Central heating upgrade ideas.

80's Bungalow and heating was modified from old solid fuel days with just oil boiler dropped in.

Radiators ancient and inefficient. Bolier is actually not bad condensing unit 35 Kw.

I want to try avoid trv's as I find them pretty crap after a few years use but may have no choice.

So I need new radiators, not all, some are a lot newer.

What else ? lol, it's not a closed system and still uses header tank.

I also got air I can not get out of upstairs rads, upstairs was converted but roof not lifted, tonight I tried bleeding air and herself noticed water gushing out the back and the funny thing is that the water was coming out the back over flow for months and then stopped for no reason but thinking about it it's only since I turned off the upstairs radiator, both have air that I can not get out and the bathroom rad is broken altogether so basically 0 upstairs rads work.

But why is water coming out the over flow with the rad open ? lol I can't figure this one out at all.

Ideally I'd love to get off oil but there's no alternative.

If electricity was cheap I would heat with all electric rads and could control them much easier.

I've thought about storage heaters but have electric car so my house supply would probably die.

heat pump sounds great but air to water to heat rads is a bad idea. If there was air to air that could be interesting , send heat around like AC ?

We're on our 2nd fill of oil since October, 2nd fill went in last week and serious insulation is too costly / impractical so got to burn kwh........

I think I am severely limited because all the rads are on a ring type system and can't be properly individually controlled. But I would at least like the boiler to turn off when the house is up to temp instead of cutting in and out all the time.

I would estimate a complete system flush would be required at this stage ?

Browndoff

An OPEN system depends on having its top-up tank at least a couple of metres ABOVE the highest radiator in the system.

Someone converted the attic of this bungalow and stuck a couple of radiators in the new upper room WITHOUT considering the inevitable effect on the central-heating system. That's why the upper rads refill so quickly with air and don't work at all. I like the simplicity of OPEN CH systems - but this is a simple case where there's NO CHOICE. You MUST convert it to a pressurised SEALED system with an Expansion Bottle to allow for heating and cooling, expansion and contraction of the water.

This has nothing to do with the type of Boiler you have, the Pump or the type of Radiators. You may, or may not, need to upgrade these - they could go on working for years!

Thanks for the reply, why would water be flowing hard out of the overflow when I open one of the upstairs rads ?

I will need to replace a lot of rads they are 30 odd years old and a lot of them make noises and some banging. Most of the TRVs don't work or are very inaccurate.

John.G

Deleted User wrote: »

Thanks for the reply, why would water be flowing hard out of the overflow when I open one of the upstairs rads ?

I will need to replace a lot of rads they are 30 odd years old and a lot of them make noises and some banging. Most of the TRVs don't work or are very inaccurate.

Might be able to suggest something based on answers to the following:

What make/model circ pump is installed and what speed setting is it on?.

What height is available between the F&E (small) tank water level and the roof?

Which of these systems is fitted?. (see attachment). (It wont be the semi sealed system)

John.G

John.G wrote: »

Might be able to suggest something based on answers to the following:

What make/model circ pump is installed and what speed setting is it on?.

What height is available between the F&E (small) tank water level and the roof?

Which of these systems is fitted?. (see attachment). (It wont be the semi sealed system)

If I were to hazard a guess I'd say the top one, definitely not the middle and possibly the bottom.

John.G

Deleted User wrote: »

If I were to hazard a guess I'd say the top one, definitely not the middle and possibly the bottom.

If you can try and confirm that it is the top one.

Even though I have a two story house, I have an attic conversion with a radiator. the F&E tank is (and always was ) raised up from the attic floor by ~ 0.6M which means that it is ~ 0.2M above the top of this radiator. I have (again always was) a combined vent & cold feed and have never experienced any pump over problems.
You might see if your F&E tank is sitting on the floor or is raised similar to mine, if not then IMO those dormer rads will never work properly.

Can you see the pump make/model/speed setting as some of these A rated ones (if fitted) are very powerful and will cause problems even in a perfectly installed vented systems, changing to one of their other modes of operation often "solves" these problems.

