Planning Query - Can I own a house and still apply for planning with Wicklow Co Co?

SarahGriffalo

Hi Everyone,

I use these boards a lot, but haven't ever posted. Just wondering if anyone might know of a way for me and my husband to own a house, but still be able to apply for planning with the notoriously difficult Wicklow Co Co?

Quick sum-up of my situation. We were all left land by my great uncle in West Wicklow, my two sisters and brother have built behind my parents' house, all on the same tract of land (over an acre each). I would be the last to seek planning on my plot at the back. My sister was the latest to get it ten years ago, but it took 5 years and almost never happened, as we're just outside village limits. Wicklow don't make it easy! We're renting my sister's place just in front of my plot of land, but now she wants to sell it pretty quickly due to a personal situation. We haven't anywhere else to go, so we are stuck probably having to buy the house to have somewhere to live, because there's nowhere up for rent or reasonable sale nearby (baby minded in the local area, need to stay close). But we have no time now to apply for planning permission before she sells, as it'd probably take a good while to get it done (if we would even GET it!), and we've nowhere to live in the meantime.

My question is, can we buy her house in my husband's name only, and could I still apply for planning for our plot of land in the coming years in my name? Do I have to declare it because we're married now? Is there any way around it?

(We don't particularly like her house, and there's a lot of work to be done on it, as well as the fact it'll cost about 100 grand more than what we could build our own house for. So we would want to sell it on or rent it out in a few years, when we build our own, if we had to buy it now. We want to build a small house for ourselves, and be mortgage-free earlier in life. Kinda stuck right now because of the housing situation.)

Thanks, in advance, for any help anyone can give me!

Gumbo

Depends on the site in question.
Is it subject to Local Needs?

SarahGriffalo

Does that mean only local people can live there?

I know with the planning it's next to impossible to build in our area without local ties (you have to include school records, letters of recommendation from local people, etc. with your planning application), if that is what you mean. The main reason our family planning applications have been such a fiasco is that we're outside the village limits, so count as single rural developments. We're down a lane that until recently was in very bad shape. It's now been tarmacced, which would help my planning application (especially as I contributed to it). But they don't seem to want development in our area, even though there are now 9 houses on that small lane, so it's a small community of houses.

I'm really wondering if there's any way of buying the house and still being able to apply for planning because I'm pretty sure Wicklow have a rule that if you own a house anywhere else (never mind next to the site I want to build on), you are denied planning permission.

Dudda

I think the key is to get a planning application lodged while your renting and soon to be homeless.

If you already own the plot why not just quickly apply for planning permission. I’m sure she can wait a few weeks and doesn’t need it sold today? Quickly get an architect and start designing the house. While designing layouts get percolation tests done. Aim to lodge planning in 4-6 weeks from today or less if possible. Make sure you’ve OS maps showing where you’re parents live, other family members, any additional lands owned by family members, highlight the house you’re currently living in. Include all folios for your parents, sister, other family members, etc as proof showing they own what’s highlighted on the os maps. Foilos can be purchased from Landdirect.ie in seconds but check now encase the site has an issue. Have a letter from your sister saying she owns the house you’re currently renting and living in and that she needs you to move out for personal reasons (don’t mention selling as it’s available for you to purchase). Don’t be afraid to mention you’ll be homeless soon. Have a letter from your parents saying they’ll help look after kid(s) which is why you need to live beside them. If the baby have any medical conditions, even ashma state it that the parents are aware of conditions and can help. State you need to help looking after your parents and live close to them as they get older and get them to state and confirm that in their letter. If you work close get a letter from your employer confirming you work in the locality. Get records from the local school showing you went to school and grew up in the area. A letter from the local priest. A letter or receipt showing you contributed to the upgrade of the road. Get a letter from any local clubs your a current member of or were growing up. Is your child enrolled or future enrolled in any local school. A copy of this is also useful. The trick is to have so much housing need they couldn’t possibly request anything else or be in any doubt. If you get the application lodged with all that housing proof and wait another 4-6 weeks for the planners to inspect the site and percolation test holes then your sister could put the house up for sale on daft, auctioneers website etc although I’d avoid putting up a for sale sign in the garden to be safe. The application should be lodged in your name only. Don’t mention your husbands name. All the above is true and to be honest right now you’ve a genuine housing need.

Once you’ve the planning application submitted with all the housing need requirements they should have all the information and proof they need. If it then takes two or even five years to get planning permission so what, all the details you submitted were true and accurate at the time of lodging the application. If during the application period your husband (and only your husband not joint) was to purchase your sisters house this isn’t additional information you have to provide and highly unlikely they’ll request once the application is lodged.

