Hybrid to EV?

The Black Oil

Hello. I read here a lot and find it very informative and am slightly jealous of you with EVs. Youtube is a great source of info too.

Current set up - 100km round trip as a commute, mostly M50 and M1. There's no charging at my office and it would be above my manager's pay grade to pass that sort of request on. Nearest CP would be around the Stillorgan area. Once or twice a year long trips - North Dublin to Donegal (town) and Waterford. Occasional work trip to the midlands or non-work related stuff.
Car - 2012 Yaris Hybrid I imported from the UK in 2016, thanks to help from those of you of this parish. It has 51,000 miles on it now (not kms) and has been running well, no issues and I've kept it serviced. Passed the NCT twice no bother. It does have a decent bumper scrape due to an encounter with a gate...oh, and there's dent on a passenger door which appeared one time when I was not around. It's not obnoxious looking, it's more like something leaned into it rather than say, a pointy ouch dent.

Anyway, I was thinking of moving to an EV, tax is up at the end of June. I'm a bit put off by the thought of selling privately as I've not done that before and thinking of the headache of timewasters, etc. I can only admire those who change vehicles frequently enough. I had a very quick gawk on carzone.ie and there was only one or two of age of my car and I was a little surprised it cost more than what I paid for mine (incl flights, import) when bringing it from the UK, but then stuff tends to in our part of the world. This had me I also took very quick look on Autotrader UK there given a few threads doing the rounds here tonight, I didn't spot too many L30s, would prefer to have it than a L24 just for the range confidence. Or maybe trying to trade-in and pick up this sort of Leaf (link) rather than going back to the UK. Depreciation and bumper damage aside (fixable with a body shop, worth it? not sure about the dent), I'd prefer not to lose too much in any changeover, perhaps this is the wrong way to think about it, though.

n97 mini

Dent can possibly be pulled out for cheap, though I think they need to be done sooner rather than later otherwise there might be a lasting ripple.

Go into Airside and see what they say on a trade-in. I went into them with our Prius and asked about a trade-in on a Leaf they had. They said they'd call me the next day. I'm still waiting, 2.5 years later.

Mike9832

You'll save about €1,500 - 2,000 a year in fuel costs alone, plus free tolls, oil changes etc, it all adds up, your commute is ideal tbh

Below place is supposedly great, will sort everything

Has an 18 Zoe 40kWh for 23k too, no range issues with that, almost brand new

http://www.electricautos.ie/vehicles/renault/zoe/kildare/2210566

No value in Leaf30 anymore, all much too expensive imo

If your used to smaller cars look at the Zoe

Gile_na_gile

Yes, that Zoe looks good, and better value than 18k+ for a 30kwh Leaf if you don't mind the small size. It easily gets over 250km in the summer, so would suit the long trips with 2 stops en route to Donegal, maybe 3. In a few months, there should be better value on the 2018 Leaf. The Ioniq is also great, but holds its value so SH sale prices are not great for the buyer.

unkel

Mike9832 wrote: »

Has an 18 Zoe 40kWh for 23k too, no range issues with that, almost brand new

Agree with most of your post, but I can't really find a fairly spartan small car like a 23k Zoe that's one year old good value compared to a brand new far better spec bigger size Ioniq at 26k

If you consider lower depreciation, the new Ioniq probably has a lower total cost of ownership than the second hand Zoe, which is pretty bonkers

The two things going for the Zoe is the longer range in summer (not in winter though) and the fact that it can charge relatively fast at a lot of existing charge points that will not be hogged up by any EVs (unlike the CCS and CHAdeMO fast chargers that all other EVs use)

Mike9832

unkel wrote: »

Agree with most of your post, but I can't really find a fairly spartan small car like a 23k Zoe that's one year old good value compared to a brand new far better spec bigger size Ioniq at 26k

If you consider lower depreciation, the new Ioniq probably has a lower total cost of ownership than the second hand Zoe, which is pretty bonkers

The two things going for the Zoe is the longer range in summer (not in winter though) and the fact that it can charge relatively fast at a lot of existing charge points that will not be hogged up by any EVs (unlike the CCS and CHAdeMO fast chargers that all other EVs use)

Of course

Much better get an Ioniq if it can be had for 26k

Just put in the Zoe as an option

Would hate for OP to spend nearly 20k on a Leaf 30

unkel

Mike9832 wrote: »

Would hate for OP to spend nearly 20k on a Leaf 30

You and me both dude. Far too much money for a first gen Leaf.