0lddog

Deleted User wrote: »

......... If there was air to air that could be interesting , send heat around like AC ?.........?

Most single split aircon units can operate in a heat mode as well as a cooling mode. There are even some units that are optimized for heating rather than cooling.:)

Water John

Fairly similar to you Mad Lad, 1990 bungalow. It's going to be a medium term job for me. To consider HP in any form I will have to drastically reduce demand. This will mean insulation and sealing. For my house I feel sealing is the biggest issue.
With HP would switch to aluminium rads. These come in sections that bolt together. Must look to see could thersmostats and actuators on rads be possible. This would control temp in each room.
The other option, esp if sealing looks costly is to look at wood gasification and a large hot water cylinder. Maybe fire it up every few days.
Really want to get away from oil.

John.G

John.G wrote: »

If you can try and confirm that it is the top one.

Even though I have a two story house, I have an attic conversion with a radiator. the F&E tank is (and always was ) raised up from the attic floor by ~ 0.6M which means that it is ~ 0.2M above the top of this radiator. I have (again always was) a combined vent & cold feed and have never experienced any pump over problems.
You might see if your F&E tank is sitting on the floor or is raised similar to mine, if not then IMO those dormer rads will never work properly.

Can you see the pump make/model/speed setting as some of these A rated ones (if fitted) are very powerful and will cause problems even in a perfectly installed vented systems, changing to one of their other modes of operation often "solves" these problems.

I'd have to take a look again not sure I can figure out the pipework but I'll try.

Water John

Water John wrote: »

Fairly similar to you Mad Lad, 1990 bungalow. It's going to be a medium term job for me. To consider HP in any form I will have to drastically reduce demand. This will mean insulation and sealing. For my house I feel sealing is the biggest issue.
With HP would switch to aluminium rads. These come in sections that bolt together. Must look to see could thersmostats and actuators on rads be possible. This would control temp in each room.
The other option, esp if sealing looks costly is to look at wood gasification and a large hot water cylinder. Maybe fire it up every few days.
Really want to get away from oil.

"wood gasification " do you mean using mix of wood and gas ?

Gas is not possible because I have no mains Gas and bottled gas is ridiculously expensive. We do have an open Gas fire in the sitting room but I don;t bother with it now, too expensive so I got a chimney balloon and sealed up the chimney and holy cow, the difference to draughts was amazing and the room stays hot many times longer after the heat is gone off.

I think now they are re-thinking all these air tight homes and looking at ways to bring in fresh air and circulate it, I think people finally realise no air is worse than cooler air lol.

I was thinking about wood pellets but these are about as bad as coal for PM2.5 emissions and proper storage is an issue for me, but wood pellet is much much worse than modern oil heating.

I do however want to install some kind of stove in the sitting room because I have a big garden with lots of trees that need cutting and pruning and want to use it for heat but it would be for space heating only not heating rads.

I like electric heating if I could install solar PV and wind turbine I would be sorted but wind turbines are again, ridiculously expensive to install.

The House got a C energy rating. The conservatory is a considerable source of heat loss and needs to be heated even slightly to keep damp out so we would be looking to make this into a useful room instead of hoarding crap in it most of the year because you can't really enjoy it most of the winter so I'd rather turn it into something useful like a proper decent extra bed room or sitting room.

Heat pumps interest me but sadly, I think without massive investment in upgrading the house that it will not be possible.

The attic is sort of converted, the roof was never raised so proper sealing and insulation of the roof may not happen.

Water John

Wood gasification is using dry timber at a high temp. It goes from solid to gas before burning. Would need a garage/plant room. A hot water tank of about 2,000ltrs.
Like this;
http://www.ecoangus.ie/angus_orligno_200_boiler.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIr8DGzLn44AIVjr_tCh0XGgpQEAMYASAAEgIrr_D_BwE

John.G

Deleted User wrote: »

I'd have to take a look again not sure I can figure out the pipework but I'll try.

As a start (the easy part) just have a look at the pump/model.

John.G

John.G wrote: »

As a start (the easy part) just have a look at the pump/model.

Yes I can do that, I can pull the cover off the boiler tomorrow afternoon.