If your purchase your sisters house before lodging a planning application I can’t see how you’ll qualify for a housing need which is why I think you need to start today getting your planning application documents in order if your sister is keen to sell.

looksee

A few thoughts on the above.

If you have built a house on a basis of local needs then you cannot sell or let it for a specific period of time, so be careful about saying you are renting your sister's house.

It could well be that the fact that there are now 9 houses in a group will be the sticking point. If you have enough dwellings in a group like that you create a 'hub' which means that the local authority has obligations towards you, such as public lighting, water supply, max number of septic tanks, access to facilities. They will avoid allowing too many houses together unless they are in a zoned area that has been decided in the National Plan.

Don't run away with the idea that it would be cheaper to build than to buy your sister's house, building is very expensive. There could also be reasons why your piece of land might not have access or be restricted due to visual amenity - planning laws have changed a lot, not just in Wicklow. You need to have a pre-planning meeting - which could take 8 weeks to get, depending on county - before you start spending money on architects and engineers fees.

JoeA3

I don't know if the rules differ in Wicklow, but where I am (Galway), while there is also a strict local-needs policy, I was told that they don't particularly care about your current living arrangements. They will check their own records - but only to establish if you'd applied for planning in the county before - if you did, that would rule you out.

So long as you substantiate that you have ties to the area (family home nearby - provide land registry details to prove this, you attended local schools, etc), then that's sufficient - so I was told anyway (in a pre-planning meeting). As I said, this is in Galway, Wicklow may be different.

JimmyMW

looksee wrote: »

If you have built a house on a basis of local needs then you cannot sell or let it for a specific period of time, so be careful about saying you are renting your sister's house.

Most residency clauses are restricted to the applicant or an immediate family member, ie parents, children or siblings. Also I believe from the OP that the house is nearly 10 years old, most residency clauses are limited to 7 years so it shouldn't be applicable in this case, however defo check the conditions relating to your sisters planning application prior to your application.

JimmyMW

JoeA3 wrote: »

I don't know if the rules differ in Wicklow, but where I am (Galway), while there is also a strict local-needs policy, I was told that they don't particularly care about your current living arrangements. They will check their own records - but only to establish if you'd applied for planning in the county before - if you did, that would rule you out.

So long as you substantiate that you have ties to the area (family home nearby - provide land registry details to prove this, you attended local schools, etc), then that's sufficient - so I was told anyway (in a pre-planning meeting). As I said, this is in Galway, Wicklow may be different.

Generally once your housing need is met in the area ie by owning another house close by, the council then take it that your local needs have been met. Also having previously owned a house in the area will most likely rule you out on the same basis, even if the house has been long sold to the best of my knowledge.

JoeA3

JimmyMW wrote: »

Generally once your housing need is met in the area ie by owning another house close by, the council then take it that your local needs have been met. Also having previously owned a house in the area will most likely rule you out on the same basis, even if the house has been long sold to the best of my knowledge.

That's what I was concerned about before my pre-planning meeting. But the planner was pretty clear that they really don't police it that strictly - i.e. they really don't go looking for exactly what house you do own / owned. I'm not sure they even can or if they have the resources/will to do so. If you don't appear on their records as having made a previous planning application, that's their main concern.

Anyway, I'll soon find out for myself for sure if that's really the case...

JimmyMW

JoeA3 wrote: »

That's what I was concerned about before my pre-planning meeting. But the planner was pretty clear that they really don't police it that strictly - i.e. they really don't go looking for exactly what house you do own / owned. I'm not sure they even can or if they have the resources/will to do so. If you don't appear on their records as having made a previous planning application, that's their main concern.

Anyway, I'll soon find out for myself for sure if that's really the case...

Unless the applicant is willing to lie on the supplementary form as part of the planning application, it clearly asks if you own or have ever owned a dwelling in the area, in more than one location in the form. At least that is the case with Cork Co Co anyway, I'm open to correction elsewhere in the country.

SarahGriffalo

Dudda wrote: »

I think the key is to get a planning application lodged while your renting and soon to be homeless.

