Solicitor Fees - Over Charged ?

chesby

Hi Folks,

Just looking for some advice on the below
I'm in the final stage of buying a property and have just received the Costs from my Solicitor .All Prices Below Include VAT .

First I received two itemized Bills.
Purchase of Property

Professional Fees €2,100 Miscellaneous Fees €123 Commissioners Fees €20 Law Searchers €175 Registry of Deed Fees On Deeds €50

Application To Property Registration Authority for First Registration

Professional Fees €553 Miscellaneous Fees €90 Commissioners Fees €20 Law Searchers €100 Registry of Deed Fees On Deeds €50 Property Registration Authority Fee On Application €130 Property Registration Authority Fee On Application €175 Copy Folio €40

Does the Above Seem Correct ? . This is in Limerick on a standard 10 year old house.
I have no problem withe the majority of the other Legal fees , But is it usual to receive two charges for Professional Fees Totaling €2650 ? .Likewise charged twice for miscellaneous fees ?

Cheers,

juke

Looks like you are buying a property that, up until now, has title deeds that are registered in the Registry of Deeds. They have to be registered in the Land Registry now.

Also looks like you are taking out a mortgage? Outlays breakdown looks a bit odd, it seems strange to me to divide it up, but different styles, I guess. My comments on what I think is going on below.

Purchase of Property
Professional Fees €2,100
Miscellaneous Fees €123
Commissioners Fees €20 For the mortgage
Law Searchers €175
Registry of Deed Fees On Deeds €50 Fees on transfer deed

Application To Property Registration Authority for First Registration Most solicitors would charge an additional fee for a first registration.
Professional Fees €553
Miscellaneous Fees €90
Commissioners Fees €20 Unnecessary on a form 3 First Registration
Law Searchers €100 ditto
Registry of Deed Fees On Deeds €50 Fees on mortgage deed
Property Registration Authority Fee On Application €130 Form 3 First Registration
Property Registration Authority Fee On Application €175 Unnecessary This would correlate with registration fees on a mortgage - but in a First Registration it's included in the price
Copy Folio €40

chesby

juke wrote: »

Looks like you are buying a property that, up until now, has title deeds that are registered in the Registry of Deeds. They have to be registered in the Land Registry now.

Also looks like you are taking out a mortgage? Outlays breakdown looks a bit odd, it seems strange to me to divide it up, but different styles, I guess. My comments on what I think is going on below.

Thanks for Your Thoughts Juke .Yes thats right , he is handling the Mortgage aspect also.
Do you think the Professional Fees are a bit on the steep Side ?
For Some reason I thought/Was expecting 1700-2000 including Vat based on searching around.
Bearing in Mind I also had to Pay Another Third party Solicitor an Additional €650 based on my own solicitors advise as he wanted to be certain on an one aspect of the property purchase (Review of Title/Deeds).

juke

I probably charge fees on the higher end of the scale - so I think the fees are about right. I know there's plenty solicitors that charge less.

HOWEVER, what were you quoted?

Note - I edited my post above. Your solicitor really needs to explain the outlays.

chesby

Ironically Enough , This was the one Solicitor That i didn't get a quote from . :rolleyes:
I had Rang around a few local places and they were Substantially less.
However a relative mentioned the above Solicitor as a "family friend" and said he would look after me , which he did say he would....:rolleyes:

If your saying these prices sound right , then i Guess Ill just put it down to a learning experience

caviardreams

I thought by law solicitors had to quote fees up front for conveyancing?

lawred2

Those professional fees are a tad high for conveyancing..

Not sure where you're based but our solicitor is half that for that work.

juke

caviardreams wrote: »

I thought by law solicitors had to quote fees up front for conveyancing?

They have to quote upfront for all work

chesby

lawred2 wrote: »

Those professional fees are a tad high for conveyancing..

Not sure where you're based but our solicitor is half that for that work.

Solicitor is Based in Cork .
Was that Recently out of curiosity ? .

chesby

juke wrote: »

They have to quote upfront for all work

No Quote Asked For by myself, and No quote Given by him at the beginning .
Does this leave me with much options ?
Obviously Im going to pay , It would just be nice to say , "You should have quoted me at the beginning ?!"

Wouldn't this just be a case of "Buyer Beware" on my part though (In terms of solicitor quote) ?

chesby

chesby wrote: »

Purchase of Property

1. Professional Fees €2,100

Cheers,

Went through the process about 18 months ago (id say). My professional fee was literally half of yours (€1,050).


EDIT: Just went back and checked the actual invoice. Unsure now if the 'professional fee' was exactly €1,050 (though that's what I have in my head, but I just checked the invoice and it says:

"Plus Fees and outlays re purchase € 2,086.50"

So that was my all-in price (minus stamp duty).

lawred2

chesby wrote: »

Solicitor is Based in Cork .
Was that Recently out of curiosity ? .

