Main dealer issue

Irishder

Hi,
I would appreciate some views on this. Just before christmas i got an abs sensor changed in my 11 Passat CC. Done by the man dealer cost 180.

Over christmas i noticed a few issues that i thought could be related:

- Automatic Start/Stop stopped working
- Sat nav kept losing itself

I rang the dealer in early jan and described the problems and was told that it was noting to do with the abs sensor and it would cost me 60 for a diagnostic. I gave out abit and he told me he would ring me back. He never did.

This week i needed front and rear pads and disks replaced. Dealer quoted 680 so rang around and a local garage said he would do it for 400 using bremo parts.

Yesterday the cars handbrake would not disengage had to ring a tow truck to bring it into the garage that was going to do the breaks.

Upon removing the wheel he said the brake caliper came lose and messed everything up. See pics attached.

My question is as far as i am aware the caliper need to be removed to fit the abs sensor. I am assuming it was not put back on correctly.

Do i have any comeback with the main dealer? I will mail him pictures etc of the damage and see what he says. Is it worth going down the small claims route?

Apologies for the long winded post!

Toyotafanboi

I suppose, ask yourself, how could the replacement of an ABS sensor somehow cause your sat nav to stop working?

IIRC, you don't need to remove the caliper to replace a rear ABS sensor on a Passat of that era, it's held in by a single allen bolt accessible from behind.

rex-x

Is that the same wheel the abs sensor was replaced on?

Irishder

Yes same wheel. My understanding is the abs sensor gathers speed info for sat nav. Could be wrong

Irishder

Irishder wrote: »

Yes same wheel. My understanding is the abs sensor gathers speed info for sat nav. Could be wrong

yes you are wrong,
Failing battery usually causes the start/stop to not function.

rex-x

It is possible that they removed the caliper if the sensor was being stubborn but I think you may have a hard time proving anything unfortunately.

Irishder

rex-x wrote: »

It is possible that they removed the caliper if the sensor was being stubborn but I think you may have a hard time proving anything unfortunately.

Yeah thats my feeling too. however bit of a coincidence that it was grand for 8 years then came loose a week after they replaced an abs sensor

rex-x

Irishder wrote: »

Yeah thats my feeling too. however bit of a coincidence that it was grand for 8 years then came loose a week after they replaced an abs sensor

There is no harm in putting it to them (nicely) and showing pics etc

kirving

BrownFinger wrote: »

yes you are wrong,
Failing battery usually causes the start/stop to not function.

What feature of the Sat Nav stopped working? Cars absolutely can used a combination of satellites and dead reckoning to determine their location to augment the accuracy of satellite localisation which is limited in some cases.

I don't know about a Passat specifically, but it's certainly possible.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_reckoning#Automotive_navigation

w211

The brake disc are almost gone. The rest of story are just speculative and my experience. That kind of errors can happens if cable harness brackets are not installed or broke. Sometimes manufacturer make a bad job and slightly different mounting can cause the serious problems. Or just the aftermarket parts brackets can be slightly on wrong place. Check the worked area and try to find some kind abnormal. Some aftermarket parts can be faulty and mess with ECU. It is always hard to repair the repaired car. Ok the next part should be the first but I leave it to here. How they diagnosed the faulty ABS sensor? If only by obd2 scan tool, this is wrong diagnosing method. Anything between ECU and the sensor could generate that error. That is why Irish car owner pays load of money for guessing. Mechanics need to diagnose everything properly, not follow the scanner suggestions. 1 error code can have a many different causes, not only 1.

Stallingrad

The sensor has nothing to do with your sat nav and S/S AFAIK.

VW wanted €500 when mine failed as they wanted to fit a new hub as well. The hub was 100% so got it done for €100 at an indie.

However brake calipers don't just come loose, and if that was the wheel that has the new sensor fitted recently that would be a very unlikely co-incidence. I would certainly kick up about it.

Irishder

Stallingrad wrote: »

The sensor has nothing to do with your sat nav and S/S AFAIK.

VW wanted €500 when mine failed as they wanted to fit a new hub as well. The hub was 100% so got it done for €100 at an indie.

