Engagment Ring Dispute

SparkleSwizz25

I bought a lab diamond engagement ring from an independent jewellery shop in Leinster last year. The woman I dealt with was a pal and talked me out of other stones, saying she could get very, very good value on lab diamonds.

Now, a year later, I was chatting to another jeweller - a master jeweller with decades of experience - and he said my ring wasn't a diamond at all. He said it was basically like a cubic zirconia. Now, I'd actually become very good pals with the woman who sold me the ring so I protested a bit. He went through the whole thing with me at great length and left me with no doubt in my mind that the centre stone wasn't a lab diamond. I also got a second opinion from another very reputable jeweller who confirmed it wasn't a diamond.

I said all this to the original store owner and offered to hand the ring back for a refund, that I wouldn't pursue it further.

Unfortunately, there's been quite a back and forth. She issued us with a valuation cert that said my centre stone is a "man-made" diamond but has since said it is "not a real diamond" and that we were sold a "lab stone" which we question, obviously. We said that lab diamonds are chemically identical to mined/natural diamonds so they should be "real" but she doesn't address this directly. My read on it is that this might be some man-made diamond simulant and she has conflated this with genuine lab diamonds in her head. She's not actually a jeweller herself, she owns the store and deals with customers. She pays for the use of a workshop. However, she has called it a diamond on the cert so I feel like she doesn't have a leg to stand on.

She wants us to give the ring back to her so she can have it sent to her labs. She's saying that she bought it on the understanding that it was a lab diamond. However, we are reluctant to let her get her hands on it. Plus, multiple jewellers have confirmed that it isn't a diamond now. One of them knew from a distance.

We're going to meet with a solicitor next week but just wanted to see if anyone had any advice or experience of something like this. Thanks in advance!

Henry Ford III

What did your intended say?

Time

Henry Ford III wrote: »

What did your intended say?

Thats absolutely irrelevant to the consumer issue at hand. If true it's a blatant case of mis-selling. As for what to do, wait and see what you solicitor says, i'd be interested to know how much you paid though as that will be very relevant.

Rows Grower

Time wrote: »

Thats absolutely irrelevant to the consumer issue at hand. If true it's a blatant case of mis-selling. As for what to do, wait and see what you solicitor says, i'd be interested to know how much you paid though as that will be very relevant.

How is it relevant?

If something was sold under false pretences the price is as relevant as to whether the lady said Yes or No.

tedpan

I thought lab diamonds are basically man made diamonds (cubic zirconia)?

rubadub

tedpan wrote: »

I thought lab diamonds are basically man made diamonds (cubic zirconia)?

https://www.miadonna.com/pages/stone-guide-compare-stones

Time

Rows Grower wrote: »

How is it relevant?

If something was sold under false pretences the price is as relevant as to whether the lady said Yes or No.

Because €2000 or less falls within the remit of the Small Claims Court. So OP would avoid the cost of a solicitor and would have it resolved quickly

L1011

Lab diamonds *are* diamonds. They are just manufacturered rather than mined.

Cubic zirconia is a completely different thing

Not really relevant to the issue here as it appears the OP fully understands that though

coylemj

L1011 wrote: »

Lab diamonds *are* diamonds. They are just manufacturered rather than mined.

I didn't think any manufacturing process was (as of 2019) capable of producing gem-class diamonds.

I've been multiple times to the De Beers (now Element Six) plant in Shannon and they showed me the diamonds they produce, they're destined for industrial equipment like cutting and drilling tools. What I saw was a bowl of dirty little pieces of glass, nowhere near gem-class diamonds.

rubadub

coylemj wrote: »

I didn't think any manufacturing process was (as of 2019) capable of producing gem-class diamonds..

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-diamonds-debeers-synthetic-factbox/factbox-how-man-made-diamonds-have-grown-to-threaten-natural-gems-idUSKCN1OK0N4

The growing acceptance of man-made diamonds by millennials has spurred De Beers to reverse its policy of shunning the sector for jewelry and to launch its own laboratory-grown diamonds through its Lightbox jewelry brand.

The move potentially threatens the profits of rival lab-grown gem producers but could also undermine De Beers’ natural diamond business if it broadens the appeal of stones created in a lab.

Rows Grower

Time wrote: »

Because €2000 or less falls within the remit of the Small Claims Court. So OP would avoid the cost of a solicitor and would have it resolved quickly

The services of the solicitor are already arranged.

doublej

Rows Grower wrote: »

The services of the solicitor are already arranged.

