Liability - wheeliebin damage to car

Diceicle

Pure hypothetical -
An homeowner leaves their wheeliebin out for collection. Post-collection and in high winds, the bin is blown into a car and causes damage.
I presume the owner of the bin is responsible for the damage as they didn't secure their bin?

Masala

Diceicle wrote: »

Pure hypothetical -
An homeowner leaves their wheeliebin out for collection. Post-collection and in high winds, the bin is blown into a car and causes damage.
I presume the owner of the bin is responsible for the damage as they didn't secure their bin?

I don't see it like that. Owner not negligent or caused damage deliberately. Can you prove how people secure their bin????? And show how he was negligent in his responsibility??

What about branch falls off tree in storm as you drive country roads ... do u expect farmer to pay costs cos tree was on his land??

That why we all have insurance???

i wouldn't fall out with neighbours on this.... you gonna cause grief fir something you not gonna win

BuzzMcdonnell

Masala wrote: »

I don't see it like that. Owner not negligent or caused damage deliberately.

What about branch falls off tree in storm as you drive country roads ... do u expect farmer to pay costs cos tree was on his land??

That why we all have insurance???

i wouldn't fall out with neighbours on this.... you gonna cause grief fir something you not gonna win

I wouldn’t consider this to be the same as a branch falling off a tree.

KevinCavan

It’s a tricky one. If you called into Garda station they might know. Presume it is a minor scratch on an expensive hypothetical car?

_Brian

Surely being the owners property it’s their responsibility to ensure it’s safely stored at all times.
If it was left unattended in a public place where it caused damage then I’d imagine they are responsible for the damage.

hullaballoo

It's unlikely a wheelie bin would cause significant damage, enough to put the law to the test.

However, in a hypothetical scenario where a wheelie bin is left out for emptying by the owner and the waste company empties the bin then there would appear to be two parties at least with potential liability if the bin causes damage - the owner and the bin company.

Afaik, bin companies retain ownership in the wheelie bins at all times, though this aspect would depend on the terms of the homeowner's contract with the bin company. That may be significant in terms of liability where high winds cause an emptied bin to become a danger.

I suppose when the homeowner leaves the full bin out to be emptied, it is secure enough due to the weight of its own contents. It only becomes a danger when it is emptied and left out where it could cause damage in high winds.

If I was to put money on the question of liability in this scenario, I'd think the bin company will be the party to whom the lion's share of liability attaches. Depending of course on all of the facts but on the basis of a straightforward analysis, I'd think the bin company would be liable for 70-90% of the damages with the remainder 10-30% being on the homeowner who initially left the bin out. I'm really only adding in liability for the homeowner to cover myself for things I haven't thought of because for the moment, I'm struggling to see what the homeowner should do differently in the circumstances.

Homer

_Brian wrote: »

Surely being the owners property it’s their responsibility to ensure it’s safely stored at all times.
If it was left unattended in a public place where it caused damage then I’d imagine they are responsible for the damage.

Are the bins not the property of the company that collects them? As in you don’t own them, they merely allow you to use them for the period of paying for their collection service. Anytime I’ve moved house we got new bins and they are taken away when property sold etc

gozunda

Damage caused during a storm ='act of god' -
for insurance purposes no?

hullaballoo

Act of God defence is only really available for an exceptional weather event. Hurricane force winds aren't really exceptional.

The question of whether an insurance will pay under a policy is as always not a question of law in the first instance at least. They are interested in avoiding liability and will routinely use any and all means available, including perverse interpretations in attempting to do so.

Sleeper12

Diceicle wrote:

Pure hypothetical - An homeowner leaves their wheeliebin out for collection. Post-collection and in high winds, the bin is blown into a car and causes damage. I presume the owner of the bin is responsible for the damage as they didn't secure their bin?

Isn't storm damage "an act of god"?

Mint Sauce

Diceicle wrote: »

Pure hypothetical -
An homeowner leaves their wheeliebin out for collection. Post-collection and in high winds, the bin is blown into a car and causes damage.
I presume the owner of the bin is responsible for the damage as they didn't secure their bin?

