Ford dealer tried to have owner pay for a repair that was warranty

pale rider

How much of this is going on..?

A Ford car under warranty, low mileage, full service history etc, engine light on, took it to a Ford Dealer who said before any warranty claim the head had to be removed to investigate at a cost to me of €600+ to investigate, Ford would not cover this, I was locked in, go ahead says I but can you get a camera down there before you spend my money removing the head ? ( which you can ), I was told we're not going that way.

Days later I was told there was no chance of warranty as ' a foreign object in the engine took a chunk off a valve ', Bill to me to fix now €1450+.

I called in the next morning armed with research, I was shown the car and spoken to like I was an idiot, that stopped when I started taking pictures of the damaged valve. The rest of the engine was perfect, I took more pictures of the engine and Pistons, I then said there would be an engineer calling to verify their diagnosis as to me this was a burnt valve and nothing to do with the driver, I told them not to touch the car or move any parts as I had pictures taken and everything should be in the same position when we returned. I told them the firm were charging me €500 plus vat for the report which they would have to pay if there were issues following the independent inspection.

3 hours passed, they phoned me and said Ford had refused the warranty claim that morning but they got a goodwill payment to cover the job in full, happy days ...except I'm not clueless.

I got the car back a week later and then complained direct to Ford who confirmed in writing the day they got the call, this was the day I was in for my own inspection and that it was a warranty claim NOT goodwill as I was told.

The garage should have called Ford a full five days earlier when the engine was stripped.

In my view this was an attempt at deception, I understand this is a criminal offence with up to 5 years jail if convicted, they tried to get me to pay €1500 for a repair that was in fact fully covered under warranty. They did so without going to Ford with the true assessment of the fault, when they had no choice and went to Ford with the true cause of the fault it was honoured immediately by Ford warranty.

There are more fibs but this is the core whopper.

What can I do as I expect this Ford garage and the two individuals I interacted with are taking advantage of people whenever possible.

I have gone to Ford and they are saying its between me and the garage, I invited the dealer principal to call me, that was weeks ago, no call received, this appears systemic in this main dealer, it is a top down issue.

I will be bringing it to one of the consumer champions who appears on tv and print and would encourage everyone in a similar situation to get expert advice, school yourself and get an engineer to confirm what you are being told if you think it is a warranty claim, believe nobody.

I'm determined to get the truth laid bare and would be interested in any constructive feedback, similar experiences or suggestions for next steps, Ford themselves are washing their hands of it at this point.

Damien360

If I am reading this correctly, the garage applied for warranty from Ford, received it and then tried to claim from you also for the same amount ?

I would have thought Ford would not be pleased that a garage is pulling a stroke on them but it is highly unlikely they would highlight this situation to you. That is buisness to distributor issue.

Still not right to try extract more from you. What did they claim was the underlying cause of the part failure ? Why is it wear and tear (reading between the lines) and not warranty failure of part ?

pale rider

No, I don't believe that now although I initially thought they may have been pulling a stroke having Ford pay and also charge me privately, I alerted Ford to that and cannot comment further.

The actual failure was a burnt valve, the service advisor told me ' there was a foreign object in the body of the engine that took a chunk off the valve ', its hard to make this up as it is so weak but that is what he told me, he also said that was the assessment of the Senior Ford Trained Master technician...layering it on.

Whilst the problem was a faulty valve, the cause has not been treated so it will reoccur in the future when out of warranty.

Alkers

Damien360 wrote:

If I am reading this correctly, the garage applied for warranty from Ford, received it and then tried to claim from you also for the same amount ?

I'm reading it that the garage never contacted ford until he asserted himself

Jamemid

What part of the country was this in?

pale rider

Prefer not to be specific as to location at this time, purpose of my post is to ask how much of this is going on, any other experiences people may like to share and thoughts on my next steps.

I am not motivated by anything other than outing this garages practice, most people know little about cars, trust the Dealer and are locked in after the engine is stripped, I want people to know even at a late stage before they agree to anything else to bring in a firm of motor engineers to conduct an independent diagnosis of their diagnosis.

It was my intention to pay to have the car fixed then follow a claim though the small claims Court using my assessors report to ground the claim, they could not let that happen.

A burnt valve is in fairness an easy diagnosis, a fault not caused by the driver, I believe they have become so complacant at these deceptions that they did not expect to be challenged.

