no lease signed last year - can I leave?

BornIn84

Hi guys,

Management agency has sent us a letter if we try and move out mid-lease and get a new person in to rent.

We got a letter in from our management agency who say they used to "absorb" these costs for when at tenant moved out but now as tenants they say we have to!
It seems absolutely extortionate. We have a number of people move in and out of here over the years in mid-lease without issue.
One guy moved out in Jan and took the agency to the RTB as this is the first time we'd heard of these fees. He's awaiting his case.
Now they have sent us a fee breakdown of the costs incurred if we move out mid year.
The amount totals 690 euro

I am planning to move out soon and a part of me feels like getting someone new in and saying nothing to the agency because they'll charge me these prices and basically wipe out my deposit.
Should i go the RTB route too or just get someone else in myself?

SCREENSHOT Attached.

dudara

I can understand them charging fees to some degree as you are breaking the lease and causing work.& however it does seem excessive, plus I don’t understand why they consulted a solicitor?

Subutai

Not sure that the RTB route is going to be much use to you. This is one of the areas where the law is not on your side.

You are moving out mid-lease and assigning your tenancy. This is allowable under s 16(k) of the Residential Tenancies Act 2004: The landlord may withhold consent to assignment, but then s 186 comes into play which would permit you to issue a notice of termination.

In considering whether or not to consent to assignment (or subletting, or improvement), the landlord may require the tenant to reimburse him/her for any expenses incurred in that consideration, whether this is granted or refused. This is allowed by s 17(3) of the 2004 Act:

(3) The landlord shall be entitled to be reimbursed by the tenant any costs or expenses reasonably incurred by him or her in deciding upon a request for consent in relation to the tenant's doing a thing referred to in paragraph (k), (l) or (m) of section 16 (whether the consent is granted or refused).

The question here is not really whether your landlord can impose these charges on you, but rather whether the amount of the charges is reasonable.

In the case of Oglesby v. Miszkiel & Anor the respondent tenants succeeded in finding new tenants to replace them when they moved back to their previous home, having signed a fixed term lease in respect of the applicant landlord's property. The landlord successfully recovered damages of €490.77 for his costs in checking the new tenants references and the preparation of new contracts, i.e. those costs ‘expended by the Landlord in procurement of her Agents’ services to administer the changeover on foot of the assignment of the tenancy’.


I cannot see you having massive success in an RTB case. It might be possible that the charges might be reduced somewhat if the RTB considered that some of the items that the agent says make up the charge (the inspections and return of the deposit in particular) were costs in the ordinary course of being a landlord. Probably wouldn't be much, certainly not worth your time and effort tbh.


Do not simply assign the tenancy without consent. That would be a breach of your obligations, and you will be liable for damages which would likely be at least the quantum of the charges being levied here and would also include rent arrears that would build up in a deemed termination (28 days plus your notice period where no notice was provided).

BornIn84

apparently it's a Part 4 tenancy which I'm not sure would help.
Also, I do not remember signing a lease last year - could that be a get out clause?

Thanks

dudara

when did you sign your last lease and what was the end date on that lease?

It’s possible that you’re no longer under lease, but under Part IV. That would significantly change the story, and hence the advice you get.

genericgoon

BornIn84 wrote: »

apparently it's a Part 4 tenancy which I'm not sure would help.
Also, I do not remember signing a lease last year - could that be a get out clause?

Thanks

If you are definitely on a part 4 tenancy then you can break the tenancy without reason, assuming appropriate notice.

Subutai

BornIn84 wrote: »

apparently it's a Part 4 tenancy which I'm not sure would help.
Also, I do not remember signing a lease last year - could that be a get out clause?

Thanks

If you are not in a fixed-term lease arrangement then why are you bothering to get someone else in?

If you are in a periodic Part 4 tenancy then you can simply serve a notice of termination. You may do this at any time, and for any reason.

Make sure that your notice of termination satisfies all of the requirements of s 62 of the 2004 Act.

You must also respect the notice periods. Thoe are set out in s 66:

Duration of Tenancy | Notice Period
Less than 6 months | 28 days
6 or more months but less than 1 year | 35 days
1 year or more but less than 2 years | 42 days
2 or more but less than 4 years | 56 days
4 years or more but less than 8 years | 84 days
8 or more years | 112 days

BornIn84

"If you are not in a fixed-term lease arrangement then why are you bothering to get someone else in? "

I don't understand this question. I'm potentially moving out but my housemates are not.
Thanks

Subutai

BornIn84 wrote: »

"If you are not in a fixed-term lease arrangement then why are you bothering to get someone else in? "

I don't understand this question. I'm potentially moving out but my housemates are not.
Thanks

If you are in a fixed term tenancy then you have a problem, as you will be required to find someone else in order to leave your fixed term early. You need to find this out first, by finding the last lease you signed, checking the end day, and then ensuring that you did not agree to a further fixed term subsequently (likely by signing a new lease).

If you have a part 4 tenancy (i.e., you have continued living there and paying rent subsequent to the expiry of your fixed-term lease) then you do not need to find someone else, merely serve a notice of termination that complies with what I said above: the RTB provide a sample you can use and amend to your circumstances and then check against the requirements.



Having housemates complicates matters somewhat. You will need to provide further information if people are to understand your situation.

1. Iniitially did you all sign the same lease (a), or did you sign separate leases (b).

2. Do you all pay rent together as one payment (a), or do you pay separate amounts to the landlord/agent separately (b).


If (a) is your answer then you all have a single tenancy and things are more complicated. If (b) then you are multiple part 4 tenants and you can proceed as outlined in terminating your own part 4 tenancy.