When I put my bin out, I always have it up against a wall, not blocking the path, road, and less likely to fall over. On collection bin company always leave it in road by kerb, on pavement away from wall, or sometimes on pavement in front of drive.

I never know on the day when they will will collect, I cant be at house all the time to immediatly take in. Would I be liable in them cases? I would hope not, as I left the bin as safe as I could prior to collection, the Bin company didn't afterwards.

gozunda

Mint Sauce wrote: »

When I put my bin out, I always have it up against a wall, not blocking the path, road, and less likely to fall over. On collection bin company always leave it in road by kerb, on pavement away from wall, or sometimes on pavement in front of drive.

I never know on the day when they will will collect, I cant be at house all the time to immediatly take in. Would I be liable in them cases? I would hope not, as I left the bin as safe as I could prior to collection, the Bin company didn't afterwards.

Found this - not specific to wheeliebins but it does include issues of liability from storm damage etc

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/farming/what-are-your-legal-rights-after-a-spell-of-bad-weather-831487.html

KevinCavan

Mint Sauce wrote: »

When I put my bin out, I always have it up against a wall, not blocking the path, road, and less likely to fall over. On collection bin company always leave it in road by kerb, on pavement away from wall, or sometimes on pavement in front of drive.

I never know on the day when they will will collect, I cant be at house all the time to immediatly take in. Would I be liable in them cases? I would hope not, as I left the bin as safe as I could prior to collection, the Bin company didn't afterwards.

That is a very good point, that it could be the bin company workers who left the bin in a less than safe location.

Del2005

hullaballoo wrote: »

It's unlikely a wheelie bin would cause significant damage, enough to put the law to the test.

A good paint job is ~€300 per panel before you even start on body work, so a a wheelie bin could easily rack up a couple of grand in damages to car if it's blown down the side.

1874

KevinCavan wrote: »

It’s a tricky one. If you called into Garda station they might know. Presume it is a minor scratch on an expensive hypothetical car?

You'd waste your time? they wouldnt have a clue or care

gozunda wrote: »

Damage caused during a storm ='act of god' -
for insurance purposes no?

Surely they describe that as an act of nature?


Anyway, better to not park on street if you can help it, Id be hard pushed to see a bin being blown into a car or lifted significantly that it could cause damage, I noticed how bins were blown over, but the biggest problem was the contents are emptied.

Del2005

1874 wrote: »

You'd waste your time? they wouldnt have a clue or care





Surely they describe that as an act of nature?


Anyway, better to not park on street if you can help it, Id be hard pushed to see a bin being blown into a car or lifted significantly that it could cause damage, I noticed how bins were blown over, but the biggest problem was the contents are emptied.

Driving through an estate a bin could easily blow onto the road and hit a car, or anything else in the area. It could blow into the side and drag along the car or hit the front.

1874

Del2005 wrote: »

Driving through an estate a bin could easily blow onto the road and hit a car, or anything else in the area. It could blow into the side and drag along the car or hit the front.

Okay? so the car is not parked but moving? Im no legal professional, but Id say drive with due care to the conditions, sounds like a tornado the car is driving through as Ive never seen a bin be blown so far or lift off the ground that it couldnt be seen coming or predicted, only noticed them being blown over and not coming off the ground, unless you were right on top of it and it blew into you, in which case youre probably too close.
If this hypothetical driver cant see that potentially coming then they need to slow down/increase their distance from objects.

GreeBo

1874 wrote: »

Anyway, better to not park on street if you can help it, Id be hard pushed to see a bin being blown into a car or lifted significantly that it could cause damage, I noticed how bins were blown over, but the biggest problem was the contents are emptied.

If you live near city centre you are probably using on street parking so there are multiple bins to take out your car.
A wheelie bin could easily cause thousands of damage, smash your head light cluster and dent a wing and for panel.

Del2005 wrote: »

A good paint job is ~€300 per panel before you even start on body work, so a a wheelie bin could easily rack up a couple of grand in damages to car if it's blown down the side.

