"Upskirting" made illeagle in England and Whales

Feisar

Upskirting for those not in the know is taking pics up a persons skirt without their knowledge or consent.

On what sort of planet (well this one I suppose) did this crap become so prolific they had to make a law against it?

Some creeps out there.

SeaFields

Feisar wrote: »

Some creeps out there.

Especially in the oceans.

Keyzer

Feisar wrote: »

"Upskirting" made illeagle in England and Whales

That's one sick bird...

I didnt even know whales wore dresses.

JohnnyFlash

That’s upskirting, frottage, and clothes line robbing all made illegal. Only saddle sniffing left for the ‘real world’ pervert.

Guy:Incognito

Who's upskirting whales? Scuba divers?

Pinch Flat

Save the whales

Hector Savage

I noticed that a lot of those videos are available on free p0rn sites, I noticed them while doing "research" - how is it legal to have these ?
surely it's a form of assault ...

Gravelly

Upskirting" made illeagle in England and Whales

Why only fat English women? What about skinny ones?

Zorya

Feisar wrote: »

On what sort of planet (well this one I suppose) did this crap become so prolific they had to make a law against it?

Monkey gets new tools, monkey needs new rules.

antodeco

Hang on. So by people taking photos up girls skirts, have made en eagle ill? I'm trying to figure out the link. Did the whale eat the eagle or the camera? What was the eagles name?

Satta Massagana

Will someone spare a thought for the Eagles too.

On a side note, its the chinese and the Japs that do the most upskirt videos. Those freaks are the most daring perverts

Hector Savage

Hector Savage wrote: »

I noticed that a lot of those videos are available on free p0rn sites, I noticed them while doing "research" - how is it legal to have these ?
surely it's a form of assault ...

Seriously? I always wonder about this. Not to be too graphic but I don't think I'm alone in saying that genitals aren't even attractive looking. But obviously the main point here is that of course it's a form of assault, and it absolutely deserves to be illegal.

Feisar

Doh, bloody spelling.

Guy:Incognito

Hector Savage wrote: »

I noticed that a lot of those videos are available on free p0rn sites, I noticed them while doing "research" - how is it legal to have these ?
surely it's a form of assault ...

It's not illegal to pretend to be upskirting without permission.

Toobz

Ill eagle upskirts whales in England?

Hector Savage

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

It's not illegal to pretend to be upskirting without permission.

ah thats how they get away with it ..

BeerWolf

Much to the delight of every Scotsman surely;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2bvmjZqCKA

YFlyer

Pinch Flat wrote: »

Save the whales

Free Willy.

I was in a bar the other night and overheard three hefty women talking. Their accent appeared to be Scottish, so I approached them asked "are you three ladies from Scotland"?

one of them angrily screeched "Wales!!!".

So I apologised and said "Sorry, are you three Whales from Scotland"?

That's the last thing I remember

jester77

So whales tails photos are still ok

razorblunt

Spare a thought for the midget photographers who are now out of work having previously had gainful employment from the British Red Tops for these kinds of shots. They'll have to resort to Snow White pantos at Xmas, roles TBC. They won't be Happy.

seamus

One would expect that this already falls foul of the law, something along the lines of invasion of privacy or some obscure 19th century statute about "perverse acts".

According to the DRCC this morning though, this kind of violation is really hard to prosecute. I'm not sure about a law specifically for upskirting though. Seems unnecessarily specific.

Maybe something that criminalises the taking or distribution of photographs that could be considered sensitive, sexual or explicit, without the express consent of the subject(s) involved. This would have the added bonus of making it a criminal offence to take sneaky pictures of sexy people across the bar or to send on nudes that someone has sent to you.

seamus

seamus wrote: »

According to the DRCC this morning though, this kind of violation is really hard to prosecute. I'm not sure about a law specifically for upskirting though. Seems unnecessarily specific.

what exactly is the problem with a really specific law? Bewildering comment.

It's not a binary choice between this and further legislation, criminalising the forwarding of sensitive messages that were intended to be private. Politicians can probably chew gum and walk straight.

ohnonotgmail

razorblunt wrote: »

Spare a thought for the midget photographers who are now out of work having previously had gainful employment from the British Red Tops for these kinds of shots. They'll have to resort to Snow White pantos at Xmas, roles TBC. They won't be Happy.

One of them has to be.

Tabnabs

seamus

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

what exactly is the problem with a really specific law? Bewildering comment.

