Fir trees dying

blackbox

Has anyone else got fir trees dying?
I have a row of silver/Noble firs that are dying in sequence. Trees about 30 years old.
It's not from drought as it started before last summer.
I suspect that something is rotting the roots and spreading from tree to tree.
It's not too much of a problem for me as I will only be burning them but would be a disaster in a commercial forest.

PS my Ash trees are still fine.

00wyk

blackbox wrote: »

Has anyone else got fir trees dying?
I have a row of silver/Noble firs that are dying in sequence. Trees about 30 years old.
It's not from drought as it started before last summer.
I suspect that something is rotting the roots and spreading from tree to tree.
It's not too much of a problem for me as I will only be burning them but would be a disaster in a commercial forest.

PS my Ash trees are still fine.

Do you have any photos of these trees? Are there any outwards signs of fungus or weeping? What signs are you seeing on them(crown die back, conches, weeping, etc)The states currently have a phillinus wareii issue, but that is limited to the west coast. Did you bring these trees in from the states? One way to tell is to go to a few stricken trees, dig out as deep as you can by one of the roots/buttresses by hand(we usually use pullasky axes/firemans axes), and carve up a bit of the root. Another way is to fell a few and check their sapwood for fungus. I'll see if I can attach a site that has more information:

Oh dear. I'm a new user and can't post URLs. I would do a search for 'laminated root rot'.

blackbox

The dieback is firstly visible in the top of the trees.

There are some boreholes (insects?) in the trunks approx 6-8 mm, but these could have happened after disease set in.

Trees were established before I moved in but I have no reason to think they came from America.

Trees are definitely rotten at base after falling. No large/visible fungus fruiting bodies. Some trees have snapped approx 3 metres from ground rather than uprooted.

my3cents

Never heard of it here in conifers but afaik in the US phytophthora can cause the problem you are on about. It certainly spreads from one plant to another so you can see it moving through a plantation. My experience with it is only in a garden situation. Google it for yourself but some info here https://catalog.extension.oregonstate.edu/sites/catalog/files/project/supplemental/pnw659/pnw659.pdf

blackbox

I did that search for laminated root rot and there are certainly a lot of similarities. I'll try to get some pictures soon.

00wyk

blackbox wrote: »

I did that search for laminated root rot and there are certainly a lot of similarities. I'll try to get some pictures soon.

The firs breaking at the lower part of the trunk is also a sign of phellinus weirii, and that it is well in advanced stages. With last nights winds, you may find more down now. You should be able to go up to where they've broken and see how, instead of what looks like wood, it will look very fibrous, as though the cellular structure has been drained like a rung out wet rag, and it will crumble in the hands. I hope this isn't phellinus weirii, because this is a very bad and insidious pathogen we thought was limited to the pacific north west, and all firs are susceptible to it, as well as Douglas Firs, Western Larch, Hemlock(often called Oregon Pine in Europe), AKA Tsuga, and a fair few other conifers.

What we did on plantations or forests were to clear cut the trees in a wide margin after surveys showed crown die backs usually in a circular fashion, and ground cruising showed clear signs. The last survey I took part in in Washington State showed it seemed to prefer Douglas Firs and other true Firs most. I rarely found it in any other stands consisting of Hemlock, Cedar, Pine, etc. I was only on the surveying teams, so I can't say exactly how they handled the timber after it hit the ground. I just hope this isn't what it is, and am awaiting your photos. It just seems unlikely it would occur somewhere in Ireland(where I've moved to since I worked in the PNW a few years back). That is, unless your saplings are from the PNW recently(and depending on what sort of fir they are - they may have had to come from north america at some point). If they are 30 years as you say, and those saplings came from the US, they could definitely harbour the disease. And this should be looked in to ASAP. The good news is native deciduous trees are immune. Though I do not know whether asian or european larches have any immunity. Stateside, the western larch is susceptible.

blackbox

Standing Remains




Cross-section near base



Break point upper

00wyk

What do the roots look like? And do they easily crumble. This is one of the recent blow downs is it?

BarryD2

Maybe you should be contacting a local commercial forestry company and/or Coillte to get advice. Assuming this is Ireland you're in, there might be some understandable concern??

blackbox

The visible roots of the recently fallen tree(s) are very small - i.e. they broke.
They are not totally crumbly like a tree that has lain on the ground for years (if they were that weak I guess they would have fallen sooner!)
The break point in the third picture is what broke off the leftmost tree in the first picture.
The cross section picture is of a tree that came down at the roots. It appears to be closer to forty years than thirty.
This is an isolated stand of trees surrounding my garden, so there is no real risk of anything spreading by roots to commercial forestry.
For info, I am based in Co. Wicklow - the location information that was below the signature has been removed by Boards for everyone.

00wyk

If the roots are not obviously compromised, it's unlikely to be Wereii. It's most likely wageneri looking at the photos. The stain in the wood appears to be purplish/indigo, right? That is typical of wageneri. If it is bluish it might blue stain or sap stain - very common. If you search on the US Forest service pages, or simply put in 'US Forest Service Black Stain Root Disease' or blue stain etc., it will show you some diagnostics and treatment. I panicked when I saw the 'dying in sequence' part of your original post. It is a strong sign of wereii.

blackbox

I would describe the stain as brown (maybe black/brown) rather than purple or blue.

The disease is definitely moving in sequence along the row of trees. You can see the third tree in the picture is nearly dead but the fourth isn't too bad. Beyond that they look pretty OK. There were other trees (now gone) to the left.

blackbox

I looked up about "wageneri" and it refers to beetles in the roots.
I mentioned earlier that there are significant insect boreholes, but these are well above ground level. There is no resin leakage at the boreholes, so I suspect the tree was already sick or dead when they occurred.

00wyk

Did you manage get someone to look in to the issue?

blackbox

00wyk wrote: »

Did you manage get someone to look in to the issue?

No. I didn't think they were worth it so I just gave up on them. Disease is still moving along the row.

I see my old pictures have disappeared!