Non-Habitable Attic Space?

Gatster

We viewed a house recently that has an attic room, permanent staircase and an en-suite.

There are all the appropriate certs for building regs but it is a non-habitable space owing to the fire regs and head space.

The thing is the agent has included it as part of the overall floor space for the whole property, but as it’s effectively storage I don’t think think this is correct. The house is pricier than similar properties because of this.

Any thoughts whether this can be questioned?

mrslancaster

How much more than others in the area without the converted attic? We are looking at the cost of an attic conversion and they are not cheap even without an en-suite. Plus you will not have any of the disruption or mess that happens with building works which can be a nightmare.

KaneToad

Gatster wrote: »

We viewed a house recently that has an attic room, permanent staircase and an en-suite.

There are all the appropriate certs for building regs but it is a non-habitable space owing to the fire regs and head space.

The thing is the agent has included it as part of the overall floor space for the whole property, but as it’s effectively storage I don’t think think this is correct. The house is pricier than similar properties because of this.

Any thoughts whether this can be questioned?

It doesn't matter what the agent includes in his calculation of floor space. He might also like to include the shed and wardrobe floor spaces. You're the buyer, assess the floorspace yourself and bid accordingly.

The agent is acting for the seller. I would take everything he says with a pinch of salt.

Gumbo

Gave you a response in your building regulations thread.

Nobodysrobots

How much is an attic conversion with ensuite and velux windows on your average 3/4 bed semi d with standard roof these days? Thinking of doing the same to a property we're bidding on.

Nobodysrobots

Also I've heard engineers conducting pre purchase surveys rarely if ever sign off conversions for bedroom use, is this true?

adaephon

Hi Have had 2 quotes for 18k for this. one without cosmetic and one with (tiling etc)

Franz Von Peppercorn

I assume the certs include fire certs. If so then the issue may just be ceiling height, which is fairly arbitrary.

seefin

Zorya wrote:

Try blast out of your self absorption for a while, give it a good shot, lots of exercise, read about things you don't know, do new things, spend memorable time with the children, give it your all for a year or so, appreciating what you have, and postpone thinking about stuff. Reevaluate after you have given life a real run for its money and if it still feels crap maybe see a counsellor.

adaephon wrote:

Hi Have had 2 quotes for 18k for this. one without cosmetic and one with (tiling etc)

That's not too bad. Is that for attic conversion in a 3 bed?

If you think the house is too expensive then don't bid on it, seems simple enough?

ted1

Gatster wrote: »

We viewed a house recently that has an attic room, permanent staircase and an en-suite.

There are all the appropriate certs for building regs but it is a non-habitable space owing to the fire regs and head space.

The thing is the agent has included it as part of the overall floor space for the whole property, but as it’s effectively storage I don’t think think this is correct. The house is pricier than similar properties because of this.

Any thoughts whether this can be questioned?

Nothing to question. Just make an offer on what you are willing to spend on it. Bottom line is owners want to sell it for x are you willing to offer x.

Also while it’s not technically considered habitable is it cuttentky or will you use it as such. Plenty of people do

1641

Everyone else will see the house the way you do. So the price is the price that someone is prepared to pay at the end of the day.
As noted, plenty of people use such conversions for habitation. Beware, though, that there may be insurance issues - in the event of a claim and it emerges that it is being lived in. Is it for your own use or rental ? Also the same issues, and reservations for some, will still be there if you come to sell again.

4ensic15

Gatster wrote: »

We viewed a house recently that has an attic room, permanent staircase and an en-suite.

There are all the appropriate certs for building regs but it is a non-habitable space owing to the fire regs and head space.

The thing is the agent has included it as part of the overall floor space for the whole property, but as it’s effectively storage I don’t think think this is correct. The house is pricier than similar properties because of this.

Any thoughts whether this can be questioned?

The attic space is usable as a store. It just can't be used for sleeping accommodation. Other space such as understairs storage will also be included in the floor space measurement. In any event, the agent will have contracted out of any liability for the dimensions provided and it will be up to you to satisfy yourself as to the dimensions.
The agent can quote any price the owner instructs him to quote. What prices are being quoted for other properties is irrelevant.
The decision you have to make is how much the house is worth to you, if anything. Bid up to that level and if you don't get a deal, abandon any idea of buying that property.

Eric Cartman

its an attic conversion that almost certainly was used as a bedroom and probably will by whoever the new owner is , regardless of regulations or certs. The most irish of irish planning violations.

Gumbo

Eric Cartman wrote: »

its an attic conversion that almost certainly was used as a bedroom and probably will by whoever the new owner is , regardless of regulations or certs. The most irish of irish planning violations.

You don't need planning to convert the attic space to a bedroom so its not a Planning Violation.

Brego888

kceire wrote: »

You don't need planning to convert the attic space to a bedroom so its not a Planning Violation.

What do you actually need to officially classify an attic conversion as a bedroom?