Using him for the third time in four years right now actually

juke

chesby wrote: »

No Quote Asked For by myself, and No quote Given by him at the beginning .
Does this leave me with much options ?
Obviously Im going to pay , It would just be nice to say , "You should have quoted me at the beginning ?!"

Wouldn't this just be a case of "Buyer Beware" on my part though (In terms of solicitor quote) ?

A solicitor is obliged to set out in advance the basis upon which they intend charging. In conveyancing, this is generally a fixed quote.

If I were you, at a minimum, I would let him know you are surprised at the level of fees and ask him to go through them with you.

chesby

Deleted User wrote: »

Went through the process about 18 months ago (id say). My professional fee was literally half of yours (€1,050).


EDIT: Just went back and checked the actual invoice. Unsure now if the 'professional fee' was exactly €1,050 (though that's what I have in my head, but I just checked the invoice and it says:

"Plus Fees and outlays re purchase € 2,086.50"

So that was my all-in price (minus stamp duty).

Cheers for the above info, The other Solicitors I inquired with where more closer to what you've said above. Max quoted was €1,800, with the average being in the range of 1400 to 1600. So You can imagine my shock when i got billed this week .

chesby

juke wrote: »

If I were you, at a minimum, I would let him know you are surprised at the level of fees and ask him to go through them with you.

Will do juke ! .
Ill Bring the other quotes with me to back up my claim about it not being what i expected.
It will be interesting to see what he says .

august12

chesby wrote: »

Will do juke ! .
Ill Bring the other quotes with me to back up my claim about it not being what i expected.
It will be interesting to see what he says .

I have recently bought a property, had to pay my own solicitor and bank solicitor as property is rated as a 'buy to let'.
My solicitor fees were charged at a higher rate because had to deal with bank solicitor and vendor solicitor, the breakdown as follows:

Prof. Fee 2250 normally 1500
Misc. Fee 50
Vat 529
Searches 150
Folio completion 5
Commis. Fee 40
Total 3024

Bank solicitor fee
Prof. Fee 850
VAT 195.50
Bank charge re transfer 25
PRA fee 700 Land registry fee on deed of transfer
Charge 175 Land registry fee on deed of mortgage
Folio 5
Total 1950.5

Refund of 1500 from bank towards legal fees, so all legal fees came to 3474.50.

Muahahaha

I agree with others that his prices do seem quite high. I am aware that it can be done for about 40% less than you are being asked to pay. As a guide the bottom of the market is €1,200+VAT with some solicitors asking €2,000+VAT for the same job. He is also charging two sets of professional fees, while he is entitled to set out his stall how he wishes and charge a second fee on the first registration many solicitors just give an all in price to settle the entire transaction. I've often seen prices in the €1,500+VAT range that would include the work on a first registration.

chesby wrote: »

Bearing in Mind I also had to Pay Another Third party Solicitor an Additional €650 based on my own solicitors advise as he wanted to be certain on an one aspect of the property purchase (Review of Title/Deeds).

This is the bit you might have a problem with. A title review is bread and butter of a conveyance and unless there was something extrordinary about the property I'm wondering why he felt a second opinion was needed? Did he tell you reason? A title review should be included as part of his professional fees, if he didn't feel he was competent enough to do it himself well then I would be asking questions about being charged a further €650 to get it done elsewhere.

Finally as said all solicitors work must be quoted for in advance, it is called a Section 68 letter. If you weren't provided with one then he is in breach of both Law Society professional standards and the law itself. Not providing a section 68 letter doesn't mean you don't have to pay for the work done. However there is case law there where the taxing master reduced the fees of solicitors who didnt quote up front before the work began. If the taxing master forms the view that the solicitor was overcharging on typical market rates then he can order the solicitor to reduce the professional fee charged.

chesby

Muahahaha wrote: »

I'm wondering why he felt a second opinion was needed? Did he tell you reason?

Going from what he said on the phone , He said something along the lines of "the Property Title/Deeds being Quite/Long , or a lot to go through as it was registered in an older format as it hadn't been registered on the new system since the property had last changed owner", and he would like to just get a second Opinion that everything was correct .


I'm tending to agree with you on this - "if he didn't feel he was competent enough to do it himself well then I would be asking questions about being charged a further €650 to get it done elsewhere."


However at the Time , he put it to me in the Question of , "The decision is up to you ?, but my professional opinion is that I recommend you get it looked at",-So I thought I would be kicking myself if I didn't heed his advice and came to regret it later on.

In terms of heading down the Tax Master Route of Proceedings , its not like
His Fees are 5 Times the going rate , Especially after talking to other Boards Members and a few friends face to face.I suppose my main gripe with the whole process being that if I was quoted his figure up front to begin with , I would not have proceed with him .

