Recruiters

Sebastian Dangerfield

I've been keeping an eye on the jobs market for the last year, with a view to potentially moving. I'm on a decent salary and treated well in the company I'm in, but frustrated by the job itself so decided to keep an eye out for potential opportunities. I've spoken to or dealt with most of the recruiters in Dublin, and while I had some bad experiences years ago, I thought they'd have gotten better - I'm a little surprised by how frustrating it has been. Some specific examples:

Recruiter 1: They advertised a role, I sent my CV and met with him. Agreed to go ahead, and booked interview. He called me the day before the interview to run through a few things, then said "and remember if it comes up, you'll agree to a salary of X". I was a little surprised, as I had never agreed to that with him or anyone, it was about 5k below my minimum requirement. His answer was "we can agree to disagree on the miscommunication, but for now I've told them that figure so if you contradict me, we'll both look bad and they won't like it". Of course I intended to ignore him completely. The interview went badly; they forgot about me and were 20 mins late dialling into the video conference. I knew coming out I wasn't for them and they weren't for me. I never found out unfortunately, because the recruiter never contacted me again. No feedback, no "thanks but no thanks", nothing.

Recruiter 2: Sent me a role that looked interesting, with a company I really like. Unfortunately the role was a little too junior, and paid well below what I'm on now, let alone what I'd hope to get with a move. I told him it wasn't for me, only to get call saying "They've seen your CV and are really keen to meet. I've told them your salary requirements and they're willing to work with us on the seniority and salary". Great, I thought... Interview was going great, last question was about my salary requirements. I told him what I was on now, and he nearly fell out of his chair. It was obvious that it was completely out of bounds, so I called the recruiter after and told him. The response? "I definitely told them your salary... I'm sure of it... well I definitely wrote it on the page. Maybe he didn't read it". 3 weeks later I got a call to say feedback was really good, but the role wasn't going ahead after all. To their credit that firm has been ok otherwise, but that was an awkward one which may damage my chances with that company again.

Recruiter 3: Got a LinkedIn connection request from a senior partner of a new recruitment firm I'd never heard of. Asked to meet, said he had a lot on the go, despite being new to the market. All sounded great; he told me he and his partners had a lot of senior contacts in the industry, and didnt bother with HR and receptionists as gatekeepers, they went straight to decision makers (started to doubt it at this point...). The difference between his firms and the others, he said, was their focus was on candidates rather than just sales. Open, honest communication, quick follow up, no lies. We left it that he would send me a list of senior people he thought I should meet, then he would arrange informal meetings / coffees with whoever I wanted to meet from the list.
3 weeks later after hearing nothing, I followed up (quick follow up?). He replied with a list of every single financial services company that exists in Dublin who he is apparently representing, including a firm I used to work for which closed 18 months before his firm even opened (no lies?), asking who I wanted to meet. "Not this one" I said, "I know they only hire people with chartered professional qualifications, I met them already". His response? "Do they? Oh...". That was 4 months ago, unsurprisingly no connections since.

Recruiter 4: Met with a guy who seemed helpful about a specific role. He seemed genuine, a nice fella. Then the door opens and a more senior person explains he'll be taking over because of the senior level I'm looking at. Proceeded to ask me a series of questions, then when I answered stare out the window disinterested, or just cut across me completely. We left the meeting at the stage where he had contacts in all big 4 audit firms who would love my CV with some tweaks, he was going to send me some tips and take it from there. I heard nothing 3 weeks later so followed up... never heard anything on it again. Since then various people in the company have sent me 4 roles which I gave the go-ahead to apply for despite getting the feeling salary would be a little low. Never heard a single thing from one of them, even to say the company didnt like my CV, salary was too high, role had been filled etc.

There are various others, including one firm who advertised a role, told me it had been filled when I asked, only to republish it on their website every month since... though they're so lazy they forgot to take the company name out of the spec. A quick check on the companies website (they hire directly also) shows no such role exists.

If anyone else has tips on how to handle them (or good stories), feel free to share!

