Munster Team Talk Thread - Beirne After Reading

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119588895#Comment_119588895

Well thats false about Cork. Totally and utterly false. What evidence is there to back that up?

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119588921#Comment_119588921

Cork has a population of about 220,000, there is no bigger population centre in the province, therefore provincial capital is the term I used... As for the historically bigger crowds I'm not entirely sure how to prove it but why do you think Limerick has the bigger stadium?

timothydec77

He is right and wrong.

While Cork had no great culture of attendance at club games. I attended club games in late 90s. 3 or 400 would go to a Dolphin game.

Rugby for most people was watching the six nations. Going to a Club game was something most people wouldn't think about doing.

In the late 90s we were on the tail end of the golden age of Irish Soccer.

It had a participation culture. Equal to that of the whole of Connacht today.

@Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119588668#Comment_119588668

Apologies, I worded that wrong. I wouldn't say its reliant on the races being in Limerick but all I'm saying is it definitely helps. I think regardless of who Munster would play on December 26th, having the races on that day would add to the overall attendance.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119588895#Comment_119588895

Having visited both, I would much prefer if they didn't exist :)

As @Lost Ormond stated, where is your evidence to back up "there was no appetite for rugby in Cork"?

Out of 107 renewals of the Munster Schools Senior Cup, Cork have provided more than half the winners and have won a minimum of 4 winners every decade.

In terms of the Munster Senior Cup, in 132 renewals, Cork teams have won 57.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119588971#Comment_119588971

What i said was false was that there is no appetite for rugby in Cork. Not anything else.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119589002#Comment_119589002

This is the Munster schools senior cup that Cork contribute 22 teams to, while Limerick contributes 14? That's not fantastic going considering Cork has over 2.5 times the population of Limerick is it?

I remember in my youth some of my Cork friends would talk about going to a "rugby school." It wasn't until I was much older did I realise this was because some schools didn't play rugby in Cork

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119589127#Comment_119589127

where are you getting these numbers from? 14, 22 etc

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119588996#Comment_119588996

In what way am I wrong? You're agreeing with me

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119589144#Comment_119589144

The munster rugby website

https://www.munsterrugby.ie/domestic/rugby/schools-rugby/affiliated-schools/

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119589163#Comment_119589163

They are affiliated schools but not all necessarily play each year and you have to look at the various levels each school plays at as well. most of those schools dont play any form of regular rugby. they will compete in a cup or a few blitzes and thats it.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119589191#Comment_119589191

Such as which ones?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119589163#Comment_119589163

Most of which would not play in the Schools Senior Cup. My past school is listed as an affiliate school and would have only ever competed in a competition like the O'Brien Cup.

The 10 teams listed in this years Schools Senior Cup are: PBC, Bandon, Munster CSP, Ardscoil Ris, Rockwell, Munchins, Castletroy, Glenstal, Crescent and CBC, most of which would been seen as traditional rugby schools.

Using your argument, 5 of the teams listed above are from Limerick, why haven't Limerick teams won more than half?

I'm still yet to hear evidence to back up "there was no appetite for rugby in Cork"?

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119589199#Comment_119589199

Loads of them not just in the cities. The Limerick Gaelcholaiste, John the Baptist CS. may play occasional friendlies but many dont compete in the schools cups be it the O Brien Cup/Giles Shield or O Gorman Cup etc

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119589215#Comment_119589215

I'm reading 5 Limerick, 3 Cork and one from Tipperary, so where's the cork appetite? I recall 2006 and 2008 there was big screens erected in Limerick to watch the European Finals... Were there any in Cork or was there no appetite?

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119589281#Comment_119589281

They play clubs rugby and dont focus on schools in rest of the city. ridiculous to claim no appetite. Look at the clubs competitions. the Munster u18/16 cup, plate, bowl competitions and number of cork clubs in latter stages of those competitons

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119589281#Comment_119589281

Surely if there was no appetite they wouldn't have won more than half of the Senior Cups available to a smaller number of schools or have won a consistent amount of them decade by decade?

