Grant for second hand EV/hybrid?

R11

Myself and my wife both need new(used) cars this year. Was thinking of possibly having one decent diesel as she does a lot of driving and we have family down south that we visit regularly. My daily commute is about 75km,weekend driving around town and the odd spin up to Dublin which is just under 200km return trip.Probably average around 18,000km per year. Have 2 kids aged 6 and 4 so need room for car seats and a decent boot size



So,first question-would my driving suit an EV or hybrid.No charge point in work so would have to be charge at home each night which is not a big issue(I hope!)


Secondly,my budget for a car is about €15,000(whether I go EV or not).Had a quick look online and I might be able to get a 2015 Leaf 24kwh for that.Is the Leaf most suitable for someone like me who likes a bit of room?Is there a grant for second hand electric cars?If so,I might be able to get a 2016 EV.

Gile_na_gile

Grants are only in place for new cars, not the second-hand market. Since you need two cars, a diesel and an EV are a good mix, using the latter for all the runabout trips close to home and your commute. Your budget will only cover you for a 24kWH Leaf, or a similar Zoe, but you could also consider range-extender hybrids like the Opel Ampera / Chevy Volt (I find the front is too low for Irish suburban speed bumps).

You would need a Leaf with a decent state of health on the battery to ensure you can do a 80-90km journey in winter, when allowing for detours and similar. The Leaf 1.5 / 1.0 is spacious, yes, for an earlier electric car. There is also the UK import route or dealers like ElectricAuto which specialise in them. Join the EV forum for buying and selling on Facebook, as it helps to buy directly from an EV driver. Average dealers don't know a whole lot about them in general, with the exception of Nissan dealers (yet EV drivers always know more).

You can get €600 grant for a home charger from the SEAI once you have the car in your name, plus 120 motor tax (it used to be zero ).

R11

Thanks for the advice. I'll have a look around.
I'm between two minds whether EV is an option for me. I currently have a diesel,is there much of a saving to switch to a Leaf? Would 24kwh be too small for me?And how would I check battery life if I was interested?

ELM327

R11 wrote: »

My budget for a car is about €15,000(whether I go EV or not).

How is your budget 15k whether or not it's an EV.
Have you factored in the ongoing delta in running costs?

KCross

R11 wrote: »

Secondly,my budget for a car is about €15,000(whether I go EV or not).Had a quick look online and I might be able to get a 2015 Leaf 24kwh for that.Is the Leaf most suitable for someone like me who likes a bit of room?Is there a grant for second hand electric cars?If so,I might be able to get a 2016 EV.

I think you should manage to get a 161 Leaf 30kWh for that budget. Take your time and find one (maybe in the UK). That extra bit of range over the 24kWh will be worth it.

However, the 24kWh will manage your commute too since its only 75km.

BMW i3 is a 4 seater, consider one of those too. And also the eGolf. Both of those might be a bit harder to find with your budget, but possible.

R11

ELM327 wrote: »

How is your budget 15k whether or not it's an EV.
Have you factored in the ongoing delta in running costs?

€15k is my budget as thats all I can get from the credit union....already have a loan with them
What are the "ongoing delta in running costs"???I know nothing about EV cars ,I'm only looking into them now..

slave1

You should deffo look to a Leaf 30, there will be no VRT to pay if you bring one in from the North/UK and you should get one at that budget.

I believe the ongoing delta comment is that you will have much less service and maintenance costs EV V's Diesel, e.g. service for a Leaf is €76 without pollen filter replacement, compare that to your diesel service costs which you well know by now.
Also, parts etc are much less in an EV so less chance of replacement or issues like emissions/gearbox etc. I mean there's literally no engine to contend with in a EV as its a single sealed motor which is pretty much bulletproof.

There's a recent thread on EV cost savings you should also look at but you will certainly be looking at around the €1.5k minimum savings a year in fuel/tax/maintenance costs

unkel

R11 wrote: »

Secondly,my budget for a car is about €15,000(whether I go EV or not).Had a quick look online and I might be able to get a 2015 Leaf 24kwh for that.