And to be clear I have nothing against the old Leaf. I recommend them nearly on a daily basis to family, friends, colleagues and on here. A 141 Leaf 24kWh for about €9k is a great car for the money.

Gumbo

Mike9832 wrote: »

Of course

Much better get an Ioniq if it can be had for 26k

Just put in the Zoe as an option

Would hate for OP to spend nearly 20k on a Leaf 30

If the OP can get scrappage, he can get a 191 Ioniq for 26.5k in non metallic (white).

I love the Zoe but its just too small for me inside for the kids and work junk.
L40 may drop a bit towards the end of the year f the L62 arrives but we don't know for sure.

Shefwedfan

How much for the hybrid Yaris?

Gile_na_gile

Gile_na_gile wrote: »

2 stops en route to Donegal, maybe 3

It's 230ish km to Donegal from Dublin using M3. If you drove at 100ish km/h you might be able to make it to Donegal without charging on Zoe? On the LEAF 40 which has slightly smaller range I would need one 10 minute charging stop somewhere on the way. It's no clear if Zoe as 22 or 44 kW charger but I reckon one 30 minute stop is all that it take at the worst.

unkel

samih wrote: »

It's 230ish km to Donegal from Dublin using M3.

LOL, it completely depends where you're going in Donegal. From my home in west Dublin to Bundoran would be 190km and take just 2 over hours, no need to charge at all in either Zoe, Ioniq or L40 if you don't drive at the speed limits all the time

Completely different matter if you have to go to some of the further ends of Inishowen. Takes twice as long and you certainly would have to charge as it is 270km

Gile_na_gile

Yeah, I didn't look up the distance, but true, 280km is doable with a short stop. In practice, the road is so windy and full of towns en route, I would be stopping at least once en route for a proper break, so easy to combine this with a good charge to leave driving space at destination.

Yeah, I assumed Donegal town but if you're heading all the way to Malin Head for example definitely need a charging stop. I drove L40 from Leixlip to Lifford without charging last year and there was still some reserve left. Can't remember the exact specifics apart from that there were some very sporty overtakes involved.

The Black Oil

Thanks for the comments. I meant to say I can't afford to go new, or that sort of ball park, Ioniq, etc. Yeah, I've seen Electric Autos mentioned alright.

24kwh Leaf - is that a touch borderline with the commute of 100km, if we've lower temperatures? Or top up before heading home. Zoe would need to battery owned, obviously, probably can't afford one of the newer ones, really. Donegal would be infrequent, there's a CP in Laghey and Donegal town, iirc. Waterford's an easier drive. My mother got a go of a L40 recently as her brother's X-Trail was in for repair and that's what he got on loan. I was a little jealous as I wasn't there to see the Leaf.

Trying to attach a photo of the dent - blemish.

The Black Oil

Rather unexpectedly, a CP has just been installed at work. I don't know what type, it's not open yet. It's put this into my mind again, not sure what I'd go for, though.

unkel

It will be at least 3.6kW AC, probably 7.2kW AC

If you charge at home and you can reliably charge at work then you need a car that has a range of just 50km. A very cheap solution would be an early Leaf with a few bars missing. But if I were you and you want to spend the minimum amount of money up front but still have a very usable EV, I would pick up a newer generation Leaf (from 2014) from about €9k, even with the base spec 3.3kW on board charger, your car will be fully charged at the end of your working day.

A nicer car all around with a similar range would be a BMW i3, but that would be from at least €13-€14k also for a 2014. Next good value proposition would be a brand new Ioniq for €26k, nearly double that range but a lot more money up front.

https://www.carzone.ie/used-cars/bmw/i3/used-2013-131-bmw-i3-range-extender-donegal-fpa-201902175033353

Check on Revenue the VRT but the add says 300 Euro's.

Rex is a generator that allows you to continue if the battery runs low but the idea is to turn it on as soon as it allows at 75% and keep it on to keep as much battery as possible for slower roads and in town driving, the i3 Rex is always 100% driven by the electric motor and the Generator only acts as a generator keeping the battery topped up.