Wartburg

"wood gasification " means a fuel boiler, feeded with timber logs. They do not burn, they get gasified instead. The efficiency is much higher in comparison to a standard log burner but I have doubts that you´ll get the system running here in Ireland in an appropriate way. First of all it needs to be adjusted very well and the more tricky point is, to have logs with the right degree of drying. My sister runs such a system in Germany. The logs need to be dried for approximately 3 years! If they´re too damp, the gasification process is not running well and tar will be created, which clogs the boiler.

Water John

Yes, it needs kiln dried timber in this country.

Wartburg

Wartburg wrote: »

"wood gasification " means a fuel boiler, feeded with timber logs. They do not burn, they get gasified instead. The efficiency is much higher in comparison to a standard log burner but I have doubts that you´ll get the system running here in Ireland in an appropriate way. First of all it needs to be adjusted very well and the more tricky point is, to have logs with the right degree of drying. My sister runs such a system in Germany. The logs need to be dried for approximately 3 years! If they´re too damp, the gasification process is not running well and tar will be created, which clogs the boiler.

Too much babying it and need a proper location for it and to store wood makes it a fail for me lol.

I wouldn't say the emissions are too eco though.

My Partners Parents use Solar PV and storage heaters in their house in Germany, works brilliantly, they sell the excess in Summer and buy it back in Winter.

Paullimerick

I would just suggest the most simple fix. Pressurise the heating system. Change the rads and trvs if u don't like them. Fit 2/3 motorised valves controlled by room stats. Digital ones. They will turn on and off the boiler. By the way I would also consider a power flush if boiler was just slipped in instead of back boiler. The costs not huge.

Water John

It's possibly a minority interest, but it is a totally renewable energy. Don't think their is a particulate problem either.

Our houses that weren't sealed well and under insulated 30 years ago need a ggod upgrade to reduce air flow and heat loss.
New houses on the other hand have to use an air exchanger to create a healthy atmosphere.

Markcheese

I was about to say the same as Paul, a power flush (if there's nothing wrong with old rads), if possible zoned controls,
And probably a move to a pressurised system...

Then you can look at better insulation, air tightness (and controlled ventilation),
when that's done, either air source heat pump ( air to air or air to water), or really efficient wood burning stove ,

Water John

Water John wrote: »

It's possibly a minority interest, but it is a totally renewable energy. Don't think their is a particulate problem either.

Our houses that weren't sealed well and under insulated 30 years ago need a ggod upgrade to reduce air flow and heat loss.
New houses on the other hand have to use an air exchanger to create a healthy atmosphere.

If it burns it creates PM 2.5, pellet burners were hailed for their eco friendliness until the idea came around that while it might be nice to be carbon Neutral , PM 2.5 is deadly and not worth killing a lot of people in the process.

Then came the fact a lot of the wood travelled from unsustainable forest from half way across the planet.

This is why I like electricity to heat a lot more, more renewable energy on the grid + installing solar PV will make it less expensive to run but we need a feed-in-tariff which the Government /ESB seem very resistant to the idea.

I have the garden space for ground sourced heat pump, whether I like the idea of digging up the garden or not is another matter.

+ I like the idea of on demand heating which I'm not sure heat pumps provide.

Paullimerick

Paullimerick wrote: »

I would just suggest the most simple fix. Pressurise the heating system. Change the rads and trvs if u don't like them. Fit 2/3 motorised valves controlled by room stats. Digital ones. They will turn on and off the boiler. By the way I would also consider a power flush if boiler was just slipped in instead of back boiler. The costs not huge.

Markcheese wrote: »

I was about to say the same as Paul, a power flush (if there's nothing wrong with old rads), if possible zoned controls,
And probably a move to a pressurised system...

Then you can look at better insulation, air tightness (and controlled ventilation),
when that's done, either air source heat pump ( air to air or air to water), or really efficient wood burning stove ,

Yes I am sure the system needs a flush by now, some of the rads are 30+ years old, some don't work at all, they are making banging noises sometimes and you can really hear the water go through them, can hear gurgling etc, it gives the impression that it's on it's last legs.