Whatever you do, €15k for a 2015 Leaf 24kWh is a poor proposition. You should be able to get a 2016 30kWh Leaf for about that, a touch more maybe

I would either keep a chunk of your budget and go for a 2015 Leaf 24kWh for about €9k upwards, or save a bit more and find a second hand Ioniq or Leaf 40kWh from about €23k

And as ELM427 said, you need to look a bit beyond the rigid €15k figure you have in your head. Buy a diesel with that and start spending lots of money every month on diesel, tax, maintenance, tolls, etc. Buy an EV and you will spend only a fraction of that. And even if €15k is the max you can borrow, nobody is forcing you to buy now. Save a bit more to get a better car, or borrow a bit less and don't stretch yourself to the limit.

Gumbo

R11 wrote: »

€15k is my budget as thats all I can get from the credit union....already have a loan with them
What are the "ongoing delta in running costs"???I know nothing about EV cars ,I'm only looking into them now..

If you spend 15k on a diesel car, your ongoing costs are diesel, tax, insurance, servicing
If you spend 15k on an EV, those ongoing costs will be greatly reduced.

R11

Ok,thanks.
I forgot to add-most of my commute is on motorway. So would a 24kwh be unsuitable for this?

Gumbo

R11 wrote: »

Ok,thanks.
I forgot to add-most of my commute is on motorway. So would a 24kwh be unsuitable for this?

Depend son the distance and speed.
I have 2014 24kWh Leaf.

If I drive at 100kmph, I get 1km per % used. So that's my benchmark for motorway driving. Faster = less distance, slower = more distance.

KCross

R11 wrote: »

Ok,thanks.
I forgot to add-most of my commute is on motorway. So would a 24kwh be unsuitable for this?

All the more reason to go for the 30kWh.
The 24kWh would probably still be OK but in worst conditions and if you drive it at 120km/h it might not so it depends on you really. Look at a 30kWh and take the guessing out of it. You'll thank yourself!

R11

kceire wrote: »

Depend son the distance and speed.
I have 2014 24kWh Leaf.

If I drive at 100kmph, I get 1km per % used. So that's my benchmark for motorway driving. Faster = less distance, slower = more distance.

So,driving at 100km,would a 75km commute use up 75% of your battery??Sorry about the daft questions but I'm new to all this....

unkel

Yeah, that would be a good and fairly safe rule of thumb. No need to spend €16k on a 30kWh 2016 Leaf when €9k for a 24kWh 2014 Leaf will be fine for that commute, even on a bad day in winter.

R11

unkel wrote: »

Yeah, that would be a good and fairly safe rule of thumb. No need to spend €16k on a 30kWh 2016 Leaf when €9k for a 24kWh 2014 Leaf will be fine for that commute, even on a bad day in winter.

Ok. Wheres best to look for second hand Leafs?Done deal?Carzone?Any decent UK sites I could look at? seeing as theres no VRT.

KCross

unkel wrote: »

Yeah, that would be a good and fairly safe rule of thumb. No need to spend €16k on a 30kWh 2016 Leaf when €9k for a 24kWh 2014 Leaf will be fine for that commute, even on a bad day in winter.

You are encouraging him to drive at Leaf speed on the motorway?!!

Bad advice, imo, unless he already drives at that speed anyway. I dont think you'd make that decision for yourself... would you?

R11

KCross wrote: »

You are encouraging him to drive at Leaf speed on the motorway?!!

Bad advice, imo, unless he already drives at that speed anyway. I dont think you'd make that decision for yourself... would you?

Yeh,I do tend to sit at 120km on motorway.So maybe EV is not for me....what about hybrid?Would they be an option?Much of a cost saving?

KCross

R11 wrote: »

Yeh,I do tend to sit at 120km on motorway.So maybe EV is not for me....what about hybrid?Would they be an option?Much of a cost saving?

No, what I'm saying is that the 24kWh at 120km/h is a tight fit for your commute in the worst conditions of winter.

A 30kWh is more suitable.

EV will be much better than hybrid for your commute.

unkel

KCross wrote: »

Bad advice, imo, unless he already drives at that speed anyway. I dont think you'd make that decision for yourself... would you?

If it meant I didn't have to spend €16k that I didn't have, to buy a car I didn't need at all for 360 days of the year, I sure would make that decision for myself and slow down a bit on those 5 days...