However brake calipers don't just come loose, and if that was the wheel that has the new sensor fitted recently that would be a very unlikely co-incidence. I would certainly kick up about it.

Yep that's the wheel that got the replacement abs

Irishder

Kevin Irving wrote: »

BrownFinger wrote: »

yes you are wrong,
Failing battery usually causes the start/stop to not function.

What feature of the Sat Nav stopped working? Cars absolutely can used a combination of satellites and dead reckoning to determine their location to augment the accuracy of satellite localisation which is limited in some cases.

I don't know about a Passat specifically, but it's certainly possible.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_reckoning#Automotive_navigation

Car was showing but not on a road or way off

w211

Stallingrad wrote: »

The sensor has nothing to do with your sat nav and S/S AFAIK.

VW wanted €500 when mine failed as they wanted to fit a new hub as well. The hub was 100% so got it done for €100 at an indie.

However brake calipers don't just come loose, and if that was the wheel that has the new sensor fitted recently that would be a very unlikely co-incidence. I would certainly kick up about it.

Are you 100% sure? The cable harness and the fuse box can be shared. There are so many other shared things, so never say ever.

Toyotafanboi

w211 wrote: »

Are you 100% sure? The cable harness and the fuse box can be shared. There are so many other shared things, so never say ever.

Never say never, absolutely.

Lets not over complicate it either though, which will make things harder for the OP.

This model Passat eats rear wheel speed sensors for breakfast. The chances of it not being the sensor are (possible, but) relatively slim in reality. I'd actually frown more upon a technician who buried hours into wiring checks and readings due to a rear ABS sensor fault on one of these that one who fits a sensor immediately, even if only as part of the fault finding process.

Replacing those sensors is absolutely bread and butter stuff for a VW dealer and for any busy independent workshop too. The chances of a part falling off, that doesn't need to be removed to fit the sensor, being related to the sensor fitting seem very unlikely.

Personally, I think there's more to this story. OP, did VW say you needed pads and discs all round or how did you come to that conclusion? Did anyone else inspect the vehicle between VW doing the sensor and the tow away for the handbrake fault?

kirving

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

Never say never, absolutely.

Lets not over complicate it either though, which will make things harder for the OP.

This model Passat eats rear wheel speed sensors for breakfast. The chances of it not being the sensor are (possible, but) relatively slim in reality. I'd actually frown more upon a technician who buried hours into wiring checks and readings due to a rear ABS sensor fault on one of these that one who fits a sensor immediately, even if only as part of the fault finding process.

Agreed, while some see it as blindly following the computer, swapping out the sensor for a known good one is a cost effective solution when compared to the mechanics time invested to make 100% it is the sensor before replacing.

w211

I agree. That test is so simple, even the amateur can make that test (after the training and by special equipment). The proper diagnosing are important because it can save customer time and money. 1st labor cost and 2nd the ordering the new part (what may be the car does not need at all). The guessing cost money and load of money. Find a mechanic for the life and use only his service. By that way he knows the full story and you too. Do you know how bad is to repair the "repaired" car? There can be more trouble than you can imagine.

CalamariFritti

Your sat nav is entirely satellite based both in terms of location as well as movement. So thats definitely not related.

As far as the calliper is concerned its an unlikely coincidence. Once had an ABS sensor that needed to be practically drilled out of the hub is was that stubborn. So its feasible they had to take the calliper off or more to get better at the thing. But how would you prove it I don't know. It's quite likely they would deny anything and everything if they felt you expect them to assume responsibility for something.

Tbh with a 2011 car I'd never go to the main dealer. You're paying exorbitant hourly rates and you're less likely to get quality work than you would get from an indy you can trust. My indy for example knows me well and know him. He wants my custom and he wants to keep it. I believe he's honest and straight up and he's not done anything other than quality work for me.

I may be wrong but at a mean dealer I feel its more likely that you're just a number in a line and that it gets rushed and god knows who does the work. More often than not its not an experienced guy but you will be charged top rate no matter what.

w211

Irishder, please give to me your car vin number. I try to understand what goes wrong and why. Yes it is almost mission impossible because it may not related problems at all. Sure I should ask it on first time.