You also have to remember Cork had plenty of success in the 80's, 90's and 00's in both GAA codes, Limerick has had success in hurling in the past 5 years or so and that has showed in the past couple of years Academy intakes. This year being the outlier with 4 out 6 being from Limerick. Year 2 of the Academy has 1 from 6 from Limerick and Year 3 has 1 from Limerick and 1 from Cork.

There may have been less of an appetite I agree but to say there was no appetite is ridiculous. Like everything, there is peaks and troughs.

aloooof

Another point worth mentioning is that I don't think you can gauge an "appetite for rugby" from just schools either, especially in the context of where Munster built their stadium (which is where this started).

I'm sure in Cork, like in Limerick, there are plenty of people who didn't attend rugby-playing schools, or aren't affiliated with a club who are big Munster fans. (In fact, isn't that why the MRSC was first setup?)

I can't say I've ever thought there was no appetite for rugby in Cork.

Cookiemunster

Lets be honest, it came from a poster who has a long history of making some very odd claims. That's not even the only odd claim they've made in the last 24 hours.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119589665#Comment_119589665

It is worth mentioning that there are very few non-rugby playing schools in Limerick. The success of the cork schools in the competition could be down to their smaller number of schools participating and therefore less dilution of skill, helped by their larger general population

What other metric should we judge the appetite on? Was there big screens in Cork in 06 or 08 for example? If there's a Soccer game on at the same time as a rugby game which one takes precedence in a pub setting?

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119589822#Comment_119589822

I'd say you find it hard to make friends? Constantly trying to belittle people for having opinions will do that

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119589905#Comment_119589905

To say definitively there is no appetite is silly. If there are people actively playing a sport, there is an appetite. If there was no appetite, there would be no one playing said sport.

I've already stated there may have been less of an appetite at at given point in time but to say there was none is stupid. Same as there being times when there wasn't as much of an appetite for rugby in Limerick as there once was.

You've referenced a big screen in Limerick vs. none in Cork on two occasions now. Why not contact Cork City Council and ask them why there was no screen? It would be up to each local authority to facilitate.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119589665#Comment_119589665

I completely agree that you cannot gauge an appetite for rugby solely on the schools game. I'm from a town that there's no rugby club within 20km so would have no affiliation to any.

I was just using the schools as an example, surely if there was no appetite for rugby in a certain region, they wouldn't be consistently producing teams that win the competition that is the pinnacle for the age grade.

Using the club game as another example, Cork teams (Con) have won 20% of all AIL's, I know Limerick teams have won a combined 13 out of 30 but there was no one claiming there is no appetite for rugby in Limerick.

Anyways, it looks like I'm mostly speaking to people who can see there was never a stage there was no appetite for rugby in a region.

It's true what they say, common sense is anything but common

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119590006#Comment_119590006

Ok I see some people took the words "no appetite" to be literal when what I should have said was "less of an appetite"

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119590069#Comment_119590069

There's a big difference in the two. I'd much rather have a little bit of cash in my pocket than absolutely no cash in my pocket.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119590111#Comment_119590111

That's a good outlook to have regarding cash.

I meant "no appetite" in the sporting term. Like if I call a referee "completely useless" I don't mean that he/she is unable to blow a whistle or tie their shoelaces, just that they are quite bad at their job. Or if I say a stadium is half-full/empty it's not because I went counting the faces individually, just that there weren't many people there!

lawrencesummers

The only accurate conclusion to be made from the last 8/10 pages is that the sooner the actual rugby starts the better.

What a load of twaddle.

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119588068#Comment_119588068

if thomond becomes 'toyota park' or whatever then the situation becomes different. for now, its thomond park so i dont think a leinster game in PuC should be out of the question every second/third season

i dont get what you mean about the pool games, all of them are in thomond?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119587864#Comment_119587864

as others have said, id imagine its also pretty unique that munster are playing in the city that isnt the largest in the area that the team serves. if decisions are based purely on finances then they should just shut down musgrave park so and have all the games in thomond? makes sense from a financial perspective since its a bigger stadium?

thankfully, those in charge seem to look at things from both a business and sporting perspective. purely financial reasoning is obviously very important of course, but they seem to understand that ignoring the largest population base would be self-detrimental (much as id still like to see a more equal split of games)

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119590243#Comment_119590243

i think theres been mostly decent discussion/debate with a sprinkling of twaddle every so often to be honest

lawrencesummers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119590533#Comment_119590533

yea sure, the rehashing of decades old debates is interesting alright.

