Politics: Ireland's mother tongue

James Brown

Recent post in the politics forum regarding the charter:

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

Mod Note

Hi folks,

Quick reminder of the

English is the mother tongue of Ireland and is the language that the vast majority of our populace speaks. If you wish to speak in any other language, you must provide an English translation for what you're saying - it's just good manners.

regarding language

Fair point on usage but Irish is the mother tongue surely? A 'native' speaker would be an Irish speaker.

osarusan

A 'native speaker' just mean the language you acquired as a first language. There aren't any connotations associated with the term.

I grew up speaking English, my native language is English, I'm a native speaker of English. The fella next door to me is a native speaker of Polish.

'Mother tongue' is probably a fairly unhelpful term actually.

amcalester

Irish is our national and first official language, English is the second official language but English is the mother tongue of the vast majority of the population.

Chips Lovell

Two points of clarification, lest anyone get the wrong end of the stick (and I'm not saying anyone has yet).

1. This isn't a Politics forum rule, it's a sitewide rule.
2. The reminder was issued after someone posted in Spanish, not Irish.

seamus

"Mother tongue" applies to the individual more than a country. Your mother tongue, in effect, being the language your mother spoke to you from birth.

So in that regard the mother tongue of the vast majority of Irish people is English. It would also be fair to say that English is the "native" language in Ireland, being that language which is used as a first language by the vast majority of native people.

Irish has this unfortunate sideline where we'd all like to acknowledge it as a native language. But we can't speak it. In order to qualify as a native language, it needs to be spoken as a first language by the natives, or at least a significant proportion of them.

xi5yvm0owc1s2b

Matt Barrett wrote: »

A 'native' speaker would be an Irish speaker.

A "native speaker" of a language would be someone who has learned and used that language from early childhood. Someone who learns a language at school or later in life is not a native speaker of it.

There are some native speakers of Irish in Ireland, but they are a small minority. Many Irish speakers are not native speakers of Irish, having learned the language in school.

The majority of people in Ireland, though, are native speakers of English.

James Brown

I've looked it up and the responses vary.

To me 'Mother tongue' is the language of where you come from. Irish is of Ireland. English although widely used is an import.
In this 'site wide' context, where does Irish stand? English is our 'mother tongue' and Irish is the language created in and of Ireland but not the native nor mother tongue of Ireland? Doesn't make sense.

As our first official language, it should get a mention I would have thought. Furthermore, people should be allowed post completely in Irish without translation.

Kablamo!

Article 8 of the Constitution states the following:

The Irish language as the national language is the first official language.
The English language is recognised as a second official language.
Provision may, however, be made by law for the exclusive use of either of the said languages for any one or more official purposes, either throughout the State or in any part thereof.

So if I may....

English is the mother tongue of Ireland and is the language that the vast majority of our populace speaks. If you wish to speak in any other language, you must provide an English translation for what you're saying - it's just good manners.

to

English is the most commonly used language in Ireland. If you wish to speak any other languages you must provide an English translation for what you are saying. If you are posting in Irish please also include an English translation - it's just good manners.

Boards.ie: Mark

I imagine there are a couple of different definitions provided for "mother tongue," but a commonality that I found was that it's the one you learn as a baby. Cambridge Dictionary's, for example, is "the first language that you learn when you are a baby, rather than a language learned at school or as an adult."

Irish on the other hand would be recognised as the national and first official language of the country. However, much of the populace wouldn't speak it fluently, nor would it be the mother tongue, if using the definition above, of many people.

Unless we want people endlessly asking if they can go to the bathroom or talking about "na scamall sa speir" it's better that we ask people to stick to English.

The rules of the site say to use English or to at least provide an English translation. But the likes of Teach na nGealt and the Languages sub-forums are an exception to this.

osarusan

Matt Barrett wrote: »

I've looked it up and the responses vary.

To me 'Mother tongue' is the language of where you come from. Irish is of Ireland. English although widely used is an import.
In this 'site wide' context, where does Irish stand? English is our 'mother tongue' and Irish is the language created in and of Ireland but not the native nor mother tongue of Ireland? Doesn't make sense.

As our first official language, it should get a mention I would have thought. Furthermore, people should be allowed post completely in Irish without translation.

As I mentioned, I actually think 'mother tongue' is a bit unhelpful as it does have connotations of the ancient sod, mother Ireland, etc., as well as simply meaning 'native language'. And as another poster said, a country doesn't have a 'mother tongue' really.



But I think it's obvious what the charter means though - that English is the native language of most of the people in Ireland, and most of the people on boards, and so it's the default language on here.

James Brown

osarusan wrote: »

As I mentioned, I actually think 'mother tongue' is a bit unhelpful as it does have connotations of the ancient sod, mother Ireland, etc., as well as simply meaning 'native language'. And as another poster said, a country doesn't have a 'mother tongue' really.



But I think it's obvious what the charter means though - that English is the native language of most of the people in Ireland, and most of the people on boards, and so it's the default language on here.

If French became the most commonly spoken language in Spain, what would happen to Spanish? Just a language that carries the name associated with Spain, but French the mother tongue?

It is obvious what the charter means I'm commenting on the place of Irish in respect of 'English is the mother tongue of Ireland'.

amcalester

Matt Barrett wrote: »

If French became the most commonly spoken language in Spain, what would happen to Spanish? Just a language that carries the name associated with Spain, but French the mother tongue?

It is obvious what the charter means I'm commenting on the place of Irish in respect of 'English is the mother tongue of Ireland'.

Do you mean castellano?

osarusan

Matt Barrett wrote: »

If French became the most commonly spoken language in Spain, what would happen to Spanish? Just a language that carries the name associated with Spain, but French the mother tongue?

What would happen to Spanish? It would be there, it just wouldn't be the most commonly spoken language any more. It wouldn't be the native language of the majority of the population any more.

I have already said that I think the term "mother tongue" is unhelpful, and that a country doesn't have a 'mother tongue' anyway.

Having said that, if you are clear on what the charter means, then it sounds like your issue is more of an issue with the meanings and connotations of the term 'mother tongue' than it is an issue with the rules.

xi5yvm0owc1s2b

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Furthermore, people should be allowed post completely in Irish without translation.

There's a dedicated Irish language forum where people can post in Irish to their heart's content, without translation.

On other forums, it's been my experience that those people who insist on their "right" to post untranslated Irish are usually nationalistic trolls pushing some anglophobic agenda. It's best not to encourage them.

blanch152

Lilianna Millions Monster wrote: »

There's a dedicated Irish language forum where people can post in Irish to their heart's content, without translation.

On other forums, it's been my experience that those people who insist on their "right" to post untranslated Irish are usually nationalistic trolls pushing some anglophobic agenda. It's best not to encourage them.

It really comes down to how insular your view of Irishness is. For some, unless you speak Irish at home, you are somehow less of an Irishman.

For me, Irishness now has a much broader spectrum. In fact, the Irish language is only a small minority of what it means to be Irish. Most of our modern Irish culture is transacted through the English language. While that is upsetting to some, it is a truth.