Shared driveway - right of way

whatawaster

Hi, hope this is the right place to ask this . . .

We live in a semi-detached house and share a driveway with a neighbor on one side. We each have a garage at the end of the driveway. As the driveway goes beyond the rear of each house, it widens as it approaches the garages.

We are thinking about extending our house to the back, and this has me wondering.

Are we likely to be allowed to extend our house back to the garage. This would mean effectively continuing the external wall of our house on another 4 metres, but not intruding any further out towards the middle of the driveway. (making our house longer, but not any wider, if that makes sense)

I've checked the folio maps, and there is no right of way indicated, but don't know if this matters as it's been used this way since the houses were built about 40 years ago.

This proposed extension would not stop the neighbors getting a car into their garage. It would not involve space they ever use, or come near using for access to their property. It is space were we currently store our bins (they do the same on their side)

Am i right to be worried about this?

seamus

Rights of way are complicated, but the short answer is that unless your neighbour has used it, then the right doesn't exist.

It sounds to me like they probably enter & exit the rear of their house by going around their side, and not yours. And you currently have bins in the way, so even if they wanted to "loop" around, they couldn't?

In which case then a RoW doesn't exist. Or if one did exist at some point, then it could be considered abandoned if the RoW has been turned into bin storage.

Best thing is to bring it to them. You're going to need to talk to them anyway - if you want to build your wall on the boundary, they have to acquiesce.

whatawaster

seamus wrote: »

Rights of way are complicated, but the short answer is that unless your neighbour has used it, then the right doesn't exist.

It sounds to me like they probably enter & exit the rear of their house by going around their side, and not yours. And you currently have bins in the way, so even if they wanted to "loop" around, they couldn't?

In which case then a RoW doesn't exist. Or if one did exist at some point, then it could be considered abandoned if the RoW has been turned into bin storage.

Best thing is to bring it to them. You're going to need to talk to them anyway - if you want to build your wall on the boundary, they have to acquiesce.

Sorry, I might not have explained it clearly. I have done a rough outline of the site below. Hope this makes it clearer.

[URL="[url=https://ibb.co/HqBHqQX][img]https://i.ibb.co/4pKVpxJ/Houseplan.jpg[/img][/url]"][/url]

Calahonda52

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/homes-and-property/property-clinic-i-have-an-issue-over-a-shared-driveway-1.2857986

may help

seamus

Ah, I read it being shared at the front of two semi-Ds that were attached to eachother.

There's no RoW issue in your example unless your neighbour uses that route to get somewhere. I'm assuming the only reason anyone enters the red box is to get into your closed back garden, which means no RoW.

Assuming the boundary line bisects the driveway, then you don't even need to consult your neighbour on this. You may still need planning permission though.

One thing to be aware of, as pointed out in the handy link Calahonda gives, is that the extent of the shared driveway between the two houses must be kept clear. So if this will make your garage inaccessible for vehicles, you can't park your car between the two houses, and you can't leave your bins there either.

Doop

I wouldn't see any issue with what you are proposing, you are not affecting the neighbor in any way

Lumen

Where is the property boundary on the land registry maps? Bisecting the driveway?

whatawaster

Lumen wrote: »

Where is the property boundary on the land registry maps? Bisecting the driveway?

Yes, down the middle.

whatawaster

Lumen wrote: »

Where is the property boundary on the land registry maps? Bisecting the driveway?

Would you think there would be any issue with the extension moving a foot or two out on to the driveway, so long as their car can still access the garage? I guess this would require planning as it is now not wholly to the rear of the house.

We are hoping to build a utility, it will be a narrow one, but would rather eat into that unused driveway space than our small garden.

Xcellor

No planning required if you stay behind your own property and not visible from front however you would not be able to put windows on the side of the neighbors since need 2 meters from boundary.

If you redevelop the garage into living space you would need planning..

Lumen

whatawaster wrote: »

Would you think there would be any issue with the extension moving a foot or two out on to the driveway, so long as their car can still access the garage?

Do you use each others driveway space to turn?

I can see it being an issue if it prevents them from executing a turn, i.e. forces them to reverse all the way out of the driveway.

I'm not making a legal point, just trying to foresee any objections they might have to the development from the perspective of their own convenience.

whatawaster

Lumen wrote: »

Do you use each others driveway space to turn?

I can see it being an issue if it prevents them from executing a turn, i.e. forces them to reverse all the way out of the driveway.

