OSS-Ovary Sparing Spay

em_cat

Does anyone know of any Vet Practice that offers OSS instead of the standard spay surgery?

tk123

Paul Kelly in Ratoath does it. I actually had Lucy booked in with them but then Bailey has his jaw issues and I decided I wanted to stick with my vet at the time and she had traditional spay instead. She was fine the next day.

Kerny21

em_cat wrote: »

Does anyone know of any Vet Practice that offers OSS instead of the standard spay surgery?

Hi Em_cat, just wondering did you ever manage to get your girl that OSS? I've a rotten girl coming on 5 months now and I think it's the way to go with her. Love to know how ye got on!

anewme

What is this?

em_cat

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Kerny21 wrote: »

Hi Em_cat, just wondering did you ever manage to get your girl that OSS? I've a rotten girl coming on 5 months now and I think it's the way to go with her. Love to know how ye got on!

Hiya, Esmae got the OSS, Ovary Sparing Spay ( tube tying as opposed to a full hysterectomy) . Our local vet carried it out, however it’s not a standard procedure in the vet practice. We’ve been going to this vet for over 15 years so I had confidence in her.

Esmae is doing fine & no issues so far. She’s a pretty happy go lucky lil princess with some moody days thrown in for good measure...

Kerny21

em_cat wrote: »

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Hiya, Esmae got the OSS, Ovary Sparing Spay ( tube tying as opposed to a full hysterectomy) . Our local vet carried it out, however it’s not a standard procedure in the vet practice. We’ve been going to this vet for over 15 years so I had confidence in her.

Esmae is doing fine & no issues so far. She’s a pretty happy go lucky lil princess with some moody days thrown in for good measure...

Thanks for that, it's great to hear she's doing well! Yes I'm finding it hard to be honest to find anybody doing anything alternative... I think people should be more progressive in their thinking, especially with the larger breeds. So it was a tubal ligation as opposed to oss then? As oss is a hysterectomy.

tk123

Kerny21 wrote: »

Thanks for that, it's great to hear she's doing well! Yes I'm finding it hard to be honest to find anybody doing anything alternative... I think people should be more progressive in their thinking, especially with the larger breeds. So it was a tubal ligation as opposed to oss then? As oss is a hysterectomy.

If you have a large breed dog (has spell check changed rottie to rotten)..at 5 months you don’t need to worry about any type of spaying for at least another year.

em_cat

Kerny21 wrote: »

Thanks for that, it's great to hear she's doing well! Yes I'm finding it hard to be honest to find anybody doing anything alternative... I think people should be more progressive in their thinking, especially with the larger breeds. So it was a tubal ligation as opposed to oss then? As oss is a hysterectomy.

Sorry, i was attempting to answer 2 posts at once, yes she had the OSS, cervix & uterus removal, keeping the ovaries.

Kerny21

tk123 wrote: »

If you have a large breed dog (has spell check changed rottie to rotten)..at 5 months you don’t need to worry about any type of spaying for at least another year.

Ha yes it's a rottweiler I have! Thanks for that, I just wanna have my research done by then. I'll definitely not be doing anything before her first heat, if I end up doing anything at all.

Kerny21

em_cat wrote: »

Sorry, i was attempting to answer 2 posts at once, yes she had the OSS, cervix & uterus removal, keeping the ovaries.

Is there any way you can refer me to your vet? I'd really love to keep the benefits of the hormones while eliminating the pyo risk...

em_cat

Kerny21 wrote: »

Is there any way you can refer me to your vet? I'd really love to keep the benefits of the hormones while eliminating the pyo risk...

It’s not a standard in their practice but I’ll defo ask if them for you on Tuesday as I’m up there collecting some meds. I’d also contact Paul Kelly Vets in Ratoath as they do it far more regularly & they will have more experience.

I know that JP, one of the main vets & owner doesn’t do it and I’m not sure if the actual vet that did her spay is still there, he was English & may have gone back to the UK, I’ve not seen him in the last year. I’m up there quite regularly as we foster.

I’ll drop you a pm.

Kerny21

em_cat wrote: »

It’s not a standard in their practice but I’ll defo ask if them for you on Tuesday as I’m up there collecting some meds. I’d also contact Paul Kelly Vets in Ratoath as they do it far more regularly & they will have more experience.

I know that JP, one of the main vets & owner doesn’t do it and I’m not sure if the actual vet that did her spay is still there, he was English & may have gone back to the UK, I’ve not seen him in the last year. I’m up there quite regularly as we foster.