KCross

unkel wrote: »

If it meant I didn't have to spend €16k that I didn't have, to buy a car I didn't need at all for 360 days of the year, I sure would make that decision for myself and slow down a bit on those 5 days...

Its his daily commute... not 5 days a year.

unkel

KCross wrote: »

Its his daily commute... not 5 days a year.

My point must have escaped you completely

He will be able to do his 75km commute at 120km/h in Leaf 24kWh apart from maybe the 5 coldest / wettest / windiest days of the year...

KCross

unkel wrote: »

My point must have escaped you completely

Yes, I misunderstood your reference to 5 days alright!

unkel wrote: »

He will be able to do his 75km commute at 120km/h in Leaf 24kWh apart from maybe the 5 coldest / wettest / windiest days of the year...

However, it wouldnt be down to just 5 days a year.

He said most of his commute is on motorway.
Half my 60km commute is 120km/h and I would have ~30% left in good weather.... now increase that to 75km with "most" being at 120km/h and I dont think the 24kWh is suitable at all.... who wants to be arriving home with "---" on the dash each day. There would be very little, if any, headroom in that commute in an L24 particularly as well since it would be close to 15% capacity loss at this stage.

The L24 is not suitable for his scenario unless he slows down on a regular basis. It would be a compromise too far in my book.

L30's should be well within his budget (they were, but admittedly I havent looked lately).
The L30 would also work for his occasional Dublin trip assuming destination charging was available. The L24 less so, again, presumably because it would be at motorway speed... the L24 wont make that trip.

unkel

So you're saying you can barely do 75km comfortably at 120km/h in the newer gen Leaf 24kWh with a good battery (12 bars)?

Christ, didn't know the range was that bad...

KCross

unkel wrote: »

So you're saying you can barely do 75km comfortably at 120km/h in the newer gen Leaf 24kWh with a good battery (12 bars)?

Christ, didn't know the range was that bad...

It might manage it, but it would be very tight.

An L24 would have ~20kWh usable at this stage. You're probably comparing to a new 28kWh Ioniq. Big difference.

ELM327

unkel wrote: »

So you're saying you can barely do 75km comfortably at 120km/h in the newer gen Leaf 24kWh with a good battery (12 bars)?

Christ, didn't know the range was that bad...

As someone who had one, yeah it is that bad.
Will not do 120km/h for 100km.

Gumbo

R11 wrote: »

what about hybrid?Would they be an option?Much of a cost saving?

You'll be using the petrol engine. Better to stick with what you have.

R11

kceire wrote: »

You'll be using the petrol engine. Better to stick with what you have.

Yeh, looks like L24 definitely not for me at this stage. Not even sure an L30 would suit either as I would still do some short town driving after work on some evenings. Is there a second hand EV with a better range around the €15k mark? Or will I just stick with diesel for now and wait for improvements in battery /range /charge points etc? As I said I'm new to this, am tempted by EV but not sure if it'll suit me, and my budget, currently.

KCross

R11 wrote: »

Yeh, looks like L24 definitely not for me at this stage. Not even sure an L30 would suit either as I would still do some short town driving after work on some evenings. Is there a second hand EV with a better range around the €15k mark? Or will I just stick with diesel for now and wait for improvements in battery /range /charge points etc? As I said I'm new to this, am tempted by EV but not sure if it'll suit me, and my budget, currently.

The L30 will be fine for your commute and some tootling around in the evening.

Mickeroo

R11 wrote: »

Yeh, looks like L24 definitely not for me at this stage. Not even sure an L30 would suit either as I would still do some short town driving after work on some evenings. Is there a second hand EV with a better range around the €15k mark? Or will I just stick with diesel for now and wait for improvements in battery /range /charge points etc? As I said I'm new to this, am tempted by EV but not sure if it'll suit me, and my budget, currently.

Would you get much of a trade in on your current car? An ioniq would probably suit you but even 2nd hand they seem to be going around the 25k mark.

R11

KCross wrote: »

The L30 will be fine for your commute and some tootling around in the evening.

