Arm Vs Body Swing

pakman

I had a lesson with a new coach out in Carton recently that did wonders for how I think about the golf swing and wondered if this was just something I missed that most people knew about.

He told me that I was swinging too much with my arms and not my body. Tried fixing it and now when I swing the club I pretty much just keep the club pointing straight ahead and swing my body which has me suddenly straighter off the tee in general and longer.

Despite killing hours watching tutorial videos online this is only something I ever really heard about in passing but it seems so pivotal. It also addressed a LOT of the things that I was getting told to address in other lessons. Overswing, outside to in swing, not striking down. Obviously not all sorted but much better at least.

Was this just a feeling that the pro spotted for me or is this something everyone consciously does and I just didn't realise its importance before now? It seems so vital to understanding the swing that I thought it would have come up a lot more.

valoren

Picture yourself in an amusement park with one of those 'test your strength' punching bags i.e. you throw a punch at the bag and it gives you a score based on the power generated.

Now, do you stand there bolt upright while you just use the coil of your upper body and dominant shoulder, arm and fist to deliver the blow? Obviously not. You generate the power from the ground up, coming up through your body as you rotate and coil away from the bag, storing the energy in your big muscles (the core, the quads, the glutes, your back) and try to retain as much of that potential energy you've generated in your muscles as possible as you 'snap' back towards the bag, trying to retain it until you get to finally release it and drive it into your punch of the bag. Effectively converting the mechanical/chemical energy created by your muscle/movement and transferring it into the kinetic energy which moves the bag via your hands.

A 'handsy' swing versus a 'body' swing is analagous to the above. It's instinctive when playing to try and create energy from that which we are physically connected to i.e. our hands, to the hitting implement i.e the club. Remember, you hands in particular are incredibly dexterous. Over active fine motor skills in the hands can cause havoc and severe timing issues can arise with the 'handsy' player's club face all over the shop during the swing. You want a body swing as this dexterity of the hands get's inhibited until it is really needed i.e. impact. Think of someone like Ernie Els. A big man, who just turns back and goes through in what appears to be slow, easy swing. He has generated enormous coil and potential energy in the back swing and simply delivers it back into the ball with his club head speed peaking right at impact. Even Justin Thomas, with his slight build, 22 kilos lighter than Els. They both swing with the body and I certainly wouldn't fancy getting punched by either.

With the hands swing you're minimizing the energy potential by not recruiting the brawny muscles mentioned. You're going to generate more speed, energy and distance with a body swing. With a body swing you want to retain the power/energy generated by takeaway/transition and keep the hands passive during the downswing until impact, where you finally deliver the blow, transferring as much energy as physically possible to the ball. The typical swing fault of a handsy swing is casting the club during the downswing. It's a major 'power' leak, think about the punch bag and delivering your 'punch' a few inches in front of the ball. Your punch would be akin to a glancing blow instead of a hit.

So a golf swing is really just a transfer of energy but with alignment, grip and all the fundamentals complicating the core principle of generating power using your big muscles and then finally delivering that power through hands in that frustrating kinetic chain known as the golf swing which when you think about it is like you're throwing a punch at the punching bag at waist height but you have to stand to the side of the bag and not face on.

pakman

valoren wrote: »

Picture yourself in an amusement park with one of those 'test your strength' punching bags i.e. you throw a punch at the bag and it gives you a score based on the power generated.

Now, do you stand there bolt upright while you just use the coil of your upper body and dominant shoulder, arm and fist to deliver the blow? Obviously not. You generate the power from the ground up, coming up through your body as you rotate and coil away from the bag, storing the energy in your big muscles (the core, the quads, the glutes, your back) and try to retain as much of that potential energy you've generated in your muscles as possible as your snap back towards the bag, trying to retain it until you finally drive that potential /chemical energy mixture into kinetic energy when finally delivering the blow to the bag.

A 'handsy' swing versus a body swing is analagous to the above. With a handsy swing you're minimizing the energy potential. You're not invoking you Big muscles to their full potential. You're going to generate more speed, energy and distance with a body swing. With a body swing you want to retain the power/energy generated by takeaway/transition and keep the hands passive during the downswing until impact, where you finally deliver the blow, transferring as much energy as physically possible to the ball.