To the people who will probably say "maybe you're the problem"; I'm not raising issue with their failure to find me a job, I'm raising issue with the lies, misrepresentations, inability to reply to messages and so on. I've got a good CV and the two interviews noted above are the only roles Ive interviewed for that havent worked out. I'll get there in the end hopefully...

As someone who worked as a professional Talent Manager for 8 years, what you say is 100% on the button and also the reason I moved out of the industry.

A recruiter company gets paid a % (usually 10-12) of your salary, but they people at this role as sales staff with no training and very little expertise. When a role comes in it is usually given to 2-5 other agencies and it is very much a race to see who gets CV's in first. When I was the hiring manager and factored the work out to an agency it was common for Cv;s to come back to me within 1-2 hours of the job spec being given out. This was not enough time to read and understand the spec fully and also speak to the candidates.

On the actual professionalism of staff, it is rock bottom. If a recruiter cant make money off you there and then, you are worth noting to them, no time, no effort, they wont even tweak your CV despite the fact they could potentially make 5-10K if you got the role!

Take my advice, research the companies you want to work with, look up the HR/TA managers there and make a direct contact if your interested.
I really dont know why companies still use recruiters anymore, I found they damage the brand more than anything else.

dar100

I really dont know why anyone would use such a service

I have never had a good experience with a third part recruiter. My most recent job I responded to a LinkedIn message but it was only because it was from a HR rep who actually worked for the company, and it appeared they had actually sent me a message rather than just copying my name into some canned one.

Had a recruiter out of the blue contact me on LinkedIn last week and just look at the language they use in their message:

I would love to connect and have a conversation with yourself. I am a global headhunter, I have been retained to market map and identify exceptional talent who have had experience within {industry}.This is for an exceptional role in Dublin with a global client.Through extensive market mapping, I have identified yourself as a candidate who my client would have a great interest in speaking with

Who the hell talks like this?

And no this is not some attempt at a humble brag, I assure you all there are precisely zero global headhunters in search of my particular talents.

CageWager

Due to the essentially non existent barriers to entry, the recruitment industry presents a significant variance in quality. It's like doing the leaving cert, if you get a sh1te teacher then all of a sudden the subject becomes exponentially harder. Here are the types of recruiter that you can get:


1: The graduate or someone who maybe worked in a bank or an insurance company office as a trainee for a year or two but got bored. They are attracted to the money that can be made in recruitment but they are thrown in at the deep end and when you are dealing with them and they are mixing up salary details/not calling you back etc. they are in the drowning phase. The turnover here is massive and they usually last 6 months or so.


2. The guy or girl who has worked as an accountant/solicitor/engineer etc. or some profession in which he/she will now be recruiting for maybe 5-7 years. They haven't progressed and they don't see a future for themselves as a lifer. They hear the same "big money in recruitment" stories as the graduate. As they have some life experience and industry knowledge they can make a good fist of recruitment and make a nice living. Some can't cope with the constant pressure and flounder.

3. The successful recruiter. This guy or girl has the combination of industry knowledge, people skills, and a genuine interest in the candidates. They see themselves as a consultant in the true sense of the word. They want to match the right people with the right roles, not out of some sense of responsibility to the candidate, but because they are building long term relationships with growing companies. These recruiters are not in it for a quick buck, they are in it for the long haul. They will handle far less candidates than no.s 1 and 2 above who are in the volume game. The rumours are true - the successful recruiter can pull in very respectable six figure salaries.

***

The reality of being a recruiter:

At any one time you will have something like 40 open roles for which you are recruiting. You advertise them on a job site and get c. 100 CV's back for each role. 50 of these candidates are completely unsuitable for the role for a huge variety of reasons. Out of the remaining 50 you whittle it down to the best 10 and have an initial phonecall to gauge interest, ask about experience etc. Then you pick the best 5 to meet in person. Then you send the best 3 forward for interview. 1 of them gets the job.

Some observations:

1. Every one of the 100 people who went to the bother of putting their name forward for a role thinks that they should get the job.