Determining which applies can be tricky without knowing all the details, but if you all signed separate leases and pay separate rents then you can be reasonably sure that you are multiple part 4 tenants, rather than being multiple individuals joint and severally liable for one tenancy.

BornIn84

Hi all,

I have to give the management agency short notice that i'm leaving my apartment (10 days)
I messaged my agency about it.
We sign our least every July but last July we did not sign a new lease. No one in the apartment can remember signing one or being asked to sign.

As a side point to this, the agency were brought to the RTB by one of the previous housemates for adding 700 "fees" for trying to move out.

The agency admitted they have no copy of a lease for us in that meeting with the RTB and cannot find any.

We have a part for tenancy -I am there almost 3 years.
I'm under pressure to move into a new apartment and plan on getting a new tenant for my current apartment so as to not leave my current housemates high and dry.

Question is:
If they cannot produce a lease, do I have any obligation to stay longer or give a longer notice period?
Also in the RTB meeting that the previous housemate had with the RTB he was informed that because of our part 4 tenancy we could just up and leave.

Any input would be appreciated.

Fol20

BornIn84 wrote: »

Hi all,

I have to give the management agency short notice that i'm leaving my apartment (10 days)
I messaged my agency about it.
We sign our least every July but last July we did not sign a new lease. No one in the apartment can remember signing one or being asked to sign.

As a side point to this, the agency were brought to the RTB by one of the previous housemates for adding 700 "fees" for trying to move out.

The agency admitted they have no copy of a lease for us in that meeting with the RTB and cannot find any.

We have a part for tenancy -I am there almost 3 years.
I'm under pressure to move into a new apartment and plan on getting a new tenant for my current apartment so as to not leave my current housemates high and dry.

Question is:
If they cannot produce a lease, do I have any obligation to stay longer or give a longer notice period?
Also in the RTB meeting that the previous housemate had with the RTB he was informed that because of our part 4 tenancy we could just up and leave.

Any input would be appreciated.

Leases dont matter. You runder part 4 so you need to follow that. Check the RTB wbesite and depending on how long you have stayed there for will dictate how much notice you need to give.

Since you have lodged a dispute with the RTB already and win by the sounds of it. I wouldnt give you any benefit of the doubt. If it says 3 months and you want to give one. I would force you to give the 3 months and or withold the deposit if the incorrect notice is given

Claw Hammer

Even if you don't have a written lease, there is a minimum notice period. It seems that you are the only person moving out and therefore what you need to do is substitute another person in your place. If the rest of your housemates are not moving out then there is no notice requirement. What you are seeking to do is have a partial assignment.

Treviso

per part 4 tenancy, you are required to give 56 days notice in writing

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/types_of_tenancy.html

However, if you are trying to get a replacement tenant, the agency might forego this notice and have the new tenant take your place.

BornIn84

hi all,

Ye it's only me moving out.
No one else is.
I have a replacement tenant almost lined up.

BornIn84

spoke to Threshold today and they said the same.
No notice period required provided i get someone in before next rent is due.

Claw Hammer

BornIn84 wrote: »

hi all,

Ye it's only me moving out.
No one else is.
I have a replacement tenant almost lined up.

Well then just swap over. Have the existing tenants tell the agency what has happened after you have moved out.

Treviso

What will happen with your deposit? Do you intend to ask the agency for it, or the new tenant?

BornIn84

Well the agency have a tendency to ask for "solicitor fees" and "agency fees" that amount to 690 when you move out and basically hold your deposit to ransom until you pay them.
So it basically wipes out your deposit cos it was around 700 quid.

I don't want to pay them since I don't believe we have a lease. And to be honest any estate agent i've asked has said that sounds extortionate. that's why the previous guy brought them to the RTB where he found out they don't have any signed lease from us last year.

so to be honest I think i want to ask the person moving in for the deposit and let them continue to the next months payment.

Plus when i first moved in, i paid my deposit to the person moving out at that time and so forth.

Fol20

BornIn84 wrote: »

Well the agency have a tendency to ask for "solicitor fees" and "agency fees" that amount to 690 when you move out and basically hold your deposit to ransom until you pay them.
So it basically wipes out your deposit cos it was around 700 quid.

I don't want to pay them since I don't believe we have a lease. And to be honest any estate agent i've asked has said that sounds extortionate. that's why the previous guy brought them to the RTB where he found out they don't have any signed lease from us last year.

so to be honest I think i want to ask the person moving in for the deposit and let them continue to the next months payment.

Plus when i first moved in, i paid my deposit to the person moving out at that time and so forth.

Honestly dont understand what you are trying to say. If you know an ea why are you coming online to a public forum, they would know everything from a practical level. You keep focusing on the lease. The lease may have some rules for you to follow but thats about it. It sounds like tou dont want to listen to what people are saying here as you will do you anyway

Treviso

BornIn84 wrote: »

so to be honest I think i want to ask the person moving in for the deposit and let them continue to the next months payment.

I hope you will be informing the new tenant of the chances of them recovering their deposit from the agency is zero. Maybe asking for half the deposit would be fair

Graham

Mod Note

Threads merged

the_syco

BornIn84 wrote: »

spoke to Threshold today and they said the same.
No notice period required provided i get someone in before next rent is due.

So you are going to shaft the person that you get in?