+1

1874

Sounds like its a hazard of living in an urban area?
I can understand damage can occur, but "take out your car"? paint jobs and repairs can stack up alright, but thousands in damage from likely one bin?

mfceiling

I leave my bin out in the morning.

Bin company empty my bin when I'm at work.

I come home from work and my empty bin has been blown by a gale force wind into a neighbours car.

What exactly could I have done to stop this seeing as I was in work when it happened?

GreeBo

1874 wrote: »

Sounds like its a hazard of living in an urban area?
I can understand damage can occur, but "take out your car"? paint jobs and repairs can stack up alright, but thousands in damage from likely one bin?

A slight fender bender cost someone 2k to fix my car and that was just a bumper. An actual panel wound be much more.

Remember you are not paying out of your own pocket and finding a cheapo indy, you are heading to the main dealer and enjoying your courtesy car for the duration.

Homer

mfceiling wrote: »

I leave my bin out in the morning.

Bin company empty my bin when I'm at work.

I come home from work and my empty bin has been blown by a gale force wind into a neighbours car.

What exactly could I have done to stop this seeing as I was in work when it happened?

And.. the bin was in a different location from where you left it. The bin men placed it in a less secure location as they usually do? Blame the bin men? The owner?

GreeBo

mfceiling wrote: »

I leave my bin out in the morning.

Bin company empty my bin when I'm at work.

I come home from work and my empty bin has been blown by a gale force wind into a neighbours car.

What exactly could I have done to stop this seeing as I was in work when it happened?

Car owner claims from you.
Your house insurance pays him and claims from bin owners.
Their insurance pays out.

greasepalm

Maybe i am lucky if there is a storm forcast or very high winds i can hold off putting bins outside.

Diceicle

KevinCavan wrote: »

It’s a tricky one. If you called into Garda station they might know. Presume it is a minor scratch on an expensive hypothetical car?

It's genuinely hypothetical, but there was a close call in the high winds. Which just got me thinking.

Diceicle

_Brian wrote: »

Surely being the owners property it’s their responsibility to ensure it’s safely stored at all times.
If it was left unattended in a public place where it caused damage then I’d imagine they are responsible for the damage.

In my scenario, we have a bin she'd where some owners are supposed to store their bins when not for collection. If the owner leaves a bin out overnight post-collection, I'd see it that they would be responsible for any damage caused by their unsecured item.
Like if I finished my tesco shopping, popped my food into the boot of my car then just let the trolley roll into someone else's vehicle - in that instance it would be my duty to ensure the trolley (or bin) is sufficiently secured so as to not cause any damage.

Diceicle

hullaballoo wrote: »

It's unlikely a wheelie bin would cause significant damage, enough to put the law to the test.

However, in a hypothetical scenario where a wheelie bin is left out for emptying by the owner and the waste company empties the bin then there would appear to be two parties at least with potential liability if the bin causes damage - the owner and the bin company.

Afaik, bin companies retain ownership in the wheelie bins at all times, though this aspect would depend on the terms of the homeowner's contract with the bin company. That may be significant in terms of liability where high winds cause an emptied bin to become a danger.

I suppose when the homeowner leaves the full bin out to be emptied, it is secure enough due to the weight of its own contents. It only becomes a danger when it is emptied and left out where it could cause damage in high winds.

If I was to put money on the question of liability in this scenario, I'd think the bin company will be the party to whom the lion's share of liability attaches. Depending of course on all of the facts but on the basis of a straightforward analysis, I'd think the bin company would be liable for 70-90% of the damages with the remainder 10-30% being on the homeowner who initially left the bin out. I'm really only adding in liability for the homeowner to cover myself for things I haven't thought of because for the moment, I'm struggling to see what the homeowner should do differently in the circumstances.

That's interesting. I think, from my own scenario, the length of time the emptied bin is left unsecured would be a possible factor - bin emptied Thursday afternoon, blows into car some time on Friday.

Diceicle

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Isn't storm damage "an act of god"?

Possibly. But if you leave your emptied shopping trolley and it's blown into someone's car, I'd presume you'd bear some responsibility?