The service arranged is a consultation, only after the meeting would OP decide the next course of action.
This may be a Small Claim Court action or a Civil Action or a complaint to CCPC or Gardai or any other number of actions( or none).
The appointment does not restrict, prevent, preclude or constrain any future direction for OP.

Phileas Frog

coylemj wrote: »

I didn't think any manufacturing process was (as of 2019) capable of producing gem-class diamonds.

I've been multiple times to the De Beers (now Element Six) plant in Shannon and they showed me the diamonds they produce, they're destined for industrial equipment like cutting and drilling tools. What I saw was a bowl of dirty little pieces of glass, nowhere near gem-class diamonds.

You know what diamonds look like when they come out of the ground? Dirty little pieces of glass...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4PazrvK9-s

Rows Grower

doublej wrote: »

The service arranged is a consultation, only after the meeting would OP decide the next course of action.
This may be a Small Claim Court action or a Civil Action or a complaint to CCPC or Gardai or any other number of actions( or none).
The appointment does not restrict, prevent, preclude or constrain any future direction for OP.

What is the point you are trying to make doublej?

evolving_doors

Don't waste your time and money.
1. It's based on hearsay...although she says you got what she said so...
2. Lab diamonds. .. whatever you wanna call em, you are going to be employing an expert to counter someone who's in the trade.

Del2005

SparkleSwizz25 wrote: »

She wants us to give the ring back to her so she can have it sent to her labs. She's saying that she bought it on the understanding that it was a lab diamond. However, we are reluctant to let her get her hands on it. Plus, multiple jewellers have confirmed that it isn't a diamond now. One of them knew from a distance.

We're going to meet with a solicitor next week but just wanted to see if anyone had any advice or experience of something like this. Thanks in advance!

If you don't give her a chance to remedy the issue you can weaken your chances when you do go legal. What could she do to it apart from put in a real diamond if it is a fake one?

coylemj

Phileas Frog wrote: »

You know what diamonds look like when they come out of the ground? Dirty little pieces of glass...

https://youtube.com/watch?v=C4PazrvK9-s

By 'dirty', I meant multiple shades of brown. That stone in your video has no discolouration and is destined to be cut into gem-class diamonds.

Like these little stones, would you call them 'dirty little pices of glass'? If 'yes' then you're conflating opacity with dirty. And your bathroom window is filthy.

evolving_doors

Del2005 wrote: »

If you don't give her a chance to remedy the issue you can weaken your chances when you do go legal. What could she do to it apart from put in a real diamond if it is a fake one?

What's there to remedy? She told him they weren't mined diamonds and that's what he got.

dudara

evolving_doors wrote: »

What's there to remedy? She told him they weren't mined diamonds and that's what he got.

But if he was expecting a lab-grown diamond, and paid for a lab-grown diamond, that’s what he should have gotten. If I’m reading it correctly, it sounds like he a got a cubic zirconium or similar e.g. not a diamond.

evolving_doors

dudara wrote: »

But if he was expecting a lab-grown diamond, and paid for a lab-grown diamond, that’s what he should have gotten. If I’m reading it correctly, it sounds like he a got a cubic zirconium or similar e.g. not a diamond.

Ahh ok I see now. Cubic Zirconia ain't diamond which I thought they were... good description here... https://www.miadonna.com/pages/stone-guide-compare-stones

makes it more clear cut.

Actually if she calls it a diamond on the cert then that's a bit of a porky and you have a paper trail.
Also if you got a cubic zirc and they charged lab made prices then it would expose the lie.

Another tactic would be to get someone to go in and say they wanted a similar ring (take a photo of yours) with cubic zirconia as they were going travelling and wanted to leave their original ring at home. It shouldn't be expensive.
See what type of cert they give and how much they charge.
Maybe get a distant friend to put a query on their Facebook page if they have one
Small claims court will want to see if you've exhausted possibilities of resolving it so at the least send a registered letter (and email).

I'd imagine any jewellers' reputation would be in bits if they were thought be be selling imitation diamonds.

coylemj

evolving_doors wrote: »

I'd imagine any jewellers' reputation would be in bits if they were thought be be selling imitation diamonds.