2. When you have 40 live roles that means that you are dealing with 4000 CV's - every one of which wants daily updates on the status of his/her application (Hint: Can you start to see why a recruiter isn't capable of giving everyone massively personalised attention??)

3. AS A CANDIDATE THE RECRUITER DOES NOT WORK FOR YOU. Their client is the hiring company and their job is to get the best person for the role based on the dynamics within the market.

4. Based on my example above, each time a recruiter advertises a role and 100 people apply, in the end 99 of them say "that recruiter is a gobsh1te/inept/idiot etc. etc." and 1 person says "that recruiter got me a great job, he's a great fella altogether". Multiply that by 40 live roles and you have 3960 people who think you're a chancer and 40 who think you're a legend. Its just the nature of the business. Water off a ducks back.

Now there are plenty of issues with the industry. As mentioned above - there are very low barriers to entry so you can get a mixed bag. In my experience, there are lots of smart, ambitious recruiters and lots of less than impressive ones. If you are dealing with a bad one, take comfort in the knowledge that they won't last long - commission heavy compensation packages sort them out very quickly.

Some agencies are certainly more reputable than others. The advertising of non-existent roles to mine CV's is fairly common.

My advice is - it's a service that costs you, the candidate, nothing. Like a good barber or butcher, if you can find one, hang on to him and he'll see you through thick and thin. Shop around and if you meet a chancer don't be afraid to tell him/her to delete your record and CV from their database so that they don't contact you any more.

Talk with them. Ask them questions. If they are willing to chat about your career generally, if they ask about your aspirations and not just focus on shoving whatever job they have today down your throat, then you have a keeper. Treat them with respect, casually keep in touch and view them as an insider who can have an ear to the ground for you in your chosen market. Again, seek specialist recruiters, not jack of all trades. Especially at the mid to senior level, a good specialist recruiter will do a large portion of his/her work without advertising anything. Great roles get filled on the QT.

I know this is a serious ramble but I often get asked similar questions as the OP as I worked in recruitment for nearly 7 years and I was lucky enough to do well out of it financially, made some great contacts, and learned a lot before moving out of the industry altogether.

Feel free to fire me on any questions..

Edit: By the way - none of the above is directed at you OP in any sort of negative way. Its just the collected ramblings of my personal experience. I hate the fact that some recruiters lie and misrepresent information as a matter of course as it gives everyone a bad rep.

Sebastian Dangerfield

dar100 wrote: »

I really dont know why anyone would use such a service

Unfotunately a lot of companies dont hire directly, so there is no choice

OMM 0000

dar100 wrote: »

I really dont know why anyone would use such a service

If you're struggling to get a highly skilled person, or a very senior person, a recruiter can be worth it.

They can also be useful if you need to suddenly hire a large amount of people - for example, you just opened a new McDonald's and you immediately need 20 people.

They're also useful when you don't want to directly employ a person or group of people, so they work for you via the agency.

But I see a lot of useless HR people use them, simply because they're too lazy to put a job advert online, and read through the CVs themselves.

I agree fully that if, a big if, you get a good recruiter they are good, but even at senior level the onus is to make more and more calls and sales and so even the good recruiter still has too much on the plate.

Any very good company to work with should by rights have their own internal TA dept. who not only hire in but also work to develop internal talent, those are the ones to go after

johnshep.ie

Hi

Great 'ramble' full of pointers. Bit of advice required. I was successfully self employed for 15 years in a different sector, sold everything on and decided to take a wage. For the last 2 years I've worked as an employment mentor on an ESF project in Belfast, getting people upskilled and into work. Never had an issue with targets as I felt it was about clear concise communication with the client and working together.
Anyway, I've made lots of contacts and got tonnes of accessible personal interested in casual work across the usual sectors, warehousing, hospitality, call centre,construction etc.
Brexit is scaring a lot of people in these sectors in the North as regards job security and sector shrinkage, especially Foreign Nationals. So I have put it to them about work in the Republic, Drogheda or Dublin and it is something that they seem happy to entertain. So basically I have access to hundreds of working/not working people, that are eager to travel for better money and relative job security.
I would like to hear what you think my next step should be, as I would like to move into the recruitment sector but with a reasonable amount of control...if possible! Do I cold call employers? HR Dept's? Just start the conversation?

