Motorway bus lanes

marno21

The NTA are to conduct a feasibility study on turning hard shoulders on motorways into bus lanes. They are starting with the M4 between Maynooth and Leixlip (TII are planning to widen this to 3 lanes in either direction so that'll be 3 lanes + bus lane presumably).

https://www.dublinlive.ie/bus-lanes-considered-motorway-maynooth-15810030

sdanseo

Sad that this is the mooted solution when the M4 runs parallel to an underutilised railway line.

Adding a couple of multi storey car parks at Maynooth, Leixlip, and maybe a passing track and the same at Kilcock would probably cost less.

Kermit.de.frog

So long as the bus lane is not as a replacement for an existing or propsed lane and that a proper hard shoulder is maintained for safety I don't have much of an issue with it.

However I do see alot of merit in dedicated high occupancy lanes.

Marcusm

marno21 wrote: »

The NTA are to conduct a feasibility study on turning hard shoulders on motorways into bus lanes. They are starting with the M4 between Maynooth and Leixlip (TII are planning to widen this to 3 lanes in either direction so that'll be 3 lanes + bus lane presumably).

https://www.dublinlive.ie/bus-lanes-considered-motorway-maynooth-15810030

It’s hard to see how the hard shoulder could become an efficient bus lane on a motorway as on/off ramps will impede it. The U.K. has moved hard shoulders to driving lanes as part of its “smart” highways programme. By contrast, the infamous M4 buslane from Heathrow into central London took over the rightmost overtaking lane.

marno21

Marcusm wrote: »

It’s hard to see how the hard shoulder could become an efficient bus lane on a motorway as on/off ramps will impede it. The U.K. has moved hard shoulders to driving lanes as part of its “smart” highways programme. By contrast, the infamous M4 buslane from Heathrow into central London took over the rightmost overtaking lane.

Didn't the M4 London bus lane come to a dead end at the start of a 2 lane elevated section ?

The benefit of an M4 bus lane in Kildare would be the bus lane continuing at Lucan

Of course it ignores the fact that money spent on M4 widening for buslanes would be far more effectively invested in the chronically overcrowded rail lines that parallel the M4. Spending money on new trains would be far preferable

prunudo

What speed limit would the bus lane have, I'd have serious safety concerns if you've got coaches hurtling down the bus lanes, inches from cars stopped on the remaining lanes.
As much as I think the buses shouldn't be stuck in the mainline it would be very dangerous if they were allowed to drive at their normal limits. And there are certain companies around here which don't seem to have limits as it is.

sdanseo

jvan wrote: »

What speed limit would the bus lane have, I'd have serious safety concerns if you've got coaches hurtling down the bus lanes, inches from cars stopped on the remaining lanes.
As much as I think the buses shouldn't be stuck in the mainline it would be very dangerous if they were allowed to drive at their normal limits. And there are certain companies around here which don't seem to have limits as it is.

That's a fair point actually.

I have been both aggressively tailgated and dangerously overtaken by one particular coach firm who may or may not have a bright green livery on different occasions.

Chris_5339762

The M4 in London was 2 lanes, then 3 lanes, then 2 lanes again which just caused a bottleneck. They put a bus lane in the 3rd lane of the 3rd lane bit to smooth out traffic.

Populist politicians removed it.

Marcusm

marno21 wrote: »

Didn't the M4 London bus lane come to a dead end at the start of a 2 lane elevated section ?

The benefit of an M4 bus lane in Kildare would be the bus lane continuing at Lucan

Of course it ignores the fact that money spent on M4 widening for buslanes would be far more effectively invested in the chronically overcrowded rail lines that parallel the M4. Spending money on new trains would be far preferable

That's the one although I remember it as the bus lane having priority at the Brentford elevated section (just before the gSK head office and the multi-storey car dealerships) as the M4 moved from 3 lanes to 2 lanes. It was a nightmare but all the more enjoyable for how much antipathy it raised amongst the chattering classes. At the end of the elevated section (which generally moved quite well), the buses, coaches etc ouwld have joined a traditional bus lane along the A4 (i.e left most lane).

slavetothegrind

The bus has become a nonstarter from beyond kilcock as it is stuck at maynooth in traffic most mornings.
Park and ride is almost non existant on this route.
Train services are sadly lacking and you have to think another line would double the capacity
You can be almost sure the actual resolution will be such a political fudge as to be feck all use to anyone.
PS. All you idiots racing up the hard shoulder i hope it's not you needing an ambulance that cannot get to you one morning.

_Kaiser_

Heard on the news this morning that some councillor was calling for the same idea on the M50... yea, imagine the chaos that'd cause if they removed one of the lanes to turn it into a sporadically used bus lane :rolleyes:

Agree with the suggestions above that lots of cheap P&R and high-frequency rail (whether it be Commuter, DART or LUAS) is the answer here

Vic_08

jvan wrote: »

What speed limit would the bus lane have, I'd have serious safety concerns if you've got coaches hurtling down the bus lanes, inches from cars stopped on the remaining lanes.
As much as I think the buses shouldn't be stuck in the mainline it would be very dangerous if they were allowed to drive at their normal limits.

Absolute rubbish, the fact is that bus drivers are well used to squeezing through gaps that would have the average car driver slowed to a crawl with their head out the window to gauge the gap.

Why don't you take a trip to Belfast on the M1 in peak hours. The peak time hard shoulder bus lane has been in operation there for over 10 years with no safety issues.

https://www.google.com/maps/@54.5337824,-5.9982542,3a,75y,4.12h,69.28t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s20C6a4pArnQ_7r17VRrG7g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

I have driven on it plenty of times at full or near full speed with no difficulty at all. Combined with the numerous Park and Ride facilities opened at motorway junctions as well as the busway into Europa it makes Belfast a very good city to get to by bus/coach for longer distance commuters.