I’ll drop you a pm.

Thanks ever so much for your help, I'm based in Cork but I don't mind making the trip! I'll definitely call Paul Kelly too ðŸ‘

tk123

Kerny21 wrote: »

Thanks ever so much for your help, I'm based in Cork but I don't mind making the trip! I'll definitely call Paul Kelly too ðŸ‘

Sunbeam does it in Cork.. I remember from when I was planning like yourself! ... But this thread has helped me decide that if I have the option I’m taking a boy pup lol - one less thing to plan and worry about!

SuziXX

I don’t think sunbeam does it? They do keyhole spaying where they remove the ovaries only. Our dog had a laparoscopic spay in Gilabbey last year and there was no down time at all after it, I’d recommend if you end up going down that route instead. Whatever you decide I would go to someone who does the procedure regularly

tk123

You’re right! I’m mixing the two up >_<

Alun

On the topic of OSS, I've always been curious about how they ensure the blood supply to the ovaries if the uterus has been removed. Wouldn't it involve some rather intricate vascular surgery, thus making what was a fairly simple and routine procedure a lot more complicated? Just wondering.

omicron

Kerny21 wrote: »

Is there any way you can refer me to your vet? I'd really love to keep the benefits of the hormones while eliminating the pyo risk...

Ovary sparing spay does not eliminate pyo risk, you can still get a full pyo if it's just tubes tied or a stump pyo if you have an ovary sparing hysterectomy.

OSS is controversial among vets as it could be considered unethical, there is no benefit to the bitch having it done only to the owner not having to control their dog during their season, they can still get all the conditions that a spay can prevent.
No reduction in pyo.
No reduction in risk of mammary tumours, ovarian cysts and tumours, cystic endometrial hyperplasia etc.

tk123

omicron wrote: »

Ovary sparing spay does not eliminate pyo risk, you can still get a full pyo if it's just tubes tied or a stump pyo if you have an ovary sparing hysterectomy.

OSS is controversial among vets as it could be considered unethical, there is no benefit to the bitch having it done only to the owner not having to control their dog during their season, they can still get all the conditions that a spay can prevent.
No reduction in pyo.
No reduction in risk of mammary tumours, ovarian cysts and tumours, cystic endometrial hyperplasia etc.

I would have thought the benefit is hormones which help to prevent other types of cancers, joint and behavioural
issues. Anyone who is on here researching methods 1-2 years in advance of spaying is clearly not the type of owner who would ever NOT be in control of their dog whether they’re in season or not(!)

Kerny have you spoken to your own vet about this? It’a perfectly ok to go to another practice when needed and your vet might recommend somebody. (My guy goes to 2 different practices for different things). If you’re travelling up from Cork for the procedure your vet might take over and do the follow up care and save you a trip up - my vet in Dublin did follow up care like wound care/redressing etc when we went down to Cork for surgeries years ago for example.

omicron

tk123 wrote: »

I would have thought the benefit is hormones which help to prevent other types of cancers, joint and behavioural
issues. Anyone who is on here researching methods 1-2 years in advance of spaying is clearly not the type of owner who would ever NOT be in control of their dog whether they’re in season or not

The benefit of the hormones exists naturally, whether or not you put the dog through a procedure to prevent reproduction.

The main justification for surgical neutering is that the benefit of removing the hormones is significant in the female- from a pyometra and cancer point of view - not just prevention of pregnancy. This benefit exists even taking in to account the possible effects of joint disease, incontinence and behavioural issues, most of which can be avoided by neutering when mature.

It's along the same lines as cosmetic tail docking , ear cropping or claw removal, there is no benefit to the animal in these procedures which is why they are considered unethical.

