lets say you have no steel?

When it comes to sale, you can get an opinion from eng/arch regarding conformance to building/planning regs without either being involved in the design/construction

Some of this recent legislation has been influenced by the likes of CIF who want to limit the ability of DIYers to carry out such work in the interest of their members, regardless of competency. I'm not a fan of that element, but I've also seen some examples of the type of shocking work that they use to justify it.

It's clearly defined though that the 30 day rule applies to the entire project though, not any individual element or contractor engagement.

That assumes the project qualifies as a construction falling under the regs in the first place. It appears the regs govern construction in a client-appointing-a-contractor-to-do-the-work-for-remuneration scenario. Which this isn't up to a point.

The 'duties of a client to notify' neccessite the existence of a client. For the period the person is constructing themselves (lets say up to the point of appointing a roofer) they are not a client and the building can't be considered a construction from the HSA's perspective. Once it becomes a construction from the HSA pov (ie: a client comes into being) then the notification might begin.


30 working days doesn't specify 30 consecutive days and can be interpreted as meaning 30 days worth of work.

In which case the diyer can avoid notification and the rest if they keep contractor on site involvement below 30 days - even if that 30 days is spread out over time

A question of lining up your trades to be on site at the same time as much as poddible

It would seem to me in any case

lgk

antiskeptic wrote: »

30 working days doesn't specify 30 consecutive days and can be interpreted as meaning 30 days worth of work.

It does, the volume of work criteria is 500 days effort regardless of duration.

antiskeptic

lgk wrote: »

It does, the volume of work criteria is 500 days effort regardless of duration.

Can you link/quote to the specific area of interest?

A working day is a day on which work takes place. If work doesn't take place on a day then its not a working day. There is nothing about 'consecutive days' in the HSA wording, either explicit or implicit.

Understood on the alternative volume measure - which prob wouldnt apply in this case re post notification volume of work.

There isnt any point in having terms and conditions if you arent allowed operate according to them.

And from what I can see, no client means no HSA relevant construction taking place. And once a client (and construction taking place as defined by HSA) you have 30 working days (however spread out) to play with.

antiskeptic

antiskeptic wrote: »

Can you link/quote to the specific area of interest?

A working day is a day on which work takes place. If work doesn't take place on a day then its not a working day. There is nothing about 'consecutive days' in the HSA wording, either explicit or implicit.

Understood on the alternative volume measure - which prob wouldnt apply in this case re post notification volume of work.

There isnt any point in having terms and conditions if you arent allowed operate according to them.

And from what I can see, no client means no HSA relevant construction taking place. And once a client (and construction taking place as defined by HSA) you have 30 working days (however spread out) to play with.

The 500 man days measure gives implicit indication of the spirit of the law here (when the letter is open to interpretation).

The law has a h&s threshold in mind - to wit, significant construction. Someone could pack a lot of men into a sub 30 working day job and not need to notify. So 17 men for 6 working weeks is captured as it is significant in h&s potential. It crosses the threshold

A single storey, significantly self built extension clearly falls well under this level of h&s risk

lgk

antiskeptic wrote: »

Can you link/quote to the specific area of interest?

A working day is a day on which work takes place. If work doesn't take place on a day then its not a working day. There is nothing about 'consecutive days' in the HSA wording, either explicit or implicit.

Understood on the alternative volume measure - which prob wouldnt apply in this case re post notification volume of work.

There isnt any point in having terms and conditions if you arent allowed operate according to them.

And from what I can see, no client means no HSA relevant construction taking place. And once a client (and construction taking place as defined by HSA) you have 30 working days (however spread out) to play with.

It's not that long a piece of legislation and some of what you're asking is covered in detail in the definitions section.

The 2014 amendment made provisions for self-builders to opt-out of elements of the certification process, but that doesn't absolve them of all responsibilities.

VonLuck

Rows Grower wrote: »

You don't "have" to do anything that it says in that document just because it is mentioned in the document.

They are "guidelines" not law, and it is not compulsory to follow them.

There's too much of this false information being touted, if someone wants to build their own extension there is no law to stop them once they have planning permission if it is required.

Okay, here's the legislation then: https://www.hsa.ie/eng/Legislation/New_Legislation/SI_291_2013.pdf

Refer to item 10.

VonLuck

Out of interest, what would you expect to pay for a builder to construct a new small extension, say 12 square metres in area? I've heard various estimates online of between €1.5k to €2k a square metre. How accurate is that?

listermint

VonLuck wrote: »

Out of interest, what would you expect to pay for a builder to construct a new small extension, say 12 square metres in area? I've heard various estimates online of between €1.5k to €2k a square metre. How accurate is that?

Fairly accurate.

Calahonda52

listermint wrote: »

Fairly accurate.

+1
https://www.scsi.ie/advice/house_rebuilding_calculator
and allowing fro a small job, increased costs

VonLuck

Just another related question, instead of starting a new thread - is there value to be had in constructing a small extension? I'm torn at the moment as to whether refurbish an existing property which is in a sorry state as is with no extension and then consider an extension at a later date. The only problem with this is that a chunk of money I would spend on doing up the existing kitchen would be wasted once an extension is built, ultimately knocking out the wall of the refurbed kitchen.

I don't necessarily need the extension, but it seems like a good investment now instead of the future, or is this a completely bonkers thought?

oceanman

VonLuck wrote: »

Just another related question, instead of starting a new thread - is there value to be had in constructing a small extension? I'm torn at the moment as to whether refurbish an existing property which is in a sorry state as is with no extension and then consider an extension at a later date. The only problem with this is that a chunk of money I would spend on doing up the existing kitchen would be wasted once an extension is built, ultimately knocking out the wall of the refurbed kitchen.

I don't necessarily need the extension, but it seems like a good investment now instead of the future, or is this a completely bonkers thought?

bonkers

listermint

VonLuck wrote: »

Just another related question, instead of starting a new thread - is there value to be had in constructing a small extension? I'm torn at the moment as to whether refurbish an existing property which is in a sorry state as is with no extension and then consider an extension at a later date. The only problem with this is that a chunk of money I would spend on doing up the existing kitchen would be wasted once an extension is built, ultimately knocking out the wall of the refurbed kitchen.

I don't necessarily need the extension, but it seems like a good investment now instead of the future, or is this a completely bonkers thought?

Doing it now would be the most intelligent way of doing it frankly.