Toyotafanboi

CalamariFritti wrote: »

I may be wrong but at a mean dealer I feel its more likely that you're just a number in a line and that it gets rushed and god knows who does the work. More often than not its not an experienced guy but you will be charged top rate no matter what.

That's a very big brush your tarring with.

CalamariFritti

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

That's a very big brush your tarring with.

True, fair enough, but I put a good few qualifiers into it. Not saying what I say is the truth it's how I feel from experience. I'm sure plenty of others had other experiences.

George Dalton

You don’t even need to remove the rear wheel to replace the wheel speed sensor on these Passats, let alone the brake caliper. So I don’t see how the main dealer could be responsible for what happened with the caliper.

Irishder

Thanks for the replies. The reason I thought you had to remove the caliper was because I saw that on a you tube video.

To answer some of the questions. No nothing was done since the main dealer changed the abs.

The handbrake was sticking before it failed completely that was the reason why I thought the pads and disks need to be changed.

As you can guess I'm not a mechanic and have very limited knowledge regarding cars.

Thanks for the replies

Avatar MIA

You cannot take a business to the small claims court.

Del2005

Avatar MIA wrote: »

You cannot take a business to the small claims court.

Of course you can.

Avatar MIA

Del2005 wrote: »

Of course you can.

My bad, thought you couldnt before.

CalamariFritti

Irishder wrote: »

Thanks for the replies. The reason I thought you had to remove the caliper was because I saw that on a you tube video.

To answer some of the questions. No nothing was done since the main dealer changed the abs.

The handbrake was sticking before it failed completely that was the reason why I thought the pads and disks need to be changed.

As you can guess I'm not a mechanic and have very limited knowledge regarding cars.

Thanks for the replies

The handbrake is usually not using the discs and pads, but is separate, often a simple drum brake at the rear.

I think there is a good chance it's just bad luck, coincidence. I get that a lot in my area of expertise, I work in IT and often I'm being recruited to fix friends and family's computers. Then of course when 3 weeks after they catch a virus or something else goes awry I'm listening to 'since you did xyz my computer isn't right'. Which is a right PITA cos not only see they IT work not as 'real work' and you never get anything offered in return, but it's implied that you now owe them for breaking the thing. :rolleyes:

rex-x

CalamariFritti wrote: »

The handbrake is usually not using the discs and pads, but is separate, often a simple drum brake at the rear.

I think there is a good chance it's just bad luck, coincidence. I get that a lot in my area of expertise, I work in IT and often I'm being recruited to fix friends and family's computers. Then of course when 3 weeks after they catch a virus or something else goes awry I'm listening to 'since you did xyz my computer isn't right'.

Most cars handbrakes do use the discs and pads, only a few makes employ the drum inside a disc approach, on a Passat they are always using the main caliper, electric in this case

porsche boy

Toyotafanboi wrote:

...I'd actually frown more upon a technician who buried hours into wiring checks and readings due to a rear ABS sensor fault on one of these that one who fits a sensor immediately, even if only as part of the fault finding process.

Would you be willing to pay for the part if it dosent fix the problem???
Can't return part once it's out of the bag etc.

kirving

First of all, I'm not saying for certain that the Sav Nav issue is related, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was.

OP, does the speedometer work correctly on the car?

CalamariFritti wrote: »

Your sat nav is entirely satellite based both in terms of location as well as movement. So thats definitely not related.

No, It's almost certainly not based entirely on satellite data only. Basically any GPS you can buy these days uses additional sensors to supplement the satellite data.

At minimum for an OEM installed unit this would include a digital compass, most likely also has access to accelerometer data (either internal or via the Stability Control system), and could very well include vehicle speed data.

All of this data is broadcast on the vehicle CAN bus (or similar) with a specific ID and can be accessed by any other device on the network. Self levelling lights for example will pull data from suspension height sensors, whereas they are usually feeding data to the ESC system.

Even this Garmin model from 2004 can be wired into the vehicle to aid it's accuracy in tunnels or high-rise cities.
https://static.garmincdn.com/pumac/StreetPilot2610GPS_OwnersManual.pdf

Rows Grower

porsche boy wrote: »

Would you be willing to pay for the part if it dosent fix the problem???
Can't return part once it's out of the bag etc.