I will be leaving an honest Google review which will be damning and honest.

katiek102010

I had this in Ford in uk. My friends son worked for ford head office and gave me contact details for a manager.

Got my car back repaired free of charge. 12 months later at service time again the person who tried to con me was no longer there.

Ford head office in uk took it very seriously.

bucketybuck

The biggest falsehood here is claiming that you need to pay to have the fault investigated, that warranty does not cover taking the head off even if the repair was due to a warrantable item. Sure, if the fault turns out to be caused by driver abuse then the entire cost goes to the customer, but you don't have a situation where the manufacturer accepts there was a manufacturing defect but still doesn't cover the diagnosis.

As for why the dealer did this, I would first have guessed that they were double charging, claiming from you and from warranty. And no, Ford would not be pleased with that. Worth noting that this may indeed have happened, Ford will not necessarily tell you if it did.

Its also possible though that the dealer simply thought it easier to get paid retail than from warranty. And they would be right, Ford are a pain in the ass to get paid through warranty, they would happily stiff that dealer and reject a genuine claim for spurious reasons. Its not right but it also means a dealer could decide they would rather try to invoice the customer than get nothing from Ford.

Ford know this, thats why they aren't going to get too involved here, they would be far happier if dealers didn't claim from warranty as well.

As for what you can do about it, well, good luck. You had the repair done FOC so you have no reason to sue for damages, and an accusation of fraud will go exactly nowhere. All you have is the court of public opinion and dealers don't give two farts about the Joe Duffy threats, they hear them all the time.

Even if it had been a foreign body in the engine, how can the garage possibly try to blame the owner for this? I mean you didn't drive without an air filter, right. If the filter was intact the foreign body would have needed to originate from somewhere between the air filter and that cylinder which makes it a manufacturing problem.

I'd say the real reason they tried to pull a fast one is the rates Ford pays for a large warranty work. The garage probably have to work at below their normal rate for warranty work.

Blanchy90

Garages get paid less for warranty work than they would if they charged the customer, this could be why they wanted you to pay

pale rider

[QUOTE=bucketybuck

' Its also possible though that the dealer simply thought it easier to get paid retail than from warranty. And they would be right '.

Of course you are correct, but it is not for any Dealer to have the right to have these thoughts when it is the innocent customer that pays the piper.

If a fault is warranty then it is warranty, pure and simple, what the Dealer wants or needs to show a profit is not pertinent, it is the lack of honesty and integrity with staff happy to participate.

When challenged with a motor engineers visit they went to Ford Ireland who approved the repair in hours, cannot be better than that really.

The approach of Ford UK is interesting, Ford Ireland are not interested despite their name being over the door in large letters.

bucketybuck

pale rider wrote: »

QUOTE=bucketybuck

' Its also possible though that the dealer simply thought it easier to get paid retail than from warranty. And they would be right '.

Of course you are correct, but it is not for any Dealer to have the right to have these thoughts when it is the innocent customer that pays the piper.

Of course it is not right, it is hugely dishonest and unethical.

To answer another question, I would consider it rare that this happens, I am a long time in this industry at dealer level and when it comes to dealers ripping off customers it is far less common than people think. Frankly service staff have enough on their plates without getting into these sorts of things.

But it can happen and does happen, and a case like this would be a sure sign of a very corrupt dealership.

If a fault is warranty then it is warranty, pure and simple, what the Dealer wants or needs to show a profit is not pertinent

In a perfect world perhaps. But the warranty liability lies with the manufacturer, and as an independent dealer their priority is always going to be their own profitability. If a dealer thought they were going to be out of pocket then they are going to react. They shouldn't react in this fashion, but thinking that their profitability is not pertinent is just unrealistic.

When challenged with a motor engineers visit they went to Ford Ireland who approved the repair in hours, cannot be better than that really.

Which is why I suspect they always intended to try for a warranty claim, after they had your money.

Old diesel

Has it not occured to a dealer that yes trying to get customer to pay for warranty work mIght make more profit today.

But then you lose the profit from all the lost sales and servicing work from everyone the customer rants about their experience to.

And the people the customer tells will tell more people.

A customer expects either to get full warranty on work or a PROPER explanation as to why the work isn't covered.

They couldnt give a monkeys what money the dealer gets from Ford for warranty work. That's a matter between the dealer network and Ford to resolve.