Claw Hammer

You can complain to the Law society about over-charging and not getting a section 68 letter.

Muahahaha

chesby wrote: »

Going from what he said on the phone , He said something along the lines of "the Property Title/Deeds being Quite/Long , or a lot to go through as it was registered in an older format as it hadn't been registered on the new system since the property had last changed owner", and he would like to just get a second Opinion that everything was correct .

ah here that sounds like complete rubbish to me. Unregistered title deeds by their very nature are quite long but that is no excuse for him not doing the job you were paying him to do. I mean if he came back to you and said there is a problem with the title because of planning/taxation or a question mark over good and and marketable title and I want to get a second opinion then that would be fair enough, it can happen. But to say he wants you to pay an extra €650 because he didn't want to put two or three hours work in himself to properly investigate the title then he is either incompetent or lazy.

However at the Time , he put it to me in the Question of , "The decision is up to you ?, but my professional opinion is that I recommend you get it looked at",-So I thought I would be kicking myself if I didn't heed his advice and came to regret it later on.

Sounds like he scared you into it to be honest and he uses his "professional opinion" to seal the deal. There was nothing professional about him not doing the title investigation himself because the title deeds were too long for his liking and instead lumping you with a further bill of €650

In terms of heading down the Tax Master Route of Proceedings , its not like
His Fees are 5 Times the going rate , Especially after talking to other Boards Members and a few friends face to face.I suppose my main gripe with the whole process being that if I was quoted his figure up front to begin with , I would not have proceed with him .

Thats the whole thing really. He is legally obliged to quote you so you then have the opportunity to refuse doing business with him. He didn't do that, he denied you your chance to know what it was going to cost. And on top of that he is now charging you for outsourced work that any competent solicitor would be doing in house themselves, work that only takes a few hours. If I were you Id be having words with him about it and asking for a reduction in fees. Mention the lack of a section 68 letter and that will concentrate his mind. IMO he is walking on very thin ice on what you said has gone on here.

DaveyDave

Just thought I'd join in with my query here, our solicitor is saying the title paperwork is much longer than expected and that the contract issued was an old one from the first phase of the estate two years ago. Our professional fee (ex. VAT) has gone from €1,400 to €2,500.

When we asked for more detail about the cost they said the title is going to take 3-4 hours more than expected and referred us to the terms of engagement which just states the cost will go up depending on the complexity of the work which is fair enough.

They're vague in their emails and don't sound like they want us asking many questions. They also keep quoting stamp duty as an old house and added on two fees for new builds we didn't know about so their original and updated quote are both incorrect.

My sister used the same solicitor and had some issues with the land of the house she bought and her fee only went up a fraction of ours despite a bit of back and forth. I'm not sure what to feel about it.

Can anyone shed some light on this sort of situation? Something just feels off with them.

Dolbhad

DaveyDave wrote: »

Just thought I'd join in with my query here, our solicitor is saying the title paperwork is much longer than expected and that the contract issued was an old one from the first phase of the estate two years ago. Our professional fee (ex. VAT) has gone from €1,400 to €2,500.

When we asked for more detail about the cost they said the title is going to take 3-4 hours more than expected and referred us to the terms of engagement which just states the cost will go up depending on the complexity of the work which is fair enough.

They're vague in their emails and don't sound like they want us asking many questions. They also keep quoting stamp duty as an old house and added on two fees for new builds we didn't know about so their original and updated quote are both incorrect.

My sister used the same solicitor and had some issues with the land of the house she bought and her fee only went up a fraction of ours despite a bit of back and forth. I'm not sure what to feel about it.

Can anyone shed some light on this sort of situation? Something just feels off with them.

I suppose the issue depends on what your build. Is it a new build but your buying a second or later phase?

DaveyDave

Dolbhad wrote: »

I suppose the issue depends on what your build. Is it a new build but your buying a second or later phase?

It's a new build, house is built and ready to go.

lawrencesummers

caviardreams wrote: »

I thought by law solicitors had to quote fees up front for conveyancing?

Don’t you know that the legal Profession is above the law? Come on lad get with it.

Dolbhad

DaveyDave wrote: »

It's a new build, house is built and ready to go.

Maybe someone has happened - have they had to look at extra wayleaves etc. But you would think all the issues would be ironed out by phase 2 and it is a big jump. Ask what exactly is the issue their reviewing and can they provide you copies of the documents their reviewing.

razor8

Hi



i have to get a right of way sorted for land been used as security for a land purchase. the right of way is across a every day road used by 4 families but involves 7 separate land folios. The roadway is not in charge by the local authority

To do the 7 straight forward rights of ways that I brought to individuals and got all signed (i also prepared right of way maps myself) and also one folio subdivision. My charges are €1050 which doesnt include any land registry fees. This is totally separate to charges for the land purchase which is approx €2000

does the €1050 sound fair?