Even after driving at 120kmph on mostly motorway for the guts of 75km a day? I'd just be nervous that battery would run out on me! The idea of an EV appeals to me, the cost savings appeal to me... But the practicalities of it and the "range anxiety" are less appealing. But I suppose, like anything it'll require getting used to and changing old habits.

ELM327

Mickeroo wrote: »

Would you get much of a trade in on your current car? An ioniq would probably suit you but even 2nd hand they seem to be going around the 25k mark.

I know of a black (full BEV version) one coming up shortly for a little less than that.
Friend of mine getting a Kona and wants to sell his Ioniq first.

R11

Mickeroo wrote: »

Would you get much of a trade in on your current car? An ioniq would probably suit you but even 2nd hand they seem to be going around the 25k mark.

Are they hybrid or electric? Better range? There's 2 on usedcarsni but not sure if they're full electric.. They're about 18k euro I think

Mickeroo

R11 wrote: »

Are they hybrid or electric? Better range? There's 2 on usedcarsni but not sure if they're full electric.. They're about 18k euro I think

There's a hybrid version and an electric. If it has a regular front grill it's the hybrid.

These are electric:

https://www.donedeal.ie/cars-for-sal...-drop/20757337
https://www.donedeal.ie/cars-for-sal...ctric/20826899
https://www.donedeal.ie/cars-for-sal...-week/20757639

KCross

R11 wrote: »

Even after driving at 120kmph on mostly motorway for the guts of 75km a day? I'd just be nervous that battery would run out on me! The idea of an EV appeals to me, the cost savings appeal to me... But the practicalities of it and the "range anxiety" are less appealing. But I suppose, like anything it'll require getting used to and changing old habits.

Yes, it would be fine.
The 24kWh is just too close for comfort. The 30kWh gives you what you need within budget.

Most other options are beyond your budget so unless you are willing to up the budget you dont have that much to choose from.

uck51js9zml2yt

kceire wrote: »

You'll be using the petrol engine. Better to stick with what you have.

Surely the battery in the hybrid would take up most of the driving costs?

Considering one myself instead of a pure EV (80km per day commute)

Gumbo

Landry Alive Statistics wrote: »

Surely the battery in the hybrid would take up most of the driving costs?

Considering one myself instead of a pure EV (80km per day commute)

Not at 120kmph on a motorway for 75km.

optimal

KCross wrote: »

Yes, it would be fine.
The 24kWh is just too close for comfort. The 30kWh gives you what you need within budget.

Most other options are beyond your budget so unless you are willing to up the budget you dont have that much to choose from.

There is no way a 24kWh Leaf will do this with any comfort. You cannot work on the basis of he longest leg of your journey being just within the range of the car. You don’t know what could go wrong, diversions, having to search for a charger or really bad wet and windy weather. I drive a 30kwh Leaf and while my daily commute is about 50km I often go to Dublin which is 200km round trip. At this time on a cold night it will take me 65 -70% traveling north east to Dublin and an additional 10% on way home. At Leaf speed with air con and heated seat (I like my comfort).
Going at Leaf speed doesn’t really impact time as there is only motorway from kilcullen exit.
For nightly charging I try to keep to about 80% to help the battery, another thing you won’t be able to do with a 24 kWh.

Gile_na_gile

As KCross said, an L30 meets your needs and budget (Unkel), but you will have to shop around quite a bit to find one since they were generally selling for 18k recently having gone up in price... That said, 18k for electric is like 15k for diesel given the savings over a few years, low service costs, and low tax band.


The learning curve seems high at start, but it's proven technology as long as you get the range you need at a price you can afford.

R11

Yes,finding it hard to get a low mileage L30 for even 18k. Is there better value in the UK? What UK sites could I search?

KCross

R11 wrote: »

Yes,finding it hard to get a low mileage L30 for even 18k. Is there better value in the UK? What UK sites could I search?

autotrader.co.uk
motors.co.uk

You should be able to get a 30kWh for around £14k
https://www.motors.co.uk/car-51941567

slave1

R11 wrote: »

Yes,finding it hard to get a low mileage L30 for even 18k. Is there better value in the UK? What UK sites could I search?

Mileage is largely irrelevant when it comes the EV, age is more a determining factor...