Bring on the rugby.

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119590797#Comment_119590797

but thats because recent developments have brought the questions to light again? to be honest, until there is a better split of games etc, between cork and limerick the debate will be ongoing. well, that is unless somehow the population of limerick grows larger than cork in the near future, dont really see that happening though

lawrencesummers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119590988#Comment_119590988

Only 7 more sleeps

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119590988#Comment_119590988

Is the cork/limerick debate that big in cork? It's almost unheard of in limerick

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119591900#Comment_119591900

thats cause limerick have the majority of the games (all the good ones anyway), the training base etc,.

cork has a few lower-profile games and the offices, not really great engagement with the teams largest population debate.

i know UCC have been very annoyed that everything has been moved to limerick in terms of training. havent been involved with them for a few years now but the thinking a few years ago was that they would miss out badly on young players as anyone in the academy would almost definitely go to UL. hasnt exactly turned out like that i suppose.

also, for those that were asking why didnt UCC make a better case for a proposed base to be located there, its my understanding that the sports executive wanted to use the Farm grounds in curraheen for this (a regular training area for munster previously) but the college quashed this as they wanted to sell the site (to the expanding business park as far as i know, something which i think has recently happened recently)

i dont think its a debate really in cork, i think most of the rugby community want more interaction with the team seeing as it is the 'capital' of the province. nobody is expecting all to have all/ a majority of games in cork, but a more even split of URC games and a higher profile home game (ulster perhaps) each season in musgrave wouldnt go amiss. nor would the idea of playing a knockout euro game in PuC either, but hopefully at least that could be on the table if the SA game goes well

lawrencesummers

Of all the Cork based munster fans i know, who regularly attend games ive never once heard a gripe about any of it.

The SA game is a great thing for Cork fans, but most understand the economics of stadium size and revenue.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119590533#Comment_119590533

i dont get what you mean about the pool games, all of them are in thomond?

With the exception of Covid years Musgrave Park has been hosting pool games since the very start of the Celtic League. Every other Irish province (bar Leinster hosting Munster in the Aviva) host all their pool games in the same stadium, we send 3 to Cork so a stadium sponsor has 3 less games to get advertising from and remember we have fewer games to begin with in the current format of the League and the ERC. I just don't see how a stadium sponsor wouldn't tie Munster to holding the marquee games in Thomond Park

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119592002#Comment_119592002

CM went some way towards giving the history on why Munster have ended up with a redeveloped stadium and a training ground in Limerick. Population and appetite for rugby had nothing to do with the decision and until Munster can afford to have two stadia with a capacity >15,000 then I don't see a huge change in how games are divvied out between Cork and Limerick.

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119592164#Comment_119592164

right, pool games means europe though, hence why i was confused

i also said that since thomond park doesnt have a named sponsor currently so thats what im basing my thinking on. if that changes then maybe the options lessen, but thats not the case as of yet so im not dealing with the hypotheticals for now

again, the other provinces arent based outside their largest population centre so the comparisons arent too accurate

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119592212#Comment_119592212

except that explanation wasnt really how things were from what im aware of. my understanding of limiting the increase to musgrave park was that the planning dept/council (rightly imo) questioned the need to have large/larger stadia in the city for soccer, gaa and rugby, they had wanted a combined larger municipal stadium ideally to be shared between each. obviously this was unlikely due to gaa rules (alot of this was pre-2005) they had wanted the munster fa and munster rugby to develop a shared 15-25,000 capacity stadium, which i think the munster fa quashed (cork city were planning on moving back to bishopstown if i remember correctly).

as already explained, the idea that UCC werent 'bothered to put in an application' is untrue also. the sports exec wanted to develop The Farm but the sale of the land by the college had been on the table even back then so it didnt get anywhere

