Diagnostics options - Citroen Grand Picasso

spockety

I have a non-starting Citroen C4 Grand Picasso. Was fine until a few weeks ago when intermittment "Anti Pollution System Failure" messages were popping up, and it sometimes took a few goes to start, but now it won't start at all. It turns over but doesn't fire. From doing a fair bit of reading I gather it could be any number of things, not necessarily DPF. I've read stories of people emptying their pockets of serious wads with garages replacing EGR, DPF overhaul, fuse box replacement etc., only to find it was a loose connector that cost a fiver to replace.

Anyway, first thing I want to do is get diagnostics, but I don't want to spend money and hassle getting it towed to a garage etc. Does anyone know if there are good mobile diagnostics outfits around who have top notch software with them? Not a 20 quid reader off eBay that I could get myself etc. Or is DIY an option these days? Can you get high end diagnostics for DIY at low end prices, that will give all the info you'd get in a well equipped garage?

_Brian

Does everyone with a car not have a garage and mechanic they trust? If not that has to be priority no1.

You will pay a mobile diagnostic probably €80-100 to tell you the codes and what it might be.

If you bring it to a garage they will need to check that for themselves anyway before repairing so you’ll pay twice and still need to pay for the repair.


I know it’s no help but what’s going through my mind is your motor was giving warnings, hard to start and you kept flogging it until it died, what did you expect, it to get fed up with this rubbish and be fine. It’s not a kid throwing a tantrum that will get over itself. Problems like this get worse and worse and cost more and more to fix the more you abuse and ignore them.

Have a friend tow you to a garage and have a good mechanic fix it. We had same car here and it was lovely motor the dpf and associated ellios system gave a fair bit of bother.

w211

That 20 quid scanner could help you to read the codes. DIY are always the option if you know what is wrong. Sure there are too much guessing and it ends by replacing the load of good parts.

If you need the simple code reading, you can use my scanner. It is not dealer level on. I have dealer level one only for Mercedes

spockety

_Brian wrote: »

Does everyone with a car not have a garage and mechanic they trust? If not that has to be priority no1.

You will pay a mobile diagnostic probably €80-100 to tell you the codes and what it might be.

If you bring it to a garage they will need to check that for themselves anyway before repairing so you’ll pay twice and still need to pay for the repair.


I know it’s no help but what’s going through my mind is your motor was giving warnings, hard to start and you kept flogging it until it died, what did you expect, it to get fed up with this rubbish and be fine. It’s not a kid throwing a tantrum that will get over itself. Problems like this get worse and worse and cost more and more to fix the more you abuse and ignore them.

Have a friend tow you to a garage and have a good mechanic fix it. We had same car here and it was lovely motor the dpf and associated ellios system gave a fair bit of bother.

Thank you for the advice and associated life lesson.

I asked a simple question, and you made a shed load of assumptions about my approach. I'd get a yellow card here if I shot back.

But just FYI, I had it in with my "trusted mechanic" last week for both a regular interval service, and asked him to look at the sporadic issue I was having, and he said the diagnostics were showing up nothing and it may be DPF needing regeneration and so to take it for a long blast etc. All very standard before chucking a load of money at labour to diagnose a sporadic issue.

If you know this car as well as you make out, you will know that many people experience these kind of issues with them, and end up emptying their pockets of hundreds or thousands with "trusted mechanics" as they work through various fixes which don't actually address the problem. There are a few scenarios which I could potentially fix myself, without having to spend a load of money with a "trusted mechanic" on a car that's only worth a couple of grand.

But thanks for your helpful input.

grogi

w211 wrote: »

That 20 quid scanner could help you to read the codes. DIY are always the option if you know what is wrong. Sure there are too much guessing and it ends by replacing the load of good parts.

If you need the simple code reading, you can use my scanner. It is not dealer level on. I have dealer level one only for Mercedes

That 20 quid scanner is completely useless for anything from PSA.

You need to get a proper Lexia scanner to do that.

mikeecho

I'm not having a go at the OP, but there seems to be a lot more threads popping up with people having trouble with DPF's , limp mode, poor running etc etc.

In almost all of these threads, it's stated that the problem has been there for weeks but it was ignored, or the light was simply turned off, and now it won't start.

Does anyone maintain their car anymore, or even take action when an initial warning light comes on .

Again.. just a general observation, not having a go at anyone in particular.

spockety

mikeecho wrote: »

I'm not having a go at the OP, but there seems to be a lot more threads popping up with people having trouble with DPF's , limp mode, poor running etc etc.