Short term profit - long term loss

tvjunki

Very cheeky claiming and charging you.

There was a case a good few years of a faulty c v joint. Ford did not do a recall so waited for cars to come in. This was an earlier ford model.
Went to ford garage in uk repaired under warranty so carried out change. 4months later turning off the motorway here when moved back and wheel collapsed and c v joint snapped. Replaced again. 4 months AGAIN cv joint started same problem so brought back to garage. The garage wanted me to pay for it. I paid to tow it to them. Fort my case and threatened to call ford in Dagenham..they backed down and repaired the car.
The garage did not want to claim as it was bad installation and it would highlight the garage with repair on the same car.
Definately report. I think we should all check if they are claiming for the same work and being paid for the same job done.
Pity they are franchise here and not directly owned as far as I know.

pale rider

I am not saying they were going to claim payment from Ford and charge me, I did think that, it appeared obvious at one point but as I am unable to confirm and to be fair I cannot say that or suggest that but I did advise Ford Ireland that this was possible.

You do make a good point, when warranty work is denied and you think it should be warranty then you must pay for the repair yourself to get your car back. keep receipts, let some time pass, a few months, , call the manufacturer to ask if they have any information or awareness of your car reg number, that is what I did with Ford, keep everyone honest.

It is worth doing if you have any doubt about a refusal to complete repairs you believe should be warranty.

I was successful because I challenged back strongly and had an engineer on standby to come do a report but if warranty were denied, say paid for by owner and the owner did a check direct with the manufacturer say two/three months later then by Gum they are caught with their pants down.

I like it.

tvjunki

Must have read it wrong but it looked that way. You just never know what a garage will do. The above was my experience with a certain garage...would never use them again.

Forgot to say when you get work carried out under warranty you usually have 6months warranty on the new work carried out. So check where you are and see if they can do a quick check inspection to make sure everything is ok before it runs out.

bucketybuck

tvjunki wrote: »

Forgot to say when you get work carried out under warranty you usually have 6months warranty on the new work carried out.

That is not true at all, especially not for manufacturers warranty.

As a rule repairs carried out under warranty do not extend the warranty period.

Maybe some random garage made that offer once, but its certainly not a requirement or obligation.

pale rider

The car is under manufacturer warranty until late 2020, Ford confirmed the work done is covered until expiry of manufacturer warranty.

I won't have it that long, no faith in it when the cause has not been treated.

No more Fords in our house or our extended families except for my trusty Mk 1 Escort which is a keeper.

To repeat the suggestion to contact manufacturer a few months after warranty repairs are denied by the Dealer to ascertain if the dealer made a warranty claim on your car and also had you pay, I think that is worthwhile for those that find themselves cornered by the Dealer BUT get an engineers report before agreeing to pay for the repair from your pocket.

tvjunki

bucketybuck wrote: »

That is not true at all, especially not for manufacturers warranty.

As a rule repairs carried out under warranty do not extend the warranty period.

Maybe some random garage made that offer once, but its certainly not a requirement or obligation.

On the paperwork in both uk and Irish garage when I went to sign the car back to me there was a note stating there was a warranty for the new parts installed. I did question it to make sure. May not be everywhere.

Mk1 estate must look lovely.
Was going to change to the new mondeo but reviews are not great at the minute. I have always bought fords.

Pale rider keep them on their toes. Best of luck with the car and garage.

bucketybuck

pale rider wrote: »

To repeat the suggestion to contact manufacturer a few months after warranty repairs are denied by the Dealer to ascertain if the dealer made a warranty claim on your car and also had you pay, I think that is worthwhile for those that find themselves cornered by the Dealer BUT get an engineers report before agreeing to pay for the repair from your pocket.

I don't really see the point in doing that, but if somebody was going to its worth pointing out that you don't need to contact the manufacturer directly. Most dealers for many manufacturers can see a vehicles warranty history themselves, you could just ring a different dealer and ask the service advisor if he minded having a quick look for you.

10fathoms

After the last warranty work I had done by a Ford garage they left some of the oily parts that had been replaced on my back seat. This was on a 10 month old car.

So I'm really not surprised at all by your story. And I've heard worse from people who deal with them on a daily basis!

Midnight_EG

tvjunki wrote: »

On the paperwork in both uk and Irish garage when I went to sign the car back to me there was a note stating there was a warranty for the new parts installed. I did question it to make sure. May not be everywhere.