Del2005

1874 wrote: »

Okay? so the car is not parked but moving? Im no legal professional, but Id say drive with due care to the conditions, sounds like a tornado the car is driving through as Ive never seen a bin be blown so far or lift off the ground that it couldnt be seen coming or predicted, only noticed them being blown over and not coming off the ground, unless you were right on top of it and it blew into you, in which case youre probably too close.
If this hypothetical driver cant see that potentially coming then they need to slow down/increase their distance from objects.

Empty bins have blown hundreds of meters down my road on windy days, I can see the house number so know where they started. Bin gets blown over and after a few more gusts is moved so that the next gust catches it like a sail and moves it a big distance. You can't see a bin blowing into the side of your car and stopping won't stop the bin hitting you either.

The issue in this country is that it doesn't matter how the item hits the vehicle the owner is responsible for their property, ie if an animal hits my car the owner is liable so if a bin left unsecured hits my vehicle someone is liable and its not me. If you hit a person its the driver at fault.

corks finest

KevinCavan wrote: »

It’s a tricky one. If you called into Garda station they might know. Presume it is a minor scratch on an expensive hypothetical car?

Law would tell you nothing to do with them

Mod
Anti AGS rant deleted. No more of that here, pls

CIARAN_BOYLE

Diceicle wrote: »

That's interesting. I think, from my own scenario, the length of time the emptied bin is left unsecured would be a possible factor - bin emptied Thursday afternoon, blows into car some time on Friday.

The local byelaws may have influence here as well. At least one county council area has a bye law banning a home owner having a wheelie bin out on a non collection day. The responsibility to follow this bye law attaches to the home owner.

While the bye law may never be enforced it still influences legal decision making.

So if it's empties on a Thursday and it's not away on a Friday as required by bye law it's the homeowner at fault.

greasepalm

What happens if bin is left out on sunday night for collection on monday but are unable to collect it because access on narrow road was not possible.When i come home bin is not empty and i ring them and told will be done tomorrow so its still in same position as from sunday night.Last time it happened was told i had to wait for 2 weeks.

Johnnyhpipe

The person should hypothetically relax and remember life’s too short for this sort of sh1t


Mod
Language!

NUTLEY BOY

Consider the tort of negligence. The occupier of the house probably owes a duty of care to the public in relation the bin. What is that duty ? To exercise reasonable care in relation to the use of the bin inter alia.

By putting out a bin in certain weather conditions is it reasonably foreseeable that certain events may happen ? Is it reasonable, all things considered, for the occupier to have put out the bin in certain types of weather conditions or to have done so without any arrangements in place to retrieve the bin as distinct from leaving it on the street all day (which may have to happen if you are out all day).

If, on the evidence, it was unreasonable to the point of negligence to put out the bin and or leave it to roll around all day in high winds the occupier might expect to catch a liability. Remember that negligence is the failure to do what a reasonable person would do or doing something that a reasonable and prudent person would not do.

What about the bin company ? The mere fact that they owned the bin does not of itself attach liability to them. Again, on the evidence, it may be that they will have an independent liability if the accident was a reasonably foreseeable result of leaving a now emptied and lightened bin to wander the streets all day driven by prevailing conditions of heavy wind.

Vis Major - Act of God is a rarer plea these days. It is more convenient to simply deny negligence.

The mere fact that the bin was driven by high winds does not separate the occupier from responsibility. To argue the vis major concept you would want to show that an event of an exceptional and unforeseeable nature occurred such as a completely unexpected lightning strike. If the weather forecast tells you that there are force 8 to force 10 winds in your area tomorrow you are on clear notice of that as a reasonably foreseeable event and you need to act accordingly as would the mythically reasonable person to be found on the Clapham omnibus.

Insurance policies - a quick point. If you, as occupier, are negligent in relation to the bin you should be indemnified by your household insurers. However, beware of a potential slippery catch if your contract with the bin company contains a clause that obliges you to indemnify them [bin company] in respect of any accident such as that raised by OP. Some public liability insurance contracts contain a clause that excludes liability under the policy where that liability has been assumed under contract. The saving grace is that the insurers must indemnify if a liability would have existed anyhow outside of the contractual liability i.e. if you were negligent in your own right anyway.