So a golf swing is really just a transfer of energy but with alignment, grip and all the fundamentals complicating the core principle.

Thats a great explanation. I get the principles alright but it seems strange to me that it's not stressed more but I could have just missed it. That's why I was asking if I just missed something or if it was just a feel I needed to be told specifically because it really pulled a lot of things together for me and nobody ever mentioned it in lessons before now.

the long lad

This is a great video that should help understand the concept also

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EJhKtUuC8k

pakman

the long lad wrote: »

This is a great video that should help understand the concept also

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EJhKtUuC8k

Cheers. If only it were that easy . Good explanation though.

CalamariFritti

I'm no swing expert and my swing is most likely no oil painting. Very few amateur swings are tbh. But I'm having a few lessons on and off this winter and my pro and I are working on that very thing, getting the hands and arms out of the swing and all that.

And from what I've learned so far I have an issue with that video above and many others like it you will find on youtube. Mainly because I watched them too and tried some of that stuff and discussed it with my pro, too.
That thing he does with his hands and arse is giving the wrong idea in my opinion. It suggests deliberate manipulation during the swing. People look at youtube videos like that and end up doing all sorts of contortions, coiling themselves up and then trying to throw hips or legs around while holding their hands and arms back in weird positions and I dont think its going to work. While a 'body swing' is not an instinctive motion it still is a natural motion which happens in sync and in flow.

Like I said I am taking lessons right now and what I'm being told and what I am experiencing too is simply that you will generate much more club head speed with soft hands and soft arms and the motor of the swing being the torso rotation as opposed to hitting at it with your hands and arms. With the latter unfortunately being what we instinctively do.

And it works too. When I do it right the club head speed is off the charts compared to what I usually do. And club and ball seem like on train tracks, the thing just wants to go straight. And you will know you did it right just from the impact sound, it sounds very soft as opposed to that loud clunky thud that a hand hit generates and where you will most likely glance the ball more often than meet it really square on.
But most of the time put a ball down in front of me as opposed to a practice swing and its so bloody hard not to throw your hands at it or let some tension creep into it. It can really be frustrating, sometimes I wonder will I ever learn to do it properly.

pakman

CalamariFritti wrote: »

I'm no swing expert and my swing is most likely no oil painting. Very few amateur swings are tbh. But I'm having a few lessons on and off this winter and my pro and I are working on that very thing, getting the hands and arms out of the swing and all that.

And from what I've learned so far I have an issue with that video above and many others like it you will find on youtube. Mainly because I watched them too and tried some of that stuff and discussed it with my pro, too.
That thing he does with his hands and arse is giving the wrong idea in my opinion. It suggests deliberate manipulation during the swing. People look at youtube videos like that and end up doing all sorts of contortions, coiling themselves up and then trying to throw hips or legs around while holding their hands and arms back in weird positions and I dont think its going to work. While a 'body swing' is not an instinctive motion it still is a natural motion which happens in sync and in flow.

Like I said I am taking lessons right now and what I'm being told and what I am experiencing too is simply that you will generate much more club head speed with soft hands and soft arms and the motor of the swing being the torso rotation as opposed to hitting at it with your hands and arms. With the latter unfortunately being what we instinctively do.

And it works too. When I do it right the club head speed is off the charts compared to what I usually do. And club and ball seem like on train tracks, the thing just wants to go straight. And you will know you did it right just from the impact sound, it sounds very soft as opposed to that loud clunky thud that a hand hit generates and where you will most likely glance the ball more often than meet it really square on.
But most of the time put a ball down in front of me as opposed to a practice swing and its so bloody hard not to throw your hands at it or let some tension creep into it. It can really be frustrating, sometimes I wonder will I ever learn to do it properly.

keeping the hands out in front of me causes me to tense up and while i can do the body swing with my irons with some feel, its much harder with the driver as the weight isn't there to guide me. You are right about direction though. I kind of broke 90 this week for first time and was all down to irons going straighter and the bad drives being less bad than they were. I'll be sticking with it anyway.