In almost all of these threads, it's stated that the problem has been there for weeks but it was ignored, or the light was simply turned off, and now it won't start.

Does anyone maintain their car anymore, or even take action when an initial warning light comes on .

Again.. just a general observation, not having a go at anyone in particular.

At least your tone is a bit better ;-)

As above, I got it into a mechanic, nothing showed up. It's sporadic, and on these cars in particular the dash warnings don't necessarily mean exactly what they say.

I want to be fully armed myself now with as much info and my own research as possible before risking emptying my wallet going down cul de sacs, whether with a mechanic or doing it myself.

w211

grogi wrote: »

That 20 quid scanner is completely useless for anything from PSA.

You need to get a proper Lexia scanner to do that.

Even 2eur scanner reads the error codes. The dealer level one is designed only for deep level troubleshooting and settings adjusting.



That lexia scanner unit cost only 30-80eur on China

CorkMan_

Where are you based op? I have Lexia that works on my C6 so I'd imagine id would work on yours. I'm between Naas and Blessington btw.

mikeecho

spockety wrote: »

At least your tone is a bit better ;-)

Hard to believe that this day last year the snow flakes were falling so hard that we were snowed in and a Lidl was being looted.

What a difference a year makes

porsche boy

mikeecho wrote:

In almost all of these threads, it's stated that the problem has been there for weeks but it was ignored, or the light was simply turned off, and now it won't start.

The auld Green Party balls up of 2008 has every auld wan in a diesel car doing 20miles a week. I can't count the amount of DPF's I have sent off to be cleaned, a regen will not suffice at the stage the OP is at.
As regards maintenance, it's common belief only idiots do preventative maintenance. Run it until it's dead, then expect a 20 quid repair to be done as soon as you get your car outside my garage, that seems to be the usual expectation. (That's not aimed at OP, just my years of experience)

w211 wrote:

Even 2eur scanner reads the error codes. The dealer level one is designed only for deep level troubleshooting and settings adjusting.

ELM327 is a protocol that can interface with the various ECUs and report fault codes. There is an element of 'live data' also. These fault codes are only a pointer to what possibly could be a cause. If it says 'Bank 1 Sensor 1' for example it could be the sensor is faulty. It could also be the sensor is not faulty and is sensing something outside its defined parameters. Understanding fault codes & relevant live data will give you a fairly good indication of what's wrong. Basically all the data 8n the world.is pointless unless you can correctly interpret it.

w211

Because the car does not run, the generic codes can reveal the problem. The dealer level scanners are nice but way over killing. You can have 30 000 euro scan tool but it can be 100% useless if you do not follow the schematics. Many things are related and using the same bus. 2eur or 30 000eur scanner both shows to you the direction. The rest of depends by you, how you processing that data. Hook the oscilloscope and verify the real problem. I know, I have here the "fan club" who immediately suggest to replace that, that, and that without any testing. I suggest first to test without disconnecting the any connector. It is possible to back probing the any connector. If there are very slightly corrosion, you can not even notice it. Yes it fix temporary but after month or 2 the problem are back. You can not trust 100% the scanner readings, especially the any sensor waveform. PCM process the data and the output are way different than oscilloscope readings. Ask from the local garages about the oscilloscope, if you have a electrical trouble and they even do not know what tool it is.

Waterson

OP what engine is in your Grand Picasso and what year is it? 1.6 HDi or 2.0?

Just to be clear, you have what was an intermittent crank no start problem is now a no start problem.

Your mechanic has done a scan and pulled no fault codes. Did he use a scanner with the EOBD protocol which may not present factory specific fault codes. I can guarantee if you have a crank/ no start symptom you will have a fault code logged in the engine computer.

Your engine is either missing a critical sensor input (crankshaft position/camshaft position/fuel pressure), your mechanical timing is off or you have a fuel supply issue, most common rail diesels like the PSA engines wont start with a rail pressure below 250 BAR.

I don't know your mechanic and I don't know what was done in your last service. I do know however that a lot of garages neglect to change fuel filters for a variety of reasons, and a clogged fuel filter could certainly cause your symptoms.

Feel free to PM for further advise.

w211

Look where many fuel filters locating and then you understand why they do not want to touch these. Inside the tank and non replaceable. Replace the entire fuel supply unit. Do not worry, they will one day if the 2nd, 3th or 4th fuel pump goes. The fuel pump assembly does not have a long life span if the filter are clogged. Both units are designed to replace together. Yes high cost but it is what it is. Go, go, my "fan club"

Toyotafanboi

Mad thread. I'd say a lay person going at this problem with a cheap scan tool has about as much as a snowballs chance in hell of getting anywhere with this.