DBB

Wellll... there's the first inkling of signs of a change of attitude coming down the road when it comes to full ovariohysterectomy, or just hysterectomy (OSS).
There has been a meta analysis carried out which investigated the research to date on the risk of various cancers associated with leaving a female hormonally intact, particularly in relation to mammary cancers, and it turns out we've been kinda sold a pup in relation to the level of risk. It's nowhere near what was previously thought, based on the research available.
In addition, another thing that's coming down the line is the very real risk of spaying females at the wrong time of their cycle, which, it turns out, is almost all of it. The conventional advice has always been to spay mid-cycle, so... 12ish weeks after the start of their last heat. The problem with this is that all females go through a pseudopregnancy following heat... many of them show no or few behavioural symptoms, but hormonally, they are all still in pseudopregnancy by the time the conventional time of spaying comes around at mid-cycle.
The risk is that if you spay them now, with a full ovariohysterectomy, you will put them into a state called "persistent pseudopregnancy". The symptoms fall into 2 categories.
The first is an almost immediate appearance of aggressive or anxious behaviour following the spay.
The 2nd is more insidious... the appearance of aggressive or anxious behaviour long after the spay (weeks or months). In this event, because it's insidious and happens so far after the spay that the connection is not made, owners often don't take action for some time, so it could actually be a couple of years before they seek the help of a behaviourist, rather than their vet.
If a female does get stuck in this state of persistent pseudopregnancy, the treatment is very straightforward, and works very quickly... it's a hormonal treatment which restores the hormones to where a spay is meant to leave them.
To avoid this risk of persistent pseudopregnancy, there are a few options.

One is to spay before the first heat.. but this, we now know, brings its own significant potential health issues re joint development, cancers, and an the underrated effect of potentially compromising psychological development.

One is to perform an OSS, so that the reproductive hormones can cycle normally and without interruption, in the knowledge that the risk of traditionally associated cancers is significantly lower than has been thought.

One is to leave the female intact.

One is to carry out a full spay, but... and this is hugely important, it must NOT be done mid-cycle as per traditional advice. To allow the hormones (specifically prolactin) to reduce down to very low levels, a period of 19 weeks must be left from the start of bleeding in the previous heat before the full spay is done.
This is going to make vets itchy, because it's getting very close to the next heat, and it's not advised to spay in the 4 weeks leading up to the next heat due to the proliferation of blood supply to the reproductive organs.
That leaves a window of opportunity of only a couple a weeks for a full spay to be done such that the risk of persistent pseudopregnancy is avoided, and at a time when it's safe to do so from a surgical perspective.

It is not yet known what proportion of females are at risk of persistent pseudopregnancy.
It is not yet quantified how many females have been put to sleep in the past with seemingly incurable aggression that appeared quite suddenly and out of character.
It is a message that hasn't got out there into the wider audience yet, including vets, but like many other game-changing research (eg Rottweilers, early castration, and osteosarcoma), the word will presumably get out with time. There are already veterinary reproductive specialists in the UK who will not spay females before that 19 week period has passed, or at the very least, will make absolutely certain that there isn't even a hint of hormonal activity associated with pregnancy, before they spay. These practices are also aware of how to treat persistent pseudopregnancy should it, or anything resembling it, occurs in the days, weeks, months or even years following a mid-cycle spay (or a spay that was carried out at an unknown stage of the cycle, eg rescues).
Food for thought. You possibly heard it here first!

Kerny21

omicron wrote: »

Ovary sparing spay does not eliminate pyo risk, you can still get a full pyo if it's just tubes tied or a stump pyo if you have an ovary sparing hysterectomy.

OSS is controversial among vets as it could be considered unethical, there is no benefit to the bitch having it done only to the owner not having to control their dog during their season, they can still get all the conditions that a spay can prevent.
No reduction in pyo.
No reduction in risk of mammary tumours, ovarian cysts and tumours, cystic endometrial hyperplasia etc.

I think the thing is to balance the risk of everything. OSS eliminates the risk of a pyometra completely if done correctly, as in the uterus and cervix must be removed. Yes, hormonal influence still leaves a risk of mammary cancer but mammary tumors are far easier to spot and rectify than osteosarcoma, which is usually well progressed by the time it is spotted. Also the benefit to the dog of having its hormones intact is well researched - proper growth, less risk of hormonal or endocrine disorders such as Addisons, behaviourally rounded and less chance of joint issues, lymphoma, obesity, the list goes on!

Kerny21

Alun wrote: »

On the topic of OSS, I've always been curious about how they ensure the blood supply to the ovaries if the uterus has been removed. Wouldn't it involve some rather intricate vascular surgery, thus making what was a fairly simple and routine procedure a lot more complicated? Just wondering.

The ovary gets its blood supply from the ovarian artery - it is still fully attached to this at the body wall after the uterus is resected from the ovary.

Kerny21

omicron wrote: »

The benefit of the hormones exists naturally, whether or not you put the dog through a procedure to prevent reproduction.

The main justification for surgical neutering is that the benefit of removing the hormones is significant in the female- from a pyometra and cancer point of view - not just prevention of pregnancy. This benefit exists even taking in to account the possible effects of joint disease, incontinence and behavioural issues, most of which can be avoided by neutering when mature.