Parts warranty is very different to a manufacturers warranty

pale rider

any Further thoughts on this ?,

martinr5232

pale rider wrote:

any Further thoughts on this ?,

Out of curiosity is the car a 1.25 fiesta ??

pale rider

martinr5232 wrote: »

Out of curiosity is the car a 1.25 fiesta ??

Yes it is.

Rows Grower

The plot thickens.................

martinr5232

pale rider wrote:

Yes it is.

Very common for those to burn valves cylinder 3 if i remember rightly.

pale rider

martinr5232 wrote: »

Very common for those to burn valves cylinder 3 if i remember rightly.

Yes, cylinder 3, interesting that you got this with very little specifics yet the Ford workshop or the service advisor came up with the ‘ foreign object in the engine ‘ after stripping the engine at my cost ....and their fake diagnosis so that I would cough up.

Beware of All Dealers and I am sorry I cannot name and shame as they do deserve that.

martinr5232

pale rider wrote:

Yes, cylinder 3, interesting that you got this with very little specifics yet the Ford workshop or the service advisor came up with the ‘ foreign object in the engine ‘ after stripping the engine at my cost ....and their fake diagnosis so that I would cough up.

I used to work on fords for years as i said its not uncommon.

pale rider

I spoke with a local mechanic today that told me the same garage are in his words spearheading the rip off of customers, he had a customer that had an nct pre test done and was quoted €2500 to repair, was told it would fail, the owner went to this guy who advised leaving it run through the nct and it passed.

Can't stress enough the importance of a second opinion rather than relying on trust especially with this Ford main dealer.

colm_mcm

So you’re warning us off this dealer but not going to mention who it is

pale rider

colm_mcm wrote: »

So you’re warning us off this dealer but not going to mention who it is

Correct.

dudara

Please don’t name the dealer

dudara

OldMrBrennan83

colm_mcm wrote: »

So you’re warning us off this dealer but not going to mention who it is

It's better for everyone that they rip off as many people as they can, God love them.

colm_mcm

pale rider wrote: »

Correct.

Ok, I’ll be sure to avoid all dealerships just to be sure. Thanks.

Wailin

dudara wrote: »

Please don’t name the dealer

dudara

Why? How can they be allowed get away with this? The more that people are aware the less business and reputation this place will get putting a halt to illegal practices

CJhaughey

You don't have to name them specifically.
But you can use many methods to allude to something.....

dudara

Wailin wrote: »

Why? How can they be allowed get away with this? The more that people are aware the less business and reputation this place will get putting a halt to illegal practices

Boards has a policy of removing all comments of this nature which can be considered defamatory and would leave Boards open to legal action.

What we have here are reports from one poster, who is leveling a serious accusation against a dealer. I believe the OP is sincere, but it is not for Boards to be the forum for the dealer to be named. This includes any sideways comments that could be used to identify the dealer.

I will not discuss this further, any further discussions on this can be undertaken elsewhere.

dudara

pale rider

Wailin wrote: »

Why? How can they be allowed get away with this? The more that people are aware the less business and reputation this place will get putting a halt to illegal practices

It is a matter of litigation, they cannot be named so let’s get over it, if only we had a website that recorded the highs and lows but we don’t.

If this post serves to caution people to not trust what any main dealer service department tells them and to know they can get an independent assessors report done then this exercise has been successful.

This story happens to be Ford.

The reality is there is no recourse, Ford Ireland had no interest despite their name over the door, I expect other manufacturers may be similar.

CJhaughey

pale rider wrote: »

It is a matter of litigation, they cannot be named so let’s get over it, if only we had a website that recorded the highs and lows but we don’t, we do have google reviews.

If this post serves to caution people to not trust what any main dealer service department tells them and to know they can get an independent assessors report done then this exercise has been successful.

This story happens to be Ford.

The reality is there is no recourse, Ford Ireland had no interest despite their name over the door, I expect other manufacturers may be similar.

Its a waste of time reading this thread, tarring all dealers with the same brush is madness.

One bad dealer doesn't mean they all are bad.
:rolleyes:

Toyotafanboi

pale rider wrote: »

If this post serves to caution people to not trust what any main dealer service department tells them ... then this exercise has been successful.

That's a broad old statement.