I am interesting in the motorised valves for the heating, can someone tell me how they are wired up ? not familiar with these.

I definitely like the idea of the boiler not kicking in and out when not needed when the rooms are warm.

By the way, here is my other question, the boiler is 35 Kw and is it not very inefficient heating 1 or 2 rooms with such a large boiler ?

I'm thinking an electric heater would be good for times I am up late and the heating does not need to be on to just heat the sitting room.

2-3 Kw heater V 35 Kw boiler ?

Paullimerick

The stats work. Your time click comes on. It checks the stat to see does it require heat. If not. No heating on. If it does it sends power to the motorised valve, which when powered up it opens and sends power to the boiler and pump via the auxiliary wire.
As for the boiler. They can be tuned down. But I'm not getting into that. A good service person will do that for u.

John.G

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes I am sure the system needs a flush by now, some of the rads are 30+ years old, some don't work at all, they are making banging noises sometimes and you can really hear the water go through them, can hear gurgling etc, it gives the impression that it's on it's last legs.

I am interesting in the motorised valves for the heating, can someone tell me how they are wired up ? not familiar with these.

I definitely like the idea of the boiler not kicking in and out when not needed when the rooms are warm.

By the way, here is my other question, the boiler is 35 Kw and is it not very inefficient heating 1 or 2 rooms with such a large boiler ?

I'm thinking an electric heater would be good for times I am up late and the heating does not need to be on to just heat the sitting room.

2-3 Kw heater V 35 Kw boiler ?

The 35 kw boiler will be cycling very very often (even if derated to ~ 26 kw) if only say 3 kw is required but it has been shown (will find a link later) that this doesn't have a huge effect on boiler efficiency or longevity.
IF you have night rate electricity then a electric heater would certainly be worth considering but only on the "cheap" night rate.
Links to wiring below.

https://www.plumberparts.co.uk/advice/heating-systems/s-plan-heating-system
https://www.plumberparts.co.uk/advice/heating-systems/y-plan-heating-system

Efficiency vs cycling.
Table 3 Percentage energy loss based on boiler purge time
Operational time per
cycle (seconds) Base efficiency % % loss Gross
3600 85.9% 0.0%
180 84.4% -1.5%
120 83.6% -2.3%
60 81.8% -4.1%
30 79.1% -6.8%
10 74.1% -11.8%

From the above, even if the boiler is cycling say 180 secs (3 mins) on and 180 secs off then the efficiency loss is still < 1.5% (hard to believe, really)

Yes I have night rate electricity, I would only use this electric heater when up very late, I would imagine it would be much more efficient that heating water all the way from one end of the house to the other with a 35 Kw boiler.

I'd imagine it would be more efficient even in the day time to heat one room with a 2-3 Kw heater anyway even at 17 C/Kwh day rate. Night rate is 7.4 C/Kwh

John.G

My Kero oil fill last month was 69C/litre = 6.5C/kwh so the boiler&system efficiency would have to be as low as 38% (6.5/17) to make full cost elect as cheap, I would expect in a very worst scenario, boiler a long way from house etc, a boiler/system efficiency of at least 65% so worst case oil supplied energy cost ~ 10C/kwh, still only 59% of full elect cost, IMO, night rate is the only way to go.

Water John

Another option rather than digging the lawn for GSHP, which can be hit or miss in terms of efficiency, is to drill bore wells. COP would be a bit higher and more reliable outcome.
If you have your own private water supply you could have an exchanger on that. COP on that could be as high as 6:1. Not sure of any guys designing/installing, used to be a guy around Kildare.

niallb

Deleted User wrote: »

... Solar PV ...... they sell the excess in Summer and buy it back in Winter.

And that's what makes it work.
Using the grid evens out supply and demand season to season and night to day.

That still costs a lot more to heat a single room than say 2 kw electric heater which would not be on all the time depending how long the room stays up to temp.

I would imagine 17 C/Kwh day rate leccy would still be cheaper to heat one room when I am there during the day, a storage heater would be good if they weren't so expensive, the payback would take years and we have the oil for the rest of the house.