It's along the same lines as cosmetic tail docking , ear cropping or claw removal, there is no benefit to the animal in these procedures which is why they are considered unethical.

I would say it is completely different to cosmetic procedures which provide zero benefit to an animal. On the other hand, removing a dog's uterus eliminates her risk of pyo and unwanted needless litters of puppies. While keeping her hormones, her body needs them to function correctly. Think of what might happen if ovaries were removed in a human.

Springwell

Kerny21 wrote: »

I think the thing is to balance the risk of everything. OSS eliminates the risk of a pyometra completely if done correctly, as in the uterus and cervix must be removed. Yes, hormonal influence still leaves a risk of mammary cancer but mammary tumors are far easier to spot and rectify than osteosarcoma, which is usually well progressed by the time it is spotted. Also the benefit to the dog of having its hormones intact is well researched - proper growth, less risk of hormonal or endocrine disorders such as Addisons, behaviourally rounded and less chance of joint issues, lymphoma, obesity, the list goes on!

The cervix is not removed in a traditional ovariohysterectomy or in a hysterectomy.

em_cat

@Kerney21 Sorry for the delay in getting back to you.

Spoke to our vet & they are not doing anything beyond the normal spays this year, partly down to COVID but also because they don’t really get the request to do OSS. She did say to phone Paul Kelly's Vet as he’s the best for that type of spay. We’re inner city & the reason they did it for me is bc I’m local and I wasn’t driving at the time due an accident I had been in a few years before, so Rotoath was off the cards at the time, otherwise I’d have taken her down there with the after care at my local.

Kerny21

Springwell wrote: »

The cervix is not removed in a traditional ovariohysterectomy or in a hysterectomy.

Yes, in an ovariohysterectomy it isn't as there is no need, the ovaries are gone and thus the hormonal influence on the cervix is removed, so no chance of a stump pyometra. But in a hysterectomy it is removed, or is supposed to be removed as the ovaries remain and it leaves the cervix open to changes and possibly a pyometra. So any responsible and knowledgeable and skilled vet will remove the cervix during an ovary sparing spay.

Kerny21

em_cat wrote: »

@Kerney21 Sorry for the delay in getting back to you.

Spoke to our vet & they are not doing anything beyond the normal spays this year, partly down to COVID but also because they don’t really get the request to do OSS. She did say to phone Paul Kelly's Vet as he’s the best for that type of spay. We’re inner city & the reason they did it for me is bc I’m local and I wasn’t driving at the time due an accident I had been in a few years before, so Rotoath was off the cards at the time, otherwise I’d have taken her down there with the after care at my local.

Thanks a million, I did phone Paul Kelly's and they confirmed that they will perform the surgery, so unless I find someone closer I'll be going to him. I've heard great things about him anyway so I have completed faith!

Springwell

Kerny21 wrote: »

Yes, in an ovariohysterectomy it isn't as there is no need, the ovaries are gone and thus the hormonal influence on the cervix is removed, so no chance of a stump pyometra. But in a hysterectomy it is removed, or is supposed to be removed as the ovaries remain and it leaves the cervix open to changes and possibly a pyometra. So any responsible and knowledgeable and skilled vet will remove the cervix during an ovary sparing spay.

In the majority of techniques some or all of the cervix will remain after the hysterectomy this may be by design of the surgical technique or due to the difficulty in palpating and identifying all of the cervical tissue.

Kerny21

Springwell wrote: »

In the majority of techniques some or all of the cervix will remain after the hysterectomy this may be by design of the surgical technique or due to the difficulty in palpating and identifying all of the cervical tissue.

It's negligent to leave cervical tissue behind, knowing full well the implications. OSS shouldn't be performed if there is any doubt about one's surgical skill. Everything I've read, mostly US literature, notes that the cervix is removed. It is identified by a light band of tissue and it is resected below that line.

Springwell

Kerny21 wrote: »

It's negligent to leave cervical tissue behind, knowing full well the implications. OSS shouldn't be performed if there is any doubt about one's surgical skill. Everything I've read, mostly US literature, notes that the cervix is removed. It is identified by a light band of tissue and it is resected below that line.

The tissue is not always easy to identify either visually or by palpation - while an experienced surgeon certainly helps (and an unexperienced surgeon is very unlikely to be doing a OSS) it cannot be guaranteed without histopathology