CalamariFritti

Ah totally. While I find it quite difficult because I've been stuck in bad habits for so long I do believe it's the way to go. Well my pro keeps telling me anyway.

I was really on about the video posted above. Without any context people might think they are supposed to throw their hips around while arms and bent hands are still behind them. We have a guy like that in our club and he makes your eyes hurt just from watching him 'swing'. Some of those videos can screw you up more than they might help. I think they are only an exaggerated drill, you're not actually supposed to look like that. Bit like what Alex Noren is doing if you ever saw him on telly.

ShivasIrons

I find the comments that you hear about taking the hands out of the swing interesting. How else do you hold on to the club if you're taking the hands out of the swing?

CalamariFritti

Its a phrase being used a lot. You hear it on telly all the time. It means using the hands just to hold on to the club. Passive hands. Resisting the urge to hit at it with your hands. Striking the ball just with the arc of your swing. What practically all pros and few amateurs do.

CalamariFritti

With all the stuff I wrote over the last two days you want to bear in mind that I'm actually sh1t myself.

Played one of the worst rounds ever today, barely broke 100. Was all over the place with what I was trying to do etc and it amounted to nothing. Stupid game anyway.

ShivasIrons

CalamariFritti wrote: »

Its a phrase being used a lot. You hear it on telly all the time. It means using the hands just to hold on to the club. Passive hands. Resisting the urge to hit at it with your hands. Striking the ball just with the arc of your swing. What practically all pros and few amateurs do.

The problem is that passive hands doesn't happen in the swing, try opening the door without using your hands or using a fork without using your hands?


When people are describing excessive hands what they are really describing in excessive body use. A golfer must use their hands when they swing, when they pitch, when they putt. They are our best tool, don't stop using them

CalamariFritti

Thats the thing with golf though. One guy tells you this another guy tells you that.

I was going to post why I'm seeing a pro atm but dont want to hijack the OPs thread more than I already have.

GreeBo

ShivasIrons wrote: »

The problem is that passive hands doesn't happen in the swing, try opening the door without using your hands or using a fork without using your hands?


When people are describing excessive hands what they are really describing in excessive body use. A golfer must use their hands when they swing, when they pitch, when they putt. They are our best tool, don't stop using them

Are you trying to open the door at 120mph though?

An ideal golf swing is a compound pendulum, where momentum is transferred from one area to the next. The image below compares the resulting "clubhead" speed when you have fixed links versus flexible ones. It also demonstrates lag and how its not something that you do, its something that you try not to prevent.



http://www.golfloopy.com/compound-pendulum/

pakman

CalamariFritti wrote: »

Thats the thing with golf though. One guy tells you this another guy tells you that.

I was going to post why I'm seeing a pro atm but dont want to hijack the OPs thread more than I already have.

Go ahead. All very interesting. Feel is so important and for me. one feel during a round can completely transform my game or I could spend all round toying and changing trying to find it and ruin myself.

Went from best round of my life on Thursday to awful on Sunday and thought I was doing the exact same thing. took me till last 5 holes to figure it out and started playing well.

ShivasIrons

GreeBo wrote: »

Are you trying to open the door at 120mph though?

Hand speeds are not the same as club head speeds

GreeBo

ShivasIrons wrote: »

Hand speeds are not the same as club head speeds

Exactly...though I'm not sure what your point is?:o

CalamariFritti

I always thought when people refer to a players 'great hands' they don't actually mean that they do some miraculous stuff with them, I always thought that means they have soft hands that allow the club to work freely.

CalamariFritti

pakman wrote: »

Go ahead. All very interesting. Feel is so important and for me. one feel during a round can completely transform my game or I could spend all round toying and changing trying to find it and ruin myself.

Went from best round of my life on Thursday to awful on Sunday and thought I was doing the exact same thing. took me till last 5 holes to figure it out and started playing well.

I'm the same. I can go from cold to hot and vice versa. I think its mostly because I'm not assured of my method, always thinking I'm not doing it right and keep searching. Obviously thats no way of playing golf, cant expect consistent results with that.