Gumbo

Brego888 wrote: »

What do you actually need to officially classify an attic conversion as a bedroom?

Building Regulation Compliance.
You are converting a 2 storey house into a 3 storey house so significant structural alterations and fire safety provisions must be met.

This will go some way of explaining the requirements - https://www.housing.gov.ie/sites/default/files/migrated-files/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad%2C1657%2Cen.pdf

Optimus Prime

Does anyone know if an attic is converted to a room that is used for storage and i honestly mean storage, not a bedroom, no en-suite, but it has a permanent stairs going up to it do you need planning permissions or any certs for different things? Im clueless about this stuff but my attic in our house is converted but we dont have any of that. It has a fire alarm in it, wired. and a couple of plug sockets. 2 x Velux windows to the back of the house. Just wondering if we ever sell will it be an issue. Thanks

sunnyday1234

Optimus Prime wrote: »

Does anyone know if an attic is converted to a room that is used for storage and i honestly mean storage, not a bedroom, no en-suite, but it has a permanent stairs going up to it do you need planning permissions or any certs for different things? Im clueless about this stuff but my attic in our house is converted but we dont have any of that.  It has a fire alarm in it, wired.  and a couple of plug sockets.  2 x Velux windows to the back of the house.  Just wondering if we ever sell will it be an issue.  Thanks

One thing you need anyway is self closing fire doors all the way down to the exit of the house so in the event of a fire on the second floor then anyone in the 3rd floor will be able to get out of the house. We had to do this and its costly and the self closing doors are very annoying but its unreal the amount of people who have their attic converted incorrectly thinking they will never need to sell the house
Then when they try and sell it , if the buyer is getting a mortgage then the bank will insist on an engineers report and any good engineer wont sign it off as its basically invalidating the house insurance

3DataModem

We just sold a house with an attic converted to a room that we used for sleeping but was not a habitable space according to regs. Almost every buyer noted the fact and it affected price. The attic still added value, but not as much as a habitable space obviously.

The other downside was that one 1st floor room was reduced to accommodate stairs to attic at the time, bringing the room under habitable space minimum for house built at that time. We knew this at the time we made the change.

As the posters above said; you just need to find a buyer who wants what you are selling.

C3PO

3DataModem wrote: »

We just sold a house with an attic converted to a room that we used for sleeping but was not a habitable space according to regs. Almost every buyer noted the fact and it affected price. The attic still added value, but not as much as a habitable space obviously.

The other downside was that one 1st floor room was reduced to accommodate stairs to attic at the time, bringing the room under habitable space minimum for house built at that time. We knew this at the time we made the change.

As the posters above said; you just need to find a buyer who wants what you are selling.

But did you provide engineers reports etc to the buyer?

Optimus Prime

3DataModem wrote: »

We just sold a house with an attic converted to a room that we used for sleeping but was not a habitable space according to regs. Almost every buyer noted the fact and it affected price. The attic still added value, but not as much as a habitable space obviously.

The other downside was that one 1st floor room was reduced to accommodate stairs to attic at the time, bringing the room under habitable space minimum for house built at that time. We knew this at the time we made the change.

As the posters above said; you just need to find a buyer who wants what you are selling.

There was no changes made to any bedrooms in our house, i have no problem not being able to sell it as a habitable room, thats not what its intended purpose ever was, so i honestly wouldnt mind if it was sold as just converted for storage, that would be fine.

Gumbo

Optimus Prime wrote: »

Does anyone know if an attic is converted to a room that is used for storage and i honestly mean storage, not a bedroom, no en-suite, but it has a permanent stairs going up to it do you need planning permissions or any certs for different things? Im clueless about this stuff but my attic in our house is converted but we dont have any of that. It has a fire alarm in it, wired. and a couple of plug sockets. 2 x Velux windows to the back of the house. Just wondering if we ever sell will it be an issue. Thanks

Still a conversion from a 2 to 3 storey dwelling so structural certs and fire safety compliance at a minimum.

Optimus Prime

Yeh i dont have those.. is it a 3 story dwelling if its just for storage? is it the inclusion of a stairs that changes that?

Gumbo

Optimus Prime wrote: »

Yeh i dont have those.. is it a 3 story dwelling if its just for storage? is it the inclusion of a stairs that changes that?

The new accessible storey changes it in my opinion.

mrslancaster

Optimus Prime wrote: »

Yeh i dont have those.. is it a 3 story dwelling if its just for storage? is it the inclusion of a stairs that changes that?

I'd like to know this too or is it the alterations to the rafters supporting the roof?
What if the rafters are not changed and the access is a pull down ladder?

Limpy

I got mine done.

The key thing here regardless of what you use it for is you are cutting away the rafters. Your original certificate of compliance when the house was build would be invalidated.

So selling will create problems. My mum had a similar room which people slep in and it's still perfect. Completed using wood. Add a few k and you can get rolled steel to add support to the floor. You need to inform your neighbour if your house is a semi or terraced house of you are putting the steel into the party wall.