I'm not making a legal point, just trying to foresee any objections they might have to the development from the perspective of their own convenience.

Neither of us use the garage for cars, and there wouldn't be enough space to turn anyway, you would have to reverse in or out as it is currently.

whatawaster

Xcellor wrote: »

No planning required if you stay behind your own property and not visible from front however you would not be able to put windows on the side of the neighbors since need 2 meters from boundary.

If you redevelop the garage into living space you would need planning..

Weren't planning on any windows, but is a back door ok as long as there are no windows on it?

dusteeroads

whatawaster wrote: »

Weren't planning on any windows, but is a back door ok as long as there are no windows on it?

Part 4 of TGDB refers

BryanF

As above - Turning radius tbc

whatawaster

BryanF wrote: »

As above - Turning radius tbc

Does this mean leaving enough room for neighbors car to maneuver/turn into their garage?

Calahonda52

OP: you need to clarify exactly where the yellow piece runs left and right at the back of the houses.
e.g. where is the garden wall now, half way out on the garage as shown in yellow now?.
Also you need to check the lease map/deed map as referred to in the article.

whatawaster

Calahonda52 wrote: »

OP: you need to clarify exactly where the yellow piece runs left and right at the back of the houses.
e.g. where is the garden wall now, half way out on the garage as shown in yellow now?.
Also you need to check the lease map/deed map as referred to in the article.

Yes the garden wall is pretty much were the yellow area begins.

Is lease it deed map different to folio map and if so how do I obtain this?

There is no yellow right of way on folio map

Calahonda52

whatawaster wrote: »

Yes the garden wall is pretty much were the yellow area begins.

Is lease it deed map different to folio map and if so how do I obtain this?

There is no yellow right of way on folio map

Well then you can't build where you have the red line as its part of the Shared area.
Re the other questions, read the article again

BryanF

whatawaster wrote: »

Does this mean leaving enough room for neighbors car to maneuver/turn into their garage?

When were the houses built? Is this in an estate? We need to understand why the wayleave extends behind the houses

whatawaster

BryanF wrote: »

When were the houses built? Is this in an estate? We need to understand why the wayleave extends behind the houses

Built in 1980 and yes it's an estate.

If the drive didn't extend a little bit behind my house I wouldn't be able to get a car in my garage. Though it wouldn't affect the ability of the Neighbor to get their car into their garage

BryanF

What width is the roadway between the houses? Given the wayleave id recommend getting a site inspection, possibly a turning radius ‘auto-track’ carried out (basically a drawing mapping a car/oil truck /fire engine

whatawaster

BryanF wrote: »

What width is the roadway between the houses? Given the wayleave id recommend getting a site inspection, possibly a turning radius ‘auto-track’ carried out (basically a drawing mapping a car/oil truck /fire engine

It's probably no more than 3m. There is plenty of space between the houses and garage (like 4m) meaning it's not an acute turn to get into garage

Thanks for the advice. Would an architect be the right person for that job?

BryanF

whatawaster wrote: »

It's probably no more than 3m. There is plenty of space between the houses and garage (like 4m) meaning it's not an acute turn to get into garage

Thanks for the advice. Would an architect be the right person for that job?

Yes

Calahonda52

BryanF wrote: »

What width is the roadway between the houses? Given the wayleave id recommend getting a site inspection, possibly a turning radius ‘auto-track’ carried out (basically a drawing mapping a car/oil truck /fire engine

B, given the existing shared setup, what benefit will this exercise bring?
The existing space is what it is and if the test is failed, what then?

whatawaster

Does the neighbor have a right of way over every single inch of the driveway, or only that part needed to access their property?

Calahonda52

whatawaster wrote: »

Does the neighbor have a right of way over every single inch of the driveway, or only that part needed to access their property?

read the article again, it makes it clear.

The assumption in this case is that the garden walls mark the boundary/limit of shared driveway on left and right beyond the back of the houses.

BryanF

Calahonda52 wrote: »

B, given the existing shared setup, what benefit will this exercise bring?
The existing space is what it is and if the test is failed, what then?

And if the test passed, you talk to the Neighbour with a view to removing the wayleave. This was asked before the width / length of the lane was known

BryanF

whatawaster wrote: »

Does the neighbor have a right of way over every single inch of the driveway, or only that part needed to access their property?

Over every inch of the yellow demarcation

Calahonda52

BryanF wrote: »

Over every inch of the yellow demarcation

Again OP, this is stated very clearly in the linked article