We have a great Effel 11 Kw oil stove in the kitchen, Dining and Conservatory if needed, I can't believe there is not a lot more of them around, its brilliant.

Water John

Water John wrote: »

Another option rather than digging the lawn for GSHP, which can be hit or miss in terms of efficiency, is to drill bore wells. COP would be a bit higher and more reliable outcome.
If you have your own private water supply you could have an exchanger on that. COP on that could be as high as 6:1. Not sure of any guys designing/installing, used to be a guy around Kildare.

Yes I have a well , that would be a good idea but unfortunately the house would not be insulated or air tight enough for a heat pump as much as I have been against them they are cheaper now and have grants available.

When I say that the house isn't insulated or airtight enough that would mean the HP would have to run a lot more probably reducing it's life, regarding the energy usage I could install some Solar PV to help feed it so I probably wouldn't be as worried about the extra power consumption.

So 6:1 I would take it then if the HP was 15 Kw that would mean power consumption of 2.5 Kw ? that seems very low to be true ?

Water John

Yes it is the best COP that can be achieved. Use of a stainless steel exchanger needed. Dairy farmers use what is called a plate cooler to precool the milk coming from the cow with water before it goes into the bulk tank. Really saves on refridgeration costs. I wonder would it do this job. Just kicking around ideas.
Like me it is about a combination of house upgrade and change of heat source.
It's on the to do list.

Bigus

Is there any easy win insulation possibilities ? At all at all ?

Attic ceiling? North facing walls ( insulated plasterboard diy). As mentioned some draught exclusion.
Conservatory, timber battens across the apex to form an insulted plaster ceiling and turn it to sun room ? I did the latter with huge gains and pittance cost .

And knowing your interests in alternative energy, I saw an interesting one about an
Austrian house with an absolutely huge insulated outside watertank heat sink/bank , powered by solar , I think it was over 20,000 litres , it takes the whole summer to heat up and I don't know how useful it is , over winter , but the principal sounds good as it gets small winter top ups daily, yet uses mainly stored summer heat to heat an admittedly probably well insulated house.

If the existing well could be used it would be a good idea and I'm reading now where existing rads can be uses but to be honest we want to change them the old ones look terrible after 30 years.

Air to water seems to have a COP of around 4 and 2.5 in the cold which is more than I was expecting to be honest.

I think that if a feed-in-tariff could be offered sooner rather than later then this with heat pump would be a great idea and even more use of the Solar could be had from the PV because it would be on all day then night saver for the night time running of the pump and with work charging now I'm saving many, many Kwh.

I estimate with work charging I am saving at least 25 Kwh per shift, 14 shifts a month = 350 Kwh a month.

A heat pump would indeed make solar PV more attractive but here's the catch, solar PV would generate much less when you need heating the most so this is where a feed-in-tariff is much more beneficial because the excess sold in the warmer months can go towards buying back electricity in the winter for heating.

What are the odds of a FIT in Ireland in the next 5 years ? I'd say slim to 0.

Markcheese

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yes I am sure the system needs a flush by now, some of the rads are 30+ years old, some don't work at all, they are making banging noises sometimes and you can really hear the water go through them, can hear gurgling etc, it gives the impression that it's on it's last legs.

I am interesting in the motorised valves for the heating, can someone tell me how they are wired up ? not familiar with these.

I definitely like the idea of the boiler not kicking in and out when not needed when the rooms are warm.

By the way, here is my other question, the boiler is 35 Kw and is it not very inefficient heating 1 or 2 rooms with such a large boiler ?

I'm thinking an electric heater would be good for times I am up late and the heating does not need to be on to just heat the sitting room.

2-3 Kw heater V 35 Kw boiler ?

If you have a well insulated house, you won't really worry about the sitting cooling down much, or keeping the heating on for an extra hour,
and don't forget the 35 kW for the boiler is the max figure, if you're just topping up the zone that the sitting room is in, (if your zoning allows this)
which is already warm, and not loosing much heat because its insulated, the boiler will use way way less than this...
Ór if the zoning isn't great (old systems aren't always) chuck another log on the wood burner.. 😀.