Of course you can.

Eric Cartman

BrownFinger wrote: »

yes you are wrong,
Failing battery usually causes the start/stop to not function.

a lot of inbuilt systems use ABS sensors on the wheels for better positioning.

Irishder

Just to follow up on this:
- I contacted the garage this morning and as expected they said there is no need to touch the caliper to install an ABS sensor.

- So after talking to a couple of mechanics they said that is correct however they can be very hard to remove particularly the left hand side one. So in order to make it easier to remove the caliper is often removed as well.

- Looking at the picture i honestly think the caliper was moved to allow easier access to the abs sensor and was not moved back when the job was done.

I think i will go down the small claims court route, its just too much of a coincidence.

Thanks for all the advice.

w211

Before that please give to garage a chance to fix the problem. If they screwed up, typically they looking the solution too. If they do not care and blame you, go ahead.

bucketybuck

porsche boy wrote: »

Would you be willing to pay for the part if it dosent fix the problem???
Can't return part once it's out of the bag etc.

Bear in mind that sometimes replacing a part is not only advisable, but unavoidable if you actually want a proper diagnosis.

Say for example a fault relates to a particular sensor, say a fuel sensor. You test it as best you can and it appears ok, so you start looking deeper. Yet every hour you spend testing injectors or tracing wiring looms you will be wondering, "The fault points to that sensor, what if I'm getting some sort of false positive and it actually is faulty despite appearing ok?"

The sensor is €70, the hourly labour rate is €110p/h, maybe taking a chance and fitting that sensor straight off the bat saves you thousands of euro in time spent fault finding?

I've seen it a hundred times in fuel systems, where a faulty sensor or injector passes tests but was actually the fault all along. Or maybe it isn't, but from the customers point of view quite often it makes simple financial sense to take the chance and replace it anyway.

Rows Grower wrote: »

[/B]

Of course you can.

Not always, a lot of electrical items for example cannot be returned once programmed or even just fitted.

Irishder wrote: »

I think i will go down the small claims court route, its just too much of a coincidence.

Thanks for all the advice.

You are wasting your time in my opinion. They say they didn't remove the caliper, the caliper does not need to be removed to do the job, how exactly are you going to demonstrate that they did in fact both remove the part and then also refit it incorrectly? What is your case here?

bucketybuck

CalamariFritti wrote: »

I think there is a good chance it's just bad luck, coincidence. I get that a lot in my area of expertise, I work in IT and often I'm being recruited to fix friends and family's computers. Then of course when 3 weeks after they catch a virus or something else goes awry I'm listening to 'since you did xyz my computer isn't right'. Which is a right PITA cos not only see they IT work not as 'real work' and you never get anything offered in return, but it's implied that you now owe them for breaking the thing. :rolleyes:

This is ubiquitous in the motor industry. Fix a fuel fault, 3 weeks later an engine management light comes on the dash and automatically that becomes the garages fault. The fact the second fault is for the adblue system is irrelevant, the garage was working at it so any faults that happen in the next year or so become their fault.

Even apart from the totally unconnected faults, there will be a lot of cases where a garage could for example replace a genuinely faulty sensor, clear the fault, and then a week later the same fault comes on again. Why? Because the mechanic jostled a wiring loom and a wire that was already corroded now breaks the first time the vehicle goes over a speedbump. The mechanics fault.

Mechanics can make mistakes and comeback is a thing that needs to be handled, but its unbelievably common that correctly doing one job can lead to a different fault raising its head, like replacing a faulty ABS sensor and then getting tons of ABS faults because the sensor is now doing its job properly and telling you about the other problems that are there!

w211

You are right. The old plastic parts like the electric connectors/brackets/what ever parts can be brittle. To find the electrical issue, the mechanics should not open the connectors first and then probe. It is possible to back probe the connectors when connectors are plugged. Only that way are possible to find that kind ghosts. If you open the connector then that opening can clean/adjust the connector just so much to keep problems away for next 1-3 weeks. On many cases the connector can be faulty even if it looks shiny and clean. The white type of corrosion or the bent single wire connector locking can case the problems what are hard to trace if connector are opened even once.