Also, in reference to agents not having an abundance of professional integrity, I have been at the wrong end of that type of service in the past. So I try to take as much interest in my clients progress as possible, I always encourage external training and promote personal development. Any advice or pointers are very welcome.

Ficheall

CageWager wrote: »

it's a service that costs you, the candidate, nothing.

This is not true. Companies which recruit only through recruitment agencies are far more difficult to apply for jobs with. Recruiters are just one more hurdle which has to be cleared. I have yet to have a recruiter find me a suitable potential job, but I have had more than one instance where my attempts to apply for a job I found for which I was very well qualified were thwarted by awful recruitment agencies through whom I had to apply.

rockandrolldamn

I was approached by an recrutiment agency the day before yesterday about a role that appeared to be a very good fit for me via linkedin. I repled and was send an decent responce with the full Job spec including the organiation. Its a semistate body and in the responce the recruter said that they had enquired with the client about the salary range they had been told that it was set. This made me wonder as generally these things are set and there in no wriggle room outside those parameters. I replied to say I was interested and they said they would call this morning. I recived no call, I tried to call at 2pm didnt get so much as a reply to say they were otherwise ocupied ect. In the end I logged onto the oganisations website and discovered they were advrtising it them selves publicly. My question here is:

Do recruters go through job adverts and then try to find 'canditates' saying they have a list of people on their books who are a good fit, and if the organisation tells them they have a policy of not using recruters ect do they simply drop you with no further coms?

Im may well go for the Job myself directly, the deadline is not far off so I might wait 1 more working day for the recruiter to get back to me out of courtesy. I wold prefer to deal directly with the organisation anyway.

Second question. If I wait untill the last day to submit the application, apply for the job and get it is the recruter likely to seek a pound of flesh and if so how hard could they pursure it?

Ive previously had bad experience with the same (Large) agency so I might be a bit wary anyway.

Sebastian Dangerfield

rockandrolldamn wrote: »

I was approached by an recrutiment agency the day before yesterday about a role that appeared to be a very good fit for me via linkedin. I repled and was send an decent responce with the full Job spec including the organiation. Its a semistate body and in the responce the recruter said that they had enquired with the client about the salary range they had been told that it was set. This made me wonder as generally these things are set and there in no wriggle room outside those parameters. I replied to say I was interested and they said they would call this morning. I recived no call, I tried to call at 2pm didnt get so much as a reply to say they were otherwise ocupied ect. In the end I logged onto the oganisations website and discovered they were advrtising it them selves publicly. My question here is:

Do recruters go through job adverts and then try to find 'canditates' saying they have a list of people on their books who are a good fit, and if the organisation tells them they have a policy of not using recruters ect do they simply drop you with no further coms?

Im may well go for the Job myself directly, the deadline is not far off so I might wait 1 more working day for the recruiter to get back to me out of courtesy. I wold prefer to deal directly with the organisation anyway.

Second question. If I wait untill the last day to submit the application, apply for the job and get it is the recruter likely to seek a pound of flesh and if so how hard could they pursure it?

Ive previously had bad experience with the same (Large) agency so I might be a bit wary anyway.

First question - yes, for sure they do. I know of one financial services firm who got so many of these, theyve put a disclaimer on their jobs page that they dont contract with recruiters, and that any cvs they send in may be used with no compensation in return. For my most recent move (not to the company mentioned) a recruiter sent in my cv and were informed they were accepting my application but would not be dealing with the recruiter. Seems to be common.

Second question - unless you give consent to the recruiter to apply for the specific position on your behalf, Im pretty sure they have no claim whatsoever.

Aleece2020

Recruiters and recruitment agencies are very difficult to deal with; especially given the pandemic. That's not to say all of them are bad; but there certainly are a great many examples of awful idiots in the industry.