Markcheese

Markcheese wrote: »

If you have a well insulated house, you won't really worry about the sitting cooling down much, or keeping the heating on for an extra hour,
and don't forget the 35 kW for the boiler is the max figure, if you're just topping up the zone that the sitting room is in, (if your zoning allows this)
which is already warm, and not loosing much heat because its insulated, the boiler will use way way less than this...
Ór if the zoning isn't great (old systems aren't always) chuck another log on the wood burner.. &#55357;&#56832;.

But, electric heating is much more efficient, boilers might be up to 90% efficient but the losses in the system make the total system less efficient.

An electric heater converts 100% of energy consumed into heat So I would imagine to keep 1 room ticking over it would be much more efficient to use and electric heater particularly after 11 Pm on night rate.

0lddog

Deleted User wrote: »

..........Heat pumps interest me but sadly, I think without massive investment in upgrading the house that it will not be possible.........

You may be right about that................................but then again you may not .

ML, this is, perhaps, not relevant to your present project but might give you some ideas :

A lot of Kiwiland gets winters much colder than here.

Over there Harvey Norman ( who else ) sell heat pumps.....
For example :

https://www.harveynorman.co.nz/home-appliances/heating-and-cooling/heat-pumps-and-air-conditioners/mitsubishi-electric-hypercore-fh35-heat-pump-air-conditioner.html
( thats priced in NZ$ so under €2k before install )

Note it is optimized for heating with useful COP at -15C

( Usually Air - Air heat pumps are best suited to open plan layouts )

Bigus

Bigus wrote: »

Is there any easy win insulation possibilities ? At all at all ?

Attic ceiling? North facing walls ( insulated plasterboard diy). As mentioned some draught exclusion.
Conservatory, timber battens across the apex to form an insulted plaster ceiling and turn it to sun room ? I did the latter with huge gains and pittance cost .

And knowing your interests in alternative energy, I saw an interesting one about an
Austrian house with an absolutely huge insulated outside watertank heat sink/bank , powered by solar , I think it was over 20,000 litres , it takes the whole summer to heat up and I don't know how useful it is , over winter , but the principal sounds good as it gets small winter top ups daily, yet uses mainly stored summer heat to heat an admittedly probably well insulated house.

I missed this post.

The attic has a good bit of insulation but it is quite draughty in the windy weather you can really feel it up there but I expect it's the same for a lot of attics.

The walls were pumped a few years ago by the previous owners.

I think what made an unbelievable difference was the Chimney balloon , it made me realise just how much heat is sucked out of the house by a chimney and not only that but the big draught is gone that was the worst.

The conservatory would be far better off turned into a much more useful room like a larger guest bedroom or something, it just fills with junk the 10 months of the year you can't use it.

I was reading an Irish Times article about heat pumps and they mentioned a Cop of about 4.5 for air to water and in very cold weather about 2.5 which isn't that bad.

If I installed a solar array this could help run the HP in winter but ideally as I keep saying we need a FIT which would mean excess goes to grid and bought back when you need it, i.e summer excess goes to grid to buy back for heat pump in winter.

Yes I was highly against HP but the grant has made me reconsider and the efficiency gains of the last few years.

I'm just thinking out loud at the moment because the heating is on it's last legs and know it needs upgrading.

Water John

I'd query a COP of 4.5 on A2W. GSHP might give that. Many people have put a roof on their conservatories, converting it to a sunroom. I'd put an external door into it from the house to cut down on heat leaking into it. Just control the heat in there to stop dampness.

Water John

Water John wrote: »

I'd query a COP of 4.5 on A2W. GSHP might give that. Many people have put a roof on their conservatories, converting it to a sunroom. I'd put an external door into it from the house to cut down on heat leaking into it. Just control the heat in there to stop dampness.

Yeah I'd like to know at what temperature range this is achieved.

I'd like to know how easy it is to use the well too.

John.G

Extract from Kingspan Aeromax Units. (should be representative of most ASHPs)

Cop of 2 isn't the greatest is it especially if you can get around 6 from a well ?