It eliminates cold battery charging which is a lot slower than charging a warm battery + it eliminates getting caught in a queue at chargers + eliminates broken chargers and it gives you the option to continue without charging if you want, it gives you lots of options a battery only car can not.

For the money it's a cracking car, fast and a lot of fun to drive and best of all the Rex eliminates this.

KCross

The Black Oil wrote: »

Rather unexpectedly, a CP has just been installed at work. I don't know what type, it's not open yet. It's put this into my mind again, not sure what I'd go for, though.

Two things...

- Are you a one or two car household?

- While the work charge point helps, you dont want to be reliant on that to get home. In 6 months, now that the charge point is there, you could find several other people thinking the same as you and they get EV's too meaning you are "fighting" to get onto the charge point. Or the charge point could be out of service for a week or too for maintenance etc. You need to be able to do your 100km commute without using that charge point. Think of it as a bonus, not something you rely on.

Exactly, never be dependent on work charging or public charging.

I see in my work place now , people plugged in all day to the charge points when they don't need to and people plugging in every day when they need only 1 or two charges a week.

If I were you I would ask for work charging, there are tax incentives against installation. No harm in asking or in my case persistence.

slave1

Work chargers should be ones where staff can park either side (so 4 potential charge spaces, front left, front right, rear left and rear right) and be able to easily disconnect a car currently charging i.e. no locking mechanism at charger end.
Obviously a level of common sense not to disconnect a car on low charge etc.

Jackhammer9

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Exactly, never be dependent on work charging or public charging.

I see in my work place now , people plugged in all day to the charge points when they don't need to and people plugging in every day when they need only 1 or two charges a week.

If I were you I would ask for work charging, there are tax incentives against installation. No harm in asking or in my case persistence.

What's going to happen when there's a big uptake in home charging?

ESB is proposing to switch customers out after a few hours,will that be enough time?

Jackhammer9

Jackhammer9 wrote: »

What's going to happen when there's a big uptake in home charging?

ESB is proposing to switch customers out after a few hours,will that be enough time?

Say again , I don't follow.

KCross

Jackhammer9 wrote: »

What's going to happen when there's a big uptake in home charging?

ESB will make more money. They will be deligthed with themselves.

Jackhammer9 wrote: »

ESB is proposing to switch customers out after a few hours,will that be enough time?

They are not proposing that.

Jackhammer9

KCross wrote: »

ESB will make more money. They will be deligthed with themselves.




They are not proposing that.

Listen to PK again ,that's what he said

They're basically putting nothing into the network to cover uptake in home charging

They'll be charging a premium for these public fast charging banks when they get round to installing them

They're pretty much doing zilch for EV besides sitting back on their lazy asses

n97 mini

Jackhammer9 wrote: »

Listen to PK again ,that's what he said

They're basically putting nothing into the network to cover uptake in home charging

They'll be charging a premium for these public fast charging banks when they get round to installing them

They're pretty much doing zilch for EV besides sitting back on their lazy asses

Most home charging is done at night.

Currently there is about a 2.6 gigawatt difference between demand during the day and night. By my maths that's about 371,000 more EVs charging at night at 7KW to balance demand. I think we've a while to go.

KCross

Jackhammer9 wrote: »

Listen to PK again ,that's what he said

They're basically putting nothing into the network to cover uptake in home charging

They'll be charging a premium for these public fast charging banks when they get round to installing them

They're pretty much doing zilch for EV besides sitting back on their lazy asses

I heard what he said. He didnt say "cut you off". He said "throttle back" so everyone gets fair usage.

Jackhammer9

KCross wrote: »

I heard what he said. He didnt say "cut you off". He said "throttle back" so everyone gets fair usage.

In other words they won't have the capacity for EV

KCross

Jackhammer9 wrote: »

In other words they won't have the capacity for EV

What the CEO was getting it is that they dont want all the EV's starting their charge at the same time. It would causes a massive spike.

The idea is to employ throttling so that you spread the load out across many hours, not all bunched up within the first few hours of night rate. Thats all he was really saying.

The throttling allows them to do that.

Is there enough capacity to charge 2m EV's.... no. We are a long way off from max'ing out the grid though and its not a reason to not adopt EV. I believe they said at some point they could handle 400k EV's without much capital investment. We are at about 10k now!