"Hard cases make bad laws".

In general the idea is that by having a law to target really narrow instances, you introduce needless loopholes or make the law really ineffective.

For example, you introduce an anti-upskirting law. But what if this only applies to upskirting? If some pervert cuts a hole in in a portacabin toilet to take pictures, this law can't be used to prosecute him.
What if someone has fallen asleep on a beach and their skirt has blown up around their waist? If you make a really specific "upskirting" law, then taking pictures of this individual wouldn't be caught by it.

The aim of any law should be to target the "wrong" rather than the act. What is the part of the act of upskirting that's wrong? The violation of another's privacy for your personal sexual gratification.

Thus, best practice is to craft a law which targets this wrong, not just one specific manifestation of it.

Birneybau

Feisar wrote: »

Doh, bloody spelling.

Numerous times

Grayson

seamus wrote: »

"Hard cases make bad laws".

In general the idea is that by having a law to target really narrow instances, you introduce needless loopholes or make the law really ineffective.

For example, you introduce an anti-upskirting law. But what if this only applies to upskirting? If some pervert cuts a hole in in a portacabin toilet to take pictures, this law can't be used to prosecute him.
What if someone has fallen asleep on a beach and their skirt has blown up around their waist? If you make a really specific "upskirting" law, then taking pictures of this individual wouldn't be caught by it.

The aim of any law should be to target the "wrong" rather than the act. What is the part of the act of upskirting that's wrong? The violation of another's privacy for your personal sexual gratification.

Thus, best practice is to craft a law which targets this wrong, not just one specific manifestation of it.

I see you've spent some time thinking about this.


You are right though. the more specific a law the more it doesn't cover. Then again the broader a law, the more likely it is to be misapplied. It's always a balancing act.

Edgware

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

That’s upskirting, frottage, and clothes line robbing all made illegal. Only saddle sniffing left for the ‘real world’ pervert.

You can still have a but of innocent "fun" on the crowded Luas

Ficheall

I'd like if we could just make taking pictures of other people without their consent illegal altogether.

Feisar

Birneybau wrote: »

Numerous times

Yea I know.

JohnnyFlash

Edgware wrote: »

You can still have a but of innocent "fun" on the crowded Luas

That’s what frotting is.

seamus

seamus wrote: »

"Hard cases make bad laws".

That's just a trite aphorism that has nothing to do with the rest of your post. It usually refers to sad cases that inevitably fall outside of the scope of a piece of legislation, I don't see the relevance.

For example, you introduce an anti-upskirting law. But what if this only applies to upskirting? If some pervert cuts a hole in in a portacabin toilet to take pictures, this law can't be used to prosecute him.

Firstly, I think the objective here - just as in the case of internet bullying legislation - is to publicise the fact that this is explicitly illegal.

Upskirting, as I think you mentioned, is already illegalSo is photographing someone in a toilet cubicle. But in order to combat this specifc (apparently recent) phenomenon, lawmakers are drafting specific legislation for the sake of clarity.

I mentioned legislation around internet bullying. A few years ago, Senator Lorraine Higgins was the subject of vile online harassment and mysoginy, probably because she was one of the few members of the Oireachtas who at that time were active on Twitter. She proposed a piece of legislation to specifically criminalise online harassment, but a number of 'Digital Rights Ireland' types spoke vocally against her, saying that this was already covered under existing law on Harassment. They missed the point entirely. The point was to draw specific attention to this crime, to impose legal clarity to this specific situation. And in fairness, she probably achieved that to some extent, even though that Bill was never enacted.

What if someone has fallen asleep on a beach and their skirt has blown up around their waist? If you make a really specific "upskirting" law, then taking pictures of this individual wouldn't be caught by it.

The aim of any law should be to target the "wrong" rather than the act. What is the part of the act of upskirting that's wrong? The violation of another's privacy for your personal sexual gratification.

Intention (mens rea) is already read into every piece of criminal legislation, unless it has been explicitly deleted from the legislation by its drafters. I haven't read this legislation, but I assume it's sufficiently broad to capture situations like the one you mentioned.

banie01

Can't see the attraction in Upskirting a whale anyway!

Capt'n Midnight

Another example for the DUP about no deviation from the rest of the UK.

Ninthlife

Whats the porpoise of this thread?

Keyzer

Keyzer wrote: »

I didnt even know whales wore dresses.

You never saw My Big Fat Gypsy Wedding?