Should we trust all independent workshops so, or what?

Gonad

dudara wrote: »

Boards has a policy of removing all comments of this nature which can be considered defamatory and would leave Boards open to legal action.

What we have here are reports from one poster, who is leveling a serious accusation against a dealer. I believe the OP is sincere, but it is not for Boards to be the forum for the dealer to be named. This included any sideways comments that could be used to identify the dealer.

I will not discuss this further, any further discussions on this can be undertaken elsewhere.

dudara

If somebody was to start a thread naming the dealer


For example

Ford dealer XYZ (anyone any dealings with them)

Can they then mention it ?

TCM

We done pale rider for you persistance.

pale rider

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

That's a broad old statement.

Should we trust all independent workshops so, or what?

I can just speak of my own experience with this service advisor/workshop at a main dealer, with the car under warranty.

I use an independent garage for all outside warranty repairs, the same one for more than 20 years so your point is somewhat valid however trust is well established.

I was a stranger at this dealer and perhaps that’s an additional twist I had not considered.

Indies are not used for warranty work, it has to be the main dealer that assess the vehicle and then they refer to the manufacturer so a major difference there.

Car Dealer lies to customer- Shock Horror ensues- is that the essence of this thread?

I was sold a 2nd hand car with a dodgy catalytic converter by a "reputable" dealer some years ago- he obviously didn't do his homework before putting it on the forecourt and the car spat out a nice little warning to me within days- I consulted with an indie and got the lowdown before i went back- service manager wanted me to lie to his dealership head office if they ever phoned me just to ensure it was covered by their guarantee scheme instead of having to take the hit locally- they didn't, but I wouldn't anyway.

2nd opinion always when it comes to repairs under guarantee is what i learned from that experience, no matter how "reputable" the dealer is- go with your proof and screw them before they screw you.

Toyotafanboi

pale rider wrote: »

I can just speak of my own experience with this service advisor/workshop at a main dealer, with the car under warranty.

I use an independent garage for all outside warranty repairs, the same one for more than 20 years so your point is somewhat valid however trust is well established.

I was a stranger at this dealer and perhaps that’s an additional twist I had not considered.

Indies are not used for warranty work, it has to be the main dealer that assess the vehicle and then they refer to the manufacturer so a major difference there.

Some people have that same level of trust with their main dealer. I think it's unfair in your frustration to suggest that all main dealers should be second guessed.

For every dodgy main dealer you can be sure there's a dodgy independent. You see the opposite all the time, people getting no satisfaction from their independent dealers warranty only to bring the car to a main dealer to find out the car is faacked.

It's very easy for one garage to put another down.

While I believe everything you've posted, it's a pretty unbelievable situation you find yourself in tbh, I would have thought more of Ford, as a brand.

They've been acting the maggot with their warranties the last few years though, so I wonder did you come a cropper of a warranty company in the background that Ford farm this stuff out to. They are often much less flexible than the manufacturer themselves, but that's the beauty of them to the manufacturer, there's no payout, just a "computer says no".

pale rider

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

Some people have that same level of trust with their main dealer. I think it's unfair in your frustration to suggest that all main dealers should be second guessed.

For every dodgy main dealer you can be sure there's a dodgy independent. You see the opposite all the time, people getting no satisfaction from their independent dealers warranty only to bring the car to a main dealer to find out the car is faacked.

It's very easy for one garage to put another down.

While I believe everything you've posted, it's a pretty unbelievable situation you find yourself in tbh, I would have thought more of Ford, as a brand.

They've been acting the maggot with their warranties the last few years though, so I wonder did you come a cropper of a warranty company in the background that Ford farm this stuff out to. They are often much less flexible than the manufacturer themselves, but that's the beauty of them to the manufacturer, there's no payout, just a "computer says no".

Ford Ireland approved the warranty claim in full on the same morning they were contacted by the Dealer, I have zero complaints there.

Earlier that same morning when I called I said I would be having an assessor call as to me this was a burnt valve and now was the time they should reconsider their diagnosis.

They then went to Ford for the first time, Ford confirmed the date to me in writing.

Dealer told me prior to this that Ford had declined warranty.

biko

Gonad wrote: »

If somebody was to start a thread naming the dealer
For example
Ford dealer XYZ (anyone any dealings with them)
Can they then mention it ?

It's a case by case, we will leave it for another thread/day.