Vic_08

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Heard on the news this morning that some councillor was calling for the same idea on the M50... yea, imagine the chaos that'd cause if they removed one of the lanes to turn it into a sporadically used bus lane :rolleyes:

Typical car-centric bullsh!t. The M50 is already chaos with the asphalt only barely dry from the last upgrade. We've tried road building to relieve congestion but as has already been proven in countless other countries providing more road space for commuting only leads to more car congestion.

Road based public transport needs to be properly prioritised, incentivised, promoted and funded. And yes that will be at the expense of private motorists convenience.

Rubberchikken

this is the same as bicycle lanes that begin well then end abruptly and in an illogical way.

do any of these planners ever get anything right

prunudo

Vic_08 wrote: »

Absolute rubbish, the fact is that bus drivers are well used to squeezing through gaps that would have the average car driver slowed to a crawl with their head out the window to gauge the gap.

Why don't you take a trip to Belfast on the M1 in peak hours. The peak time hard shoulder bus lane has been in operation there for over 10 years with no safety issues.

https://www.google.com/maps/@54.5337824,-5.9982542,3a,75y,4.12h,69.28t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s20C6a4pArnQ_7r17VRrG7g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

I have driven on it plenty of times at full or near full speed with no difficulty at all. Combined with the numerous Park and Ride facilities opened at motorway junctions as well as the busway into Europa it makes Belfast a very good city to get to by bus/coach for longer distance commuters.

So you are saying it is perfectly safe and acceptable for a vehicle fully loaded with 50+ passengers and weighing up to 20 ton to travel at 100kph down a bus lane while theres general traffic at crawl or even standstill only a couple of feet away?

shanec1928

jvan wrote: »

So you are saying it is perfectly safe and acceptable for a vehicle fully loaded with 50+ passengers and weighing up to 20 ton to travel at 100kph down a bus lane while theres general traffic at crawl or even standstill only a couple of feet away?

Eh what do the bus’s currently do along the quays?

Del2005

shanec1928 wrote: »

Eh what do the bus’s currently do along the quays?

You'd hope less than 30 instead of 100.

shanec1928

Del2005 wrote: »

You'd hope less than 30 instead of 100.

I’ve never seen them stick to the 30. The same principle applies bus’s moving along side static traffic it’s not as if it’s a new thing.

prunudo

shanec1928 wrote: »

Eh what do the bus’s currently do along the quays?

I hope they're not doing 100kph.

For the record, I'm not against the idea of bus lanes on motorways or dual carraigeways to combate congestion as long as its done right and not just simply relining the narrow hard shoulder and suddenly calling it a bus lane.

Vic_08

jvan wrote: »

So you are saying it is perfectly safe and acceptable for a vehicle fully loaded with 50+ passengers and weighing up to 20 ton to travel at 100kph down a bus lane while theres general traffic at crawl or even standstill only a couple of feet away?

Did you read what I posted? It is happening right now and has been for over a decade only a few hours drive from Dublin.

Want a closer example? Chapelizod bypass/N4 https://www.google.com/maps/@53.3432776,-6.3229113,3a,75y,303.82h,82.07t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s092cyrLtnrE3GFCpaXwNPQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

80kph limit, a constant procession of buses and coaches on a very congested road with the added fun of cyclists that won't use the off-road cycleway.

That one was bad for years because the bus lane was just the original narrow hard shoulder which was narrower than a bus, it's better since the lanes were realigned and there is more room in the bus lane.


Or how about the N3 https://www.google.com/maps/@53.4052912,-6.4085048,3a,75y,121.43h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s-mB-9Q1ArT0L15igNSZXsw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

That is a 100kph section, it's only a short stub now sadly. Before the road widening and junction upgrade it continued most of the way to the M50. Of course after a few years of relief the traffic congestion there is now worse than ever and it is obvious that a bus lane needed to have been retained.

And just in case I was not clear, I have driven on all of these numerous times beside slow and stationary traffic with no issues. As long as enough space is given for the bus lane a dual purpose hard shoulder or permanent bus lane on a motorway or DC is no less safe than a standard layout.

The fact is these days that a lot of hard shoulders are being widely abused by selfish pr!cks flying past lines of stationary traffic all around Dublin anyway. Better to mark them out as bus lanes and use them properly.

Kermit.de.frog

HOV lanes would provide MUCH greater effect.

Here is one in Pheonix, Arizona superbly implemented as the median lanes denoted by the double white line separation (having these lanes in the median is normal practice in the US).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHP82X9-LFo

Mostly empty bus lanes on a motorway would be ridiculous waste of space compared to HOV lanes.

markpb

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

HOV lanes would provide MUCH greater effect.

Mostly empty bus lanes on a motorway would be ridiculous waste of space compared to HOV lanes.

HOV lanes don't carry (1 2 3) any more people than general purpose lanes. What they do is limit the number of vehicles in the lane so the people in those vehicles have more predictable journey times. Los Angeles managed the same thing by charging people for using express lanes and increasing the price as demand grows.

People always criticise bus lanes for being mostly empty but that's exactly the point. If each bus is carrying 70-90 people, then you achieve the same capacity as several kilometers of general purpose lanes. If the lane is too full of buses, you won't get the increased predictable journey times. The same is true of HOV lanes, if they're too busy, they're of no benefit to anyone.

s14driftking

If there going to be used as bus lanes they will need total separation as the muppets in cars will just fill the bus lane.