I had a look down the well a while ago and there seems to be plenty of space to fit pipes down, the only issue is that the well is the opposite end of the house that the Oil boiler is.

Hearing of increased carbon tax is leading me to lean towards the idea of heat pump as much as I was against them in the past I am coming around to the idea.

If the house is suitable that is, of course it's not going to be as air tight as an A or B rated house and it will have to work more etc but it could be a good idea considering the current heating system is on it's last legs.

Does anyone have any idea of the cost of such a system ?

One good thing is that we have lots of big rads in the house I was reading is a good thing.

Water John

You don't have to put pipes down the well that would be a traditional borewell system. I'm talking of taking a feed from the water coming into the house and running it through an exchange plate, then to waste.
Let's say the temp of the water ground water is 7C the exchanger will lower it to 5C and use the 2C diff as the heat source in the heat pump.
Here's an example;
http://www.climatecontrol.ie/water-to-water.htm

A COP of 6.5 would be amazing.

That looks like a 2nd well would be needed ?

Water John

The 2nd well is usually a fairly shallow well to dump the water back under ground. I'm sure you'll can come up with a discharge solution. It is simply water.
This option has been in the back of my head for years (with a lot of other nonsense), since I first heard of it. It's really a nobrainer for rural houses with good insulation and sealing.

Well that's just it, my house is not very well sealed and probably could do with being insulated better. the walls were pumped and more insulation in the attic but could probably do with more in the attic either way it won't be as well sealed as A rated house.

The downside is that it might have to run more often , the positive it could probably have the house warm 24x7 and I could install solar PV to help offset the cost of running it as there is a grant now available for HP + PV.

Yes more insulation is always better but the fact is the heating must be renewed as it's on it's last legs and that's where money has to be spent as priority.

listermint

Deleted User wrote: »

Well that's just it, my house is not very well sealed and probably could do with being insulated better. the walls were pumped and more insulation in the attic but could probably do with more in the attic either way it won't be as well sealed as A rated house.

The downside is that it might have to run more often , the positive it could probably have the house warm 24x7 and I could install solar PV to help offset the cost of running it as there is a grant now available for HP + PV.

Yes more insulation is always better but the fact is the heating must be renewed as it's on it's last legs and that's where money has to be spent as priority.

tbh id be going with getting a better standard of air tightness first rather than planning to run a system longer.

You may be highly disappointed in decent cold spells. which we appear to be getting more and more of.

listermint

listermint wrote: »

tbh id be going with getting a better standard of air tightness first rather than planning to run a system longer.

You may be highly disappointed in decent cold spells. which we appear to be getting more and more of.

Wouldn't be as bad with a cop of 6 ish with Geo compared to 2 for A2W, especially if I can add solar PV.

Not sure I could improve air tightness much to be honest especially given the fact the attic has been converted and access is virtually impossible.

To be honest the best thing I did for air tightness was block off the sitting room chimney , they improved the level of heat retention considerably.

If the HP could cost 500-700 to run would be a lot cheaper than oil especially now they're talking about carbon tax hikes.

Water John

A2W in the best new houses seem to be in the region of €4/500 incl hot water.
Your house and my house would be a multiple of that in their present condition.
Though the COP of 6 is tempting.

Water John

Water John wrote: »

A2W in the best new houses seem to be in the region of €4/500 incl hot water.
Your house and my house would be a multiple of that in their present condition.
Though the COP of 6 is tempting.

COP of 6 is more than tempting especially if solar PV could b e installed.

The only reason I am considering it is because the current heating is in bad need of renewing.

The savings will take longer to pay back but the prospect of having a warm house 24x7 and not having to order Oil again is very tempting.

I sent that company an email so we'll see what they have to say. I wonder can they back up their COP claim ?

New Air sourced HP https://passivehouseplus.ie/news/marketplace/viessmann-launch-new-ultraquiet-air-source-heat-pumps

" The COP (coefficient of performance), according to the EN 14511 standard, is up to 5.0 (A7/W35) and up to 4.1 (A2/W35)."