I have one. Build with wood. I don't plan on selling my house for a long time so I will worry about that in 20 years.

I will inform the insurance company also to see what they say.

1874

Limpy wrote: »

I got mine done.

The key thing here regardless of what you use it for is you are cutting away the rafters. Your original certificate of compliance when the house was build would be invalidated.

So selling will create problems. My mum had a similar room which people slep in and it's still perfect. Completed using wood. Add a few k and you can get rolled steel to add support to the floor. You need to inform your neighbour if your house is a semi or terraced house of you are putting the steel into the party wall.

I have one. Build with wood. I don't plan on selling my house for a long time so I will worry about that in 20 years.

I will inform the insurance company also to see what they say.

Do you? my neighbour never informed me, they definitley put steel in and I plan on doing so myself, although I intend on getting someone to do the works so I'll expect they know what needs to be done in terms of paperwork

Limpy

1874 wrote: »

Do you? my neighbour never informed me, they definitley put steel in and I plan on doing so myself, although I intend on getting someone to do the works so I'll expect they know what needs to be done in terms of paperwork

Most people just build away. But there is a party wall act.

http://www.mypartywall.ie/faq.html

Even if you get steel and you wanted anything signed off an engineer would need to review the plans before, during and after the work. But you wouldn't get a certificate to says its a room. Just the structure was changed and an engineer put his name to the work being compliment with building regs.

1874

Limpy wrote: »

Most people just build away. But there is a party wall act.

http://www.mypartywall.ie/faq.html

Even if you get steel and you wanted anything signed off an engineer would need to review the plans before, during and after the work. But you wouldn't get a certificate to says its a room. Just the structure was changed and an engineer put his name to the work being compliment with building regs.

I just looked cant see anything regarding it, could my neighbour prevent me putting steels into the adjoining wall? they have already done so without informing me. I saw steel being brought in and left in their garden, Ive no doubt it was used for an attic conversion and the clatter of noise suggests they kango'd out part of the wall to rest the steel on, I checked my side at/after that as I was concerned about the level and duration of the noise to see if they had damaged the wall between our attics, and I couldnt find anything, so I took it that it was sound transmission in that instance

Gumbo

1874 wrote: »

I just looked cant see anything regarding it, could my neighbour prevent me putting steels into the adjoining wall? they have already done so without informing me. I saw steel being brought in and left in their garden, Ive no doubt it was used for an attic conversion and the clatter of noise suggests they kango'd out part of the wall to rest the steel on, I checked my side at/after that as I was concerned about the level and duration of the noise to see if they had damaged the wall between our attics, and I couldnt find anything, so I took it that it was sound transmission in that instance

You don’t put steel into the party wall.
You bolt it to the party wall.

You try to minimize any penetrations into the party wall if possible.

1874

kceire wrote: »

You don’t put steel into the party wall.
You bolt it to the party wall.

You try to minimize any penetrations into the party wall if possible.

I did not see exactly what was done at the time, because it was in their property, but I could hear it at the time, they were definitely using a kango to dig out the party wall at attic level, I looked to see if I could find damage afterwards on my side, as the noise was so loud and the vibrations so significant that I was concerned about damage. I knew where they were carrying out work at the time as I could tell from my side what was going on and where when they used a kango. Same when they used it at the kitchen level to chase out channels for wiring, the noise was so significant and the works had gone on so long I walked in and demanded they stop and they were chasing out channels in the kitchen in the party wall. That was a few years ago, Im wondering now if I have any comeback if they damaged the party wall without permission if it has caused any structural damage? they certainly never looked for permission, I was aware of party wall agreements, but didnt even know it was necessary unless you were building up to or over the boundary.
Why Id get a proper builder with insurance and get it done right if carrying out the work (to cover myself if I ever sold it or if any damage occured), my neighbours got their own builders in, but seemed to be a bunch of lads they knew, wether they had insurance or were experienced to do it I dont know for sure, but I suspect not.



So my neigbours should have only bolted their steels to the party wall and the other end would be their external wall, would they rest them over cutouts in the blocks? Im not sure where I stand here as Im convinced they dug out at attic level using a kango on the party wall, there was no way they were using a drill at that time, but its been a few years, Im not sure where I stand with checking this work as its in their property, no doubt covered up and its been afew years, proabably 6 years since it was done, are they exempt from it being done wrong if it was that far back or if they caused damage?



If I am to put up steels, I should have them bolted up there? Id have thought some kind of bracket bolted up and the steels rested and connected to it would have been the way to do it? do I need a party wall agreement for that? can my neighbour oppose that?


I have always been a bit concerned about their attic conversion structurally and now wonder if I get my own, I wouldnt want any steel I put up there to be directly opposite theirs, in case it highlights any weakness or to apparently cause damage, where it only highlights damage they already created.
Its unlikely they will allow me have an engineer look around on their side to check even if its for me getting an attic conversion, as their side will be covered up.