Of course. Because everyone knows that cublic zirconia isn't a diamond.

evolving_doors wrote: »

Ahh ok I see now. Cubic Zirconia ain't diamond which I thought they were...

c6ysaphjvqw41k

You can buy a Lab Diamond or a Natural Diamond. Both are real diamonds, but lab diamonds are grown and are said to be about 30% cheaper. They are still diamonds and graded reports should specify "Lab Grown". Brilliant Earth are one of the largest sellers of Lab Grown Diamonds. https://www.brilliantearth.com/

You can also buy simulated diamonds which are not diamond and are fake. This is probably what the OP got. It is not a diamond. I have a natural diamond and I wanted a conflict free one. I would have been equally happy to take a lab grown diamond from someone like Brilliant Earth because they are by their nature sustainable and conflict free. I would not be happy with a simulated diamond because it isnt a diamond! Hope you get it sorted OP.

https://4cs.gia.edu/en-us/blog/what-are-simulated-diamonds/

troyzer

Cubic Zirconia and lab grown diamonds are completely different and easy to tell apart by a mineralogist (an area I work in).

Sounds like the shop owner was sold a pup and didn't have the expertise to spot so passed the bull**** on.

I'd be demanding a refund or threaten to issue summons. What they do with the ring and their own supplier is their business but you shouldn't have to wait for that outcome. If you have a piece of paper from them that says it's a diamond then they're snookered.

SparkleSwizz25

Thanks for all the replies.

So I think a few people have hit on what I am guessing has happened here. The store owner herself thought lab diamonds and diamond simulants were one and the same, or at least thought she could pass them off as being the same.

She's since said we were "not sold a real diamond" and when responded that lab diamonds are chemically identical to real diamonds, and was she disputing that, she responded that she "wasn't disputing anything" - which is the kind of confusing communication we've had with her in the last few weeks.

Appointment with a lawyer is this week. We've told her we're getting legal advice and will bring this to court and are baffled that she's letting it go on like this. To us, she's so clearly in the wrong and we can't see how she's willing to let this go to the courts. On another note, I'm actually worried that we could be screwed over if we get a judge who doesn't know about lab diamonds - especially after reading some of the comments here from people who thought they were basically CZs. Fingers crossed that's not the case!

c6ysaphjvqw41k

I suppose it depends what you paid for it aswell. If you were buying a lab grown diamond you would expect to be paying only slightly less than the price for the same mined diamond. If it was simulated, CZ etc. the value would be very little and you wouldnt be paying much for it. If the shop owner sold you a simulated diamond or CZ or similar but was selling it for the same price as a lab grown one I dont know how they can turn around now and claim ignorance.

Toots

I’d say you’re putting the cart before the horse when it comes to worrying about a judge. If she’s given ye a receipt for a diamond ring, has given you a cert saying it’s a diamond, and charged you for a diamond, she can’t now claim she didn’t sell it to you as a diamond. I would be surprised if it actually got to court. If she gets a letter from your solicitor and then seeks legal advice of her own, they’ll most likely tell her to refund you.

dudara

SparkleSwizz25 wrote: »

On another note, I'm actually worried that we could be screwed over if we get a judge who doesn't know about lab diamonds - especially after reading some of the comments here from people who thought they were basically CZs. Fingers crossed that's not the case!

If (and that's a big if) it gets to court, experts will be called to testify. The judge won't be relying on his own knowledge. So don't worry about that.

First things first, meet your solicitor and understand what's possible.

skinny90

SparkleSwizz25 wrote: »

Thanks for all the replies.

So I think a few people have hit on what I am guessing has happened here. The store owner herself thought lab diamonds and diamond simulants were one and the same, or at least thought she could pass them off as being the same.

She's since said we were "not sold a real diamond" and when responded that lab diamonds are chemically identical to real diamonds, and was she disputing that, she responded that she "wasn't disputing anything" - which is the kind of confusing communication we've had with her in the last few weeks.

Appointment with a lawyer is this week. We've told her we're getting legal advice and will bring this to court and are baffled that she's letting it go on like this. To us, she's so clearly in the wrong and we can't see how she's willing to let this go to the courts. On another note, I'm actually worried that we could be screwed over if we get a judge who doesn't know about lab diamonds - especially after reading some of the comments here from people who thought they were basically CZs. Fingers crossed that's not the case!

Yeah business might be getting advice also from there side hence why they are letting it go that far. Anyways, il the best