The worst I have encountered are the ones on LinkedIn who post "inspirational stories" that are clearly made up and have no basis in reality. Fantastic stories about how a candidate broke down and cried during an interview and begged for the job because they were desperate; so being the great and wonderfully empathetic person that they are they hired them on the spot. Another story about how a candidate gave a stray dog half of their sandwich on their way to work; so the dog followed them to the interview - but it turns out the dog was the recruiters lost childhood pet who went missing 30+ years ago so the candidate gets the job for finding him.

Honestly think some of them would be better suited to a career in creative writing.

Honestly, recruiters are the pits and treat applicants terribly.

I know that's a broad statement but has been my impression over the previous 12 months.

I have had three roles, mid senior level, that I was asked by recruiters to apply for, pretty persistently in a couple of cases, and I progressed pretty far in each of them.

In each case, it became apparent to me that I was ultimately unsuccessful, which is fine as none were a great fit and I probably wouldn't have made the move anyway. In each case the recruiter never contacted me to say I was unsuccessful.

I contacted each of the recruiters to get an update after radio silence, two responded to me to say I was unsuccessful and one didn't bother.

These were all well paying roles that had a min of three interviews and which had a big time cost for me as an applicant, and lots of buttering up on the phone by the recruiters. And for them not to even have the good grace or professionalism to keep you informed in all eventualities is really very poor and leaves a bad taste.

I have two other colleagues who have had the same experience. None of us will deal with recruiters anymore. If one makes us aware of a role we'll go straight to the firm.

Jim2007

Deleted User wrote: »

Honestly, recruiters are the pits and treat applicants terribly.

You pay them nothing, so what do you expect? They work for a paying client and as long as the client is happy, it's no skin of their nose if you are unhappy or not. They'll still come up with the required number of CVs for the client next time around as well, even if you ignore them.


Adjust your expectations, live is too short be get upset about something you don't control.

Jim2007

Jim2007 wrote: »

You pay them nothing, so what do you expect? They work for a paying client and as long as the client is happy, it's no skin of their nose if you are unhappy or not. They'll still come up with the required number of CVs for the client next time around as well, even if you ignore them.


Adjust your expectations, live is too short be get upset about something you don't control.

Cool your own jets mate. It's an opinion and a bit of a rant, people tend to get pissed off if they've been treated unprofessionally.

Common and professional courtesy are reasonable expectations.

Mrs OBumble

[Deleted User] wrote: »

..., which is fine as none were a great fit and I probably wouldn't have made the move anyway.

Why on earth did you waste your time, and thrirs, pursuing jobs you had no intention of taking?

Mrs OBumble

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Why on earth did you waste your time, and thrirs, pursuing jobs you had no intention of taking?

Interviews are exploratory processes. It isn't just an opportunity for an employer to see if a potential employee is a good fit, but is also an opportunity for an employee to see if a prospective employer is a good fit.

That's why you need to ask questions in an interview. And recruiters will/can tell you feck all anyway so you need to go through the process to learn.

Jim2007

Deleted User wrote: »

Cool your own jets mate. It's an opinion and a bit of a rant, people tend to get pissed off if they've been treated unprofessionally.

Common and professional courtesy are reasonable expectations.

Whining about things you can't change does not make any sense. In any case why use agencies that you don't like for jobs that are not a good fit in the first place???????

Jim2007

Jim2007 wrote: »

Whining about things you can't change does not make any sense. In any case why use agencies that you don't like for jobs that are not a good fit in the first place???????

Already addressed both those "points".

Plenty of professionals won't deal with recruiters anymore, maybe those reading these comments might convince some to take it on board.

I'm doing you guys a favour :-)

MrsBean

Aleece2020 wrote: »

The worst I have encountered are the ones on LinkedIn who post "inspirational stories" that are clearly made up and have no basis in reality. Fantastic stories about how a candidate broke down and cried during an interview and begged for the job because they were desperate; so being the great and wonderfully empathetic person that they are they hired them on the spot. Another story about how a candidate gave a stray dog half of their sandwich on their way to work; so the dog followed them to the interview - but it turns out the dog was the recruiters lost childhood pet who went missing 30+ years ago so the candidate gets the job for finding him.