The Black Oil

I had a gawk at the charging unit earlier. Don't recall the brand. It said 7.4kW max and phase 1(?), 32A, or something like that. Point taken about dependency, access and so forth. As soon I heard about it I was thinking of some of the CP stories from here. I'd hate hogging it myself too just on the basis of etiquette and usage. I haven't seen many EVs here at all - very rarely, really. They have upgraded other infrastructure here now, so there must have been a wider plan.

I hate the thought of trying to sell the Yaris privately and all of the timewaster stuff that goes with that.

Where, then, is the line between trying to find something that's good value and also fit for purpose. Looking at the likes of Electric Autos, for instance. Some battery lease 2015 Zoes and 24kwh Leafs, etc. With the latter, other than mileage, is it technical stuff that's dictating the price?

unkel wrote: »

It will be at least 3.6kW AC, probably 7.2kW AC

If you charge at home and you can reliably charge at work then you need a car that has a range of just 50km. A very cheap solution would be an early Leaf with a few bars missing. But if I were you and you want to spend the minimum amount of money up front but still have a very usable EV, I would pick up a newer generation Leaf (from 2014) from about €9k, even with the base spec 3.3kW on board charger, your car will be fully charged at the end of your working day.

A nicer car all around with a similar range would be a BMW i3, but that would be from at least €13-€14k also for a 2014. Next good value proposition would be a brand new Ioniq for €26k, nearly double that range but a lot more money up front.

I'm a little confused on the timeline of when the Leafs changed. Prior to the 30kwh, were the the changes smaller within the 24kwh end of things? You'd think with all the EV stuff I watch on Youtube I'd know by now. :pac:

The Black Oil

The Black Oil wrote: »

I had a gawk at the charging unit earlier. Don't recall the brand. It said 7.4kW max and phase 1(?), 32A, or something like that. Point taken about dependency, access and so forth. As soon I heard about it I was thinking of some of the CP stories from here. I'd hate hogging it myself too just on the basis of etiquette and usage. I haven't seen many EVs here at all - very rarely, really. They have upgraded other infrastructure here now, so there must have been a wider plan.

I hate the thought of trying to sell the Yaris privately and all of the timewaster stuff that goes with that.

Where, then, is the line between trying to find something that's good value and also fit for purpose. Looking at the likes of Electric Autos, for instance. Some battery lease 2015 Zoes and 24kwh Leafs, etc. With the latter, other than mileage, is it technical stuff that's dictating the price?



I'm a little confused on the timeline of when the Leafs changed. Prior to the 30kwh, were the the changes smaller within the 24kwh end of things? You'd think with all the EV stuff I watch on Youtube I'd know by now. :pac:

Don't be fooled with older Zoe battery leasing, it does not under any circumstances guarantee you a new battery , only a reconditioned or new at Renault's discretion.

If that i3 Rex I linked to checks out ok I'd definitely consider it because it should still give about 90-100 and 110-120 Km Winter/Summer range, even with a slightly degraded battery it will offer by far the most range of any plug in car on the market anywhere on the planet.

Or if you can afford to then buy one form a dealer.

On longer trips do not think that waiting for a charge is fun, it gets very old very fast, when you need the Rex it's always there, when you need the public charging infrastructure you could have a 1-2 hr wait before you get to charge then on top of that you have to wait 30-40 mins to charge yourself.

Yes it will improve but we're a few years away from that, the Rex can still save you a lot of money and a lot of time hanging around at chargers or waiting for a tow truck at broken chargers. Rex saves time when cold batteries take longer to charge too.

unkel

The Black Oil wrote: »

I'm a little confused on the timeline of when the Leafs changed. Prior to the 30kwh, were the the changes smaller within the 24kwh end of things? You'd think with all the EV stuff I watch on Youtube I'd know by now. :pac:

Late 2013. But to be sure if you get a 141, it will have the new battery. And yes afaik, Phil in Electricautos would take your car as a trade in. Ring him, see what he can do for you. He can source cars too (from the UK) so don't be too hung up on what he has in stock at the minute.