Mobile diagnostics isn't really a thing OP, it was a bit years ago but not anymore and anyone who you do get out now will still charge you €50 - 100 or whatever to hand you a list of fault codes that neither he nor you knows what to do with.

Honestly I don't think your mechanic checked the car at all, he took your handy money for the service and knew he could fob you off with the old chestnut "take it for a good blast" which is most crap mechanics response to a customer when the letters "DPF" are mentioned. It's all to easy to say "there was no codes stored, take it for a blast", if you look that up in the bad mechanics bible, that's code speak for "I have no interest and I didn't look very hard".

Best advice would be to look for recommendations for a good mechanic in your area. Just because it's not starting, doesn't mean it's a huge problem and the best money you can spend in the long run on this is a good mechanics opinion. Recovery will likely be less than you think or if you have breakdown assist on your insurance they will recover it for you.

w211

The engine needs 3 main component the fuel/air mixture, compression and spark. The diesel engine does not need the last part, because compression will ignite the mixture. All these components must be on right ratio and on right time. By same principle works 100 year old engines and the modern engines. Yes the electronics makes it bit complicated, but on same time easier too.

spockety

Thanks for the replies.

He actually did replace the fuel filter during the interval service as he said it looked to him like it was knackered. But he didn't associate this with the intermittent starting issue that I can recall (but my recollection might be wrong).

I appreciate all the advice, my instinct for the last 20 years has always been to do what work I can on my own car, from standard interval fluids/filters, to brake overhauls with replacement calipers, suspension components, some electrical etc etc. I guess I just trust myself with a Haynes!

If the prevaling wisdom is there's no point at all in even seeing if there's a fix here I can do in my driveway myself (and as I said, some of the reading I've done on these cars tells me there are some issues with these symptoms which are very simple to fix) then I'll take that on board and get it to a mechanic. In one sense it's disappointing that on a Motors forum people think it's bonkers to want to tinker with your own car, but what can I say.

Cheers.

p.s. Recommendations for one of these "trusted" mechanics in Dublin 16/24 anyone?

jimgoose

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

Mad thread. I'd say a lay person going at this problem with a cheap scan tool has about as much as a snowballs chance in hell of getting anywhere with this...

Quite true. But a Person of Clue with a commodity ELM327 interface and something like Torque for Android can pull core powertrain OBD-II fault codes from most modern yokes and that, being the computer's "opinion" of what's wrong, is usually a good place to start.

Toyotafanboi

Really though, that's a great explanation of how an engine from 50 years ago runs but it's no use to the OP with a Grand Picasso in his front yard, staring back at him not starting.

Based on what the OP has told us there could literally be anything wrong with this car. It could have a flat battery, a faulty starter, a blown fuse, a dead ECU.

There could have been a cat nesting in his engine bay that got tangled in the aux belt system when OP went to start the car and it got sucked around the crank pulley and caused the timing belt to come off and now he has bent valves and cracked piston heads. Youd probably get a cam/ crank correlation fault code for that, it'd be no use to you though.

OP needs a good mechanic, really.

spockety

Waterson wrote: »

OP what engine is in your Grand Picasso and what year is it? 1.6 HDi or 2.0?

2008 1.6HDI with 150K Km on the clock.

Waterson

I can understand the OP's attitude, there are a lot of mechanics out there who invested in a computer but perhaps not the training to interpret the data output and there are an abundance of parts changers also who will take your money and chuck parts at a problem until they may or may not hit lucky, all at the customer's expense.
If this no start cant be diagnosed within an hour or at least a solid direction found to begin testing components/systems, then you have yourself a fitter/mechanic and not a diagnostic technician. So OP if you approach any of the garages in your area, and after a few hours they haven't got anywhere, walk away.

spockety

Just a quick update on this.

I found exactly what I was looking for from my original post. A user on this forum who is a professional mechanic got in touch, has all the right diagnostics equipment, and diagnosed the fault correctly outside my own house in less than a couple of hours. It was a dodgy EGR valve, common enough on these.

He got the car running so that it could be driven to his workshop, where he fitted a brand new EGR valve at a very reasonable price, including a 12 month warranty on the work and part.

Having read horror stories from C4GP owners of mechanics going off down expensive rabbit holes, I'm delighted and happy to recommend.

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