Akrasia

Whats with the civil war stuff? Musgrave park or whatever it's called now doesn't get the big games because it's too small

Thomond gets the ERC pool games because they're usually sold out. PUC may get some ERC knockout games if the demand is higher than Thomond can fit, and the GAA are open to allowing it.

phog

Is there a doubt about our game v Cardiff now that the UK is in 10 days of mourning.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119592753#Comment_119592753

It was always called Musgrave Park to me, I'll be cold in the ground before I acknowledge the Irish Independent as a title sponsor! Or as the announcer there used to say on a few occasions "independence park" always got the crowd laughing

Anybody from Limerick that I know have a huge soft spot for Musgrave Park and love going, many of us consider it our second home.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119592604#Comment_119592604

So in a nutshell Cork was in disarray in what the various sporting bodied and the LA wanted while Limerick assisted Munster in getting the stadium re-developed, same with the training facilities.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119592971#Comment_119592971

Balls

We should demand a walkover

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119592998#Comment_119592998

I'd sooner get a game under our belt

Akrasia

Best case scenario, game is played as scheduled, 2nd best scenario, walkover, free 5 points, worst case scenario, game is rescheduled and we have to play them in some international window or other awkward time

Munster played a League game a week after Foley died suddenly in 2017. If the Cardiff Blues try to reschedule the match because a 96 year old head of state died more than a week earlier.. Sorry, not acceptable IMO.

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119592753#Comment_119592753

era i dont think civil war is the way to put it, just that people in cork want one or two more games tbh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119592995#Comment_119592995

disarray is a leap. the planning dept/council knew that a shared stadium in a city the size of cork would be better than each sport having their own. i seem to remember PuC getting planning permission on the condition that it be made available to other organisations and not just the gaa - could be incorrect on that though i'll admit. theyre completely right too, no city/large town in ireland has the population to need separate stadia for gaa, rugby and soccer - obviously part of the obstacle there is the gaa but shared stadia should be the way going forward.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119593040#Comment_119593040

There's a difference, in this case the UK are in an official 10 days starting on Friday. I don't know what that means from a sporting pov but if it means all games are off then they'll be no walk over.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119593106#Comment_119593106

To date there still isn't a fully shared stadium in any city in Ireland. There's a few shared between rugby and dog racing, soccer or showjumping but none with the GAA.

Munster couldn't possibly wait for the various associations to get their act together to develop a stadium with a capacity greater than 12k

Personally I hate watching rugby in a stadium with huge spaces around the field like we had to endure while we used Croke Park so I wouldn't be keen in using a GAA grounds on a long-term basis.

Cookiemunster

No sports have to be cancelled, but the expectation is nothing will be played this weekend.

I'd be surprised if they continue to postpone for the full 10 days though.

The funeral is supposed to be in 10 days time which would be Sunday week, so nothing will be played over there that day.

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119593200#Comment_119593200

unless there is a global calendar and a move to summer rugby then it is how we should be proceeding in this country, having multiple medium-sized stadia in large towns/cities is ridiculous when our population is structured the way it is, especially when the inter-county gaa season doesnt have too much overlap with rugby. maybe there might be a bit of a bottleneck with soccer as the LoI is in the summer too but im sure it could be worked out. most likely wont happen anyway unless the gaa join the 21st century.

i dont know about the not waiting part too tbh. maybe if they had waited a bit longer for a better solution they wouldnt still be paying off stadium debt, or at least to the same extent

Red Silurian

Tomorrow will tell a lot, I see the preseason friendly between Glasgow and Ulster has been cancelled, as have the horse racing, the PGA tour and the rugby league games that are happening in England over the weekend

The premiership is due to start tomorrow and I reckon they'll make their decision based on what the Premier League (Soccer) will do with the Welsh and Scottish URC clubs following that lead

On one hand I can't see the soccer postponing matches, as they've got a very busy season already with the World Cup in December.

So we might be ok

lawrencesummers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119592753#Comment_119592753

Very hard to see any Champions cup semis in PUC as it currently stands because fixtures will be made for the Munster hurling and football championships before the semi finals are decided, and thats before Munster even play well enough to earn a home semi.