If you already own the plot why not just quickly apply for planning permission. I’m sure she can wait a few weeks and doesn’t need it sold today? Quickly get an architect and start designing the house. While designing layouts get percolation tests done. Aim to lodge planning in 4-6 weeks from today or less if possible. Make sure you’ve OS maps showing where you’re parents live, other family members, any additional lands owned by family members, highlight the house you’re currently living in. Include all folios for your parents, sister, other family members, etc as proof showing they own what’s highlighted on the os maps. Foilos can be purchased from Landdirect.ie in seconds but check now encase the site has an issue. Have a letter from your sister saying she owns the house you’re currently renting and living in and that she needs you to move out for personal reasons (don’t mention selling as it’s available for you to purchase). Don’t be afraid to mention you’ll be homeless soon. Have a letter from your parents saying they’ll help look after kid(s) which is why you need to live beside them. If the baby have any medical conditions, even ashma state it that the parents are aware of conditions and can help. State you need to help looking after your parents and live close to them as they get older and get them to state and confirm that in their letter. If you work close get a letter from your employer confirming you work in the locality. Get records from the local school showing you went to school and grew up in the area. A letter from the local priest. A letter or receipt showing you contributed to the upgrade of the road. Get a letter from any local clubs your a current member of or were growing up. Is your child enrolled or future enrolled in any local school. A copy of this is also useful. The trick is to have so much housing need they couldn’t possibly request anything else or be in any doubt. If you get the application lodged with all that housing proof and wait another 4-6 weeks for the planners to inspect the site and percolation test holes then your sister could put the house up for sale on daft, auctioneers website etc although I’d avoid putting up a for sale sign in the garden to be safe. The application should be lodged in your name only. Don’t mention your husbands name. All the above is true and to be honest right now you’ve a genuine housing need.

Once you’ve the planning application submitted with all the housing need requirements they should have all the information and proof they need. If it then takes two or even five years to get planning permission so what, all the details you submitted were true and accurate at the time of lodging the application. If during the application period your husband (and only your husband not joint) was to purchase your sisters house this isn’t additional information you have to provide and highly unlikely they’ll request once the application is lodged.

If your purchase your sisters house before lodging a planning application I can’t see how you’ll qualify for a housing need which is why I think you need to start today getting your planning application documents in order if your sister is keen to sell.

Amazing info, and I think I'll defo get going on that. That's got me very excited now! She's not selling until at least March, but possibly slightly more. She really wants to sell to us, as it would avoid the work she needs to do on the house, so either way we will have a house - which puts us in a better position than most, so I'm not complaining about that. I guess we just always had the drea mof building our own house.

I'll apply for a pre-planning meeting, as the other poster recommended too, to avoid wasting fees if it's clear they're not going to grand planning.

Thank you!

Dudda

SarahGriffalo wrote: »

Amazing info, and I think I'll defo get going on that. That's got me very excited now! She's not selling until at least March, but possibly slightly more. She really wants to sell to us, as it would avoid the work she needs to do on the house, so either way we will have a house - which puts us in a better position than most, so I'm not complaining about that. I guess we just always had the drea mof building our own house.

I'll apply for a pre-planning meeting, as the other poster recommended too, to avoid wasting fees if it's clear they're not going to grand planning.

Thank you!

Yes get a pre-planning meeting as suggested above as flooding/ views / access or anything else could instantly rule out the site.
Presuming the above is ok and even if you intend to buy and don't intend to build now due to cost of building/ current finances / etc I'd still consider applying for planning permission as this is your one and only chance to get planning. In 6 months when you own your sisters house you'll never get planning permission as you won't have a housing need. If you did get planning you'll likely be able to extend it after 5 years. If it takes 3 years to get planning then you've potentially 13 years before you need to get the walls built to roof level. Anything can happen in that length of time.

BryanF

Bring planning/arch advisor to the pre-planning

arctictree

If you have a good architect/planning consultant, a pre-planning meeting is a waste of time. Your consultant should know the county plan backwards and advise you of the strategy to take. In fact, the council basically told us this when we rang them about getting a pre planning meeting.

SarahGriffalo

arctictree wrote: »

If you have a good architect/planning consultant, a pre-planning meeting is a waste of time. Your consultant should know the county plan backwards and advise you of the strategy to take. In fact, the council basically told us this when we rang them about getting a pre planning meeting.

I was wondering about that, because I made tentative contact with Wicklow before Christmas about a pre-planning meeting, and they said that I didn't really qualify for needing one. The website quote is pretty much what they said to me on the phone - "Generally, pre-planning meetings are held in relation to large-scale, complex developments."

So I might try again, but if they're not open to it, I'll go ahead with the application.

SarahGriffalo

BryanF wrote: »

Bring planning/arch advisor to the pre-planning

I was hoping to avoid the cost of the architect until we were actually on the road to an application. Do you think it'd really be necessary?

JimmyMW

SarahGriffalo wrote: »

I was hoping to avoid the cost of the architect until we were actually on the road to an application. Do you think it'd really be necessary?

Given what your trying to achieve i would think a good architect at this stage to get the whole thing kicked off would be money well spent, especially given the tight time scale.

BryanF

SarahGriffalo wrote: »

I was hoping to avoid the cost of the architect until we were actually on the road to an application. Do you think it'd really be necessary?

Yes

Cost is minimal in scheme of things