Your work charger of 7.4kW / 32A is what almost all new home chargers are too. If there is just going to be one or two at your work, I wouldn't rely on them. That said, maybe your employer would allow you to use your granny cable through the window in case the charger is busy and you really need a charge?

creedp

unkel wrote: »

Late 2013. But to be sure if you get a 141, it will have the new battery. And yes afaik, Phil in Electricautos would take your car as a trade in. Ring him, see what he can do for you. He can source cars too (from the UK) so don't be too hung up on what he has in stock at the minute.

Your work charger of 7.4kW / 32A is what almost all new home chargers are too. If there is just going to be one or two at your work, I wouldn't rely on them. That said, maybe your employer would allow you to use your granny cable through the window in case the charger is busy and you really need a charge?

I'll echo the advice not to be reliant on work chargers. 3 new 7kwh (x2) chargers were installed in my workplace last year and it was all great for about 4 months until 2 chargers went down and nearly 3 months later remain down. This just leaves one working and a Porche PHEV is plugged into one site of this all day every day. So at this point there is one charge point for everybody else. I am reliant on a top everyday during this colder weather and regularly have to head out at lunchtime to plug into an on street ecars charge point for a 20 to 30 min top up. The novelty wears off very quickly......

unkel

Had an unexpected long trip this morning, so car was almost empty. Had time on my hands, and wanted to have some range in case I needed it later. Needed to do a quick shop and my local fast charger (Lucan) showed up as not occupied in the app. Grand I thought. Got there and there was a car plugged in and a car waiting. The owner of the plugged in car was on the phone. No doubt talking to ecars to get the charger started remotely. These efacec chargers are ridiculously unreliable. Maybe they were ok when 2 or 3 cars charged there per day (I rarely had problems with them myself 2 years ago), but this fast charger is occupied nearly 24/7 now - when it is working. It was down for several months last year. The busiest charger in Ireland down for months!

It's a joke that all public fast chargers are so unreliable and even if they work they can only charge one car at a time :rolleyes:

And worse again is that some leaf driver can plug in which disconnects the CCS charge and will start their own charge so if you are away from the car you don't get charged , that is a complete and utter joke !

Op do consider the i3 Rex because even if you get the older 64 Ah battery and even if it's lost some Kwh over the years it will still provide much more EV only range than any other plug in on the market and still have the Rex as a backup which is a blessing until the network greatly improves in a few years.

The Black Oil

What are i3 servicing costs like?

The work CP is not open yet and has already been ICEd by a Hyundai i40.

unkel

See the recent i3 thread for servicing cost of an i3. I think Mad_Lad just paid EUR400 for a service. It's mad money (worse than ICE service), but pegged against fuel savings it ain't all that bad.

That doesn't look good for your work charger. If you are not guaranteed to be able to use it every day, then you shouldn't consider it in your choice of car.

400 Every 2 years regardless of mileage is perfectly fine in my opinion, not mad money at all for a main BMW dealer.

For me that would be 400 Euro's every 2 years and 60,000 Kms + and that's Fine by me. The BEV i3 is cheaper, naturally. No Rex to maintain.

It's also possible that I won't be servicing it in 2 years time too, my PCP will be up by the time the next service is due.

For the convenience of having the Rex it's actually a small premium to pay in fairness, it will take 1 charging queue of 2+ cars to make you realise how good the Rex is and it also eliminates cold battery charging which is not very fast.

One day there's be no need for the Rex, one day, and it will take more than a Kona to get me back to BEV, it will take a decent improvement in the charging infrastructure.

With the Rex there's no more this , just imagine the first car just started charging ? that's a hell of a long time to wait until the 3rd car has finished charging, so is the Rex not worth avoiding this ? yes to me is certainly is and it will get worse before it gets better, others will endure it , I did for 3 years but not any more not until there is a substantial improvement, we're already over 3 years behind !

unkel

I'd rather a BEV i3 and throw a petrol genny and a jerry can in the boot if I thought I might be running out on a long trip

unkel

unkel wrote: »

I'd rather a BEV i3 and throw a petrol genny and a jerry can in the boot if I thought I might be running out on a long trip

Yea the BEV is fine if you don't intend to take it too far too often or are prepared to wait at fast chargers or will have another car to take as was the case when I had the Leaf, the Rex means I don't have to worry about any form of charging, don't have to alter plans, don't have to take another car.

So the BEV only , suits some but not others, I've been there done that and I won't do it again until the Charging network substantially improves , we're already a massive 4 years behind where we were back in 2015.