I went from a spell at the end of last year where I played 8 rounds with the same ball - wasnt intentional, they ball held up really well through 2 or 3 rounds and then it became kind of a challenge - to losing 2 balls last Sunday.

Golf is a fickle game and it depends on mindset so much.

Part of that comes from the elusiveness of the golf swing and all the different opinions on it. You ask ten teaching pros and their answers will sound like ten different opinions. Now from what I can see they are not ten different opinions, mostly they are different takes on the same opinion, but as a student of the game/swing its hard to realise that.
On top of that it is so difficult to self observe, what you think you're doing and what you're doing are never the same thing.

GreeBo

CalamariFritti wrote: »

I always thought when people refer to a players 'great hands' they don't actually mean that they do some miraculous stuff with them, I always thought that means they have soft hands that allow the club to work freely.

I think great hands is really only applicable to short game/non-full swing shots where there is more/some manipulation of the club face.

For example cutting up a high lob or a soft pitch.

CalamariFritti

GreeBo wrote: »

I think great hands is really only applicable to short game/non-full swing shots where there is more/some manipulation of the club face.

For example cutting up a high lob or a soft pitch.

But even on those unless I’m really very very far behind a good player - which I probably am - I imagine the more you manipulate the more you set yourself up for problems.

Yes you can open the club up and you can stop yourself from turning over the hands or work with ball position or weight distribution, but after that I don’t know. Anything that gets your hands twitching and you’re just looking for chunks and blades etc. I certainly would be.

No?

GreeBo

CalamariFritti wrote: »

But even on those unless I’m really very very far behind a good player - which I probably am - I imagine the more you manipulate the more you set yourself up for problems.

Yes you can open the club up and you can stop yourself from turning over the hands or work with ball position or weight distribution, but after that I don’t know. Anything that gets your hands twitching and you’re just looking for chunks and blades etc. I certainly would be.

No?

Not if you have good hands!

CalamariFritti

Ah ffs

ShivasIrons

The hands play a vital role in the golf swing and it's not just the grip. Think of all the talk about wrist angles at the moment, Dustin Johnson's bowed left wrist etc.


Fine club head control will come from the hands, hence great hands, educated hands etc. It's not just on short game shots either.


So taking hands out of the golf swing goes along with such useless advice as keep your head down, keep your eye on the ball, keep the left arm straight and of course the great one, slow down your swing.

pakman

ShivasIrons wrote: »

So taking hands out of the golf swing goes along with such useless advice as keep your head down, keep your eye on the ball, keep the left arm straight and of course the great one, slow down your swing.

Jaysus, that's three of my swing thoughts right there.

That 20 handicap might be around longer than I hoped

CalamariFritti

https://www.instagram.com/p/BklkYYygf6A/

Tommy Fleetwood on the above instagram message

I square the club at impact by keeping my body turning. There's very little forearm rotation or flip, where the right hand rolls under the left. I see amateurs do that, and it's very hard to control ball flight if you're too active with your hands.
Instead, keep your hands and arms passive, letting the club follow your body through impact. That means you gotta keep turning. I want my body rotation to stay ahead of my hands and club, as if they are being dragged. Do that, and you can swing down from the inside and square the clubface without forearm rotation. Even after I hit it, my forearms haven't turned much. This type of swing relies a lot less on timing. Even if you're off, your misses won't be as bad.
A drill to get a feel for this is to take a 7-iron and hit shots that go only 100 yards. Do this simply by propelling the club with body rotation. Your arms stay long throughout the swing—like a windmill—but act like they're dead weight. This will help you feel how to square the club without trying to do it with your hands. Big-muscle swings are a lot easier to control.

pakman

CalamariFritti wrote: »

https://www.instagram.com/p/BklkYYygf6A/

Tommy Fleetwood on the above instagram message

Something like this seems correct but wonder what I might be missing with it. Hoping it helps me anyway.

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pakman

video not working so here is url.

"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQIbHK_cCfA&feature=plcp"

spacecoyote

pakman wrote: »

Something like this seems correct but wonder what I might be missing with it. Hoping it helps me anyway.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQIbHK_cCfA

FYP