Have a look at The State of LinkedIn on twitter I'd you want more where that came from!

Aleece2020

Jim2007 wrote: »

In any case why use agencies that you don't like for jobs that are not a good fit in the first place???????

Some, but not all, agencies will lie to you about the job just to get you into it. This has happened to me and a few of my colleagues.

Not all agencies do this, but just be aware that some of them will. It’s a mixed bag with them.

Jim2007

Aleece2020 wrote: »

Some, but not all, agencies will lie to you about the job just to get you into it. This has happened to me and a few of my colleagues.

Not all agencies do this, but just be aware that some of them will. It’s a mixed bag with them.

I've spent 30 years dealing with agencies: as contractor, employee and employer I know very well how the game is played. When you're not paying client, don't expect much and down wast your time whining about things you can't changed.

Aleece2020

Jim2007 wrote: »

I've spent 30 years dealing with agencies: as contractor, employee and employer I know very well how the game is played. When you're not paying client, don't expect much and down wast your time whining about things you can't changed.

That’s very true. In the end, they just want to get their referral fees and will do whatever it takes to get paid. I wouldn’t go in expecting much from them as a candidate. Certainly wouldn’t complain to them either because it’s pointless.

Jim2007

Jim2007 wrote: »

I've spent 30 years dealing with agencies: as contractor, employee and employer I know very well how the game is played. When you're not paying client, don't expect much and down wast your time whining about things you can't changed.

Are you not wasting your own time whining here??
Let people have a moan if they want, no skin off your back (is it ?)

Sebastian Dangerfield

Aleece2020 wrote: »

That’s very true. In the end, they just want to get their referral fees and will do whatever it takes to get paid. I wouldn’t go in expecting much from them as a candidate. Certainly wouldn’t complain to them either because it’s pointless.

Pointless indeed, but personally I expect anyone Im dealing with in a professional capacity to do the basics - keep appointments, return calls or emails, tell the truth etc. The increasing inability/ unwillingness in society to do this frustrates me more with every passing year. Mortgage brokers, estate agents, even doctors to an extent, it drives me nuts.

The White Feather

I have had the same run arounds from recruiters. They will be ringing constantly to get you to send in your CV and put you forward for a job. Tell you that you are perfect for it etc

I have gone through a load of bad experiences such as getting me an interview and where they lied about what I could do and had changed my CV . I was left trying to talk my way out of things.

When you are desperate for a job you end up trying all avenues. Most of them get your CV and thats it. Even if you do an interview that they got, I have found they won't ring you to tell you anything and won't return calls.

I was in a job once that I wanted to leave as I was being hounded in it. Trying to hang on to it until I got out but I had to stay due to money worries. A recruitment guy ran me and said he had to see me in person. I said cant we do it over the phone and he said no. Had to see me in person to "see if I was really interested in the job he had for a client" and he would send it in before a deadline. I did a whole thing at work pretending I was sick to get the afternoon off. (I was rang in the morning and told be at their recruitment office that afternoon) I had no car at the time, so had to be collected from work by a relative and dropped to recruitment office. The recruitment guy asked me to bring 2 sets of ID as well.

So I was tired and stressed after arranging lifts and doing the "I'm sick and need to go home" but made it on time. The guy was then late and I had to wait over 30 mins. Then he photocopied my IDs and took a picture of me for "records" even though I knew that was very weird. Then after going through my CV he said the job is now "on hold" and seeya! This is a really big well known one not a guy in a shed BTW!

That was a horrible experience for nothing and just made my life at work harder as I went home sick and missed time etc.

Then in saying that I have had great experiences too. A few kept me updated every step of the way. One guy helped me revamp my CV entirely and got me the dream job that I am in now. Most are awful though.

My advice is they are a necessary evil that can be good sometimes so use them but don't let them use you like they did with me ! Keep expectations low and apply on your own for most things. I'm never letting somebody take my picture or copy my IDs again though thats for sure!!