Search Autotrader, here's a 2016 Leaf with 6.6charging and asking £13.5k

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201812193376965?body-type=Hatchback&year-from=2016&radius=1500&make=NISSAN&sort=price-asc&model=LEAF&minimum-mileage=500&postcode=sw1a1aa&onesearchad=Used&onesearchad=Nearly%20New&advertising-location=at_cars&colour=Bronze&colour=Grey&colour=Red&colour=White&page=1

R11

Thanks.
Is there any other good Northern Ireland sites apart from usedcarsni.com?

slave1

R11 wrote: »

Thanks.
Is there any other good Northern Ireland sites apart from usedcarsni.com?

Yeah, you can slim Autotrader to just NI when you put in a NI postcode, unfortunately some mainland UK advertisers post on the NI only section also but you can visually slim them out

R11

Possibly a silly question but- if I were to buy a second hand Leaf in UK, then drive to, say, Holyhead. If that's a 3 or 4 hour drive, then how do I pay for to get it recharged along the way? Plus, will it not take me ages to eventually get home?? All that charging!

ewj1978

yep, or you could get someone to deliver it for a flat fee.

R11

Had a closer look at my driving. My return commute is 65km with only half of that on a motorway, thought it was more. The rest is on secondary roads doing 80 to 100kmph with only about 3km town driving.
Did my Maths and the most I can afford from the credit union is €12k. I've been offered around €4500-€5000 as a trade in for my car against another diesel. So if I try sell mine privately for €5k, I might have €17k... Although my car is a fluence, not sure if there's great demand privately for it.
A small dealer in Dublin offered me €4500(without seeing it) against a 2016 Leaf 30kwh Tekna, low mileage... But he's looking for €17450 which is a bit much for me.
Spotted a nice Skoda superb up north but would have to sell mine privately to buy it..
As I said previously, I would like to go electric but the lack of range worries me, not on my commute but on my occasional trips up to Dublin (200km return journey). And I can't see my budget stretching to an Ioniq so maybe it's diesel for me for another few years.... What you think?

KCross

R11 wrote: »

Had a closer look at my driving. My return commute is 65km with only half of that on a motorway, thought it was more. The rest is on secondary roads doing 80 to 100kmph with only about 3km town driving.

With that updated info I think you are back in L24 territory which makes the purchase much easier for you financially.

At 65km and half on motorway you are almost identical to me. I drive at full motorway speed and I have plenty to spare even in winter.

Buy a 132 or later L24 and it will do you fine.

It wont cover your 100km Dublin trip unless you are willing to sacrifice speed but you said you have a second car in the house so just use that if you dont want to compromise on the Dublin trip.

Best advice I can give is get an L24 on a 24hr test drive and drive your commute and then you'll know where you stand.

R11

KCross wrote: »

Best advice I can give is get an L24 on a 24hr test drive and drive your commute and then you'll know where you stand.

But can I get a 4 or 5 year old leaf on a test drive?
Out of curiosity, why are you suggesting an older leaf? Would there not be a higher chance of weak battery? Plus I wouldn't be trading up for another 4 or 5 years so I'd have a 10 year old Leaf by then. Just thinking of resale value..

KCross

R11 wrote: »

But can I get a 4 or 5 year old leaf on a test drive?

No reason why you cant get a test drive. If the dealer has one for sale why wouldnt he loan it out to someone thats flashing the cash.

If you're up for it you'd be better off selling the fluence privately at your leisure and then go to the UK for the EV.

R11 wrote: »

Out of curiosity, why are you suggesting an older leaf?

Budget. Its alot cheaper. The L30 only came out in 161.
An L30 is a better car simply because its newer and has more range but its putting you under more financial pressure and with the new figures you've posted you dont actually need the longer range.

R11 wrote: »

Would there not be a higher chance of weak battery? Plus I wouldn't be trading up for another 4 or 5 years so I'd have a 10 year old Leaf by then. Just thinking of resale value..

Simple facts are that the older you buy the more degraded the battery will be but if you stick to a 132+ you will have the better battery and it will do you fine for the 5 years.

A 10 year old car will have naturally depreciated anyway and you will already have avoided most of the depreciation by buying an older car anyway.... its swings and roundabouts.

You cant limit your budget and then say you want a newer car!