Leaving cert exam centre

54and56

Hi all,

I hope this question hasn't been asked and answered many times, I have searched without success.

So my son is scheduled to sit the Leaving Cert this June.

He currently attends a fee paying school away from home but would like to sit the exams at a centre closer to home to save travel time each day but it's not clear to me from a search of the Dept of Education website whether he is entitled to sit the Leaving Cert exams at an exam centre of his choice, whether he is obliged to sit the exams at the school he currently attends or whether he has the right to sit the exams at the exam centre closest to his home?

Would really appreciate a steer on this.

Thanks in advance.

evolving_doors

I don't know the exact department policy... but from my experience it ends up being 100% at the discretion of the Principal.

I've seen it with students who have done an extra subject outside their school ringing around for a school and getting lots of no's.

I suppose he's not 'obliged' to sit it anywhere really. Also the school doesn't run the exams.... the SEC do, but they just happen to employ a teacher from that school to oversee it.

54and56

evolving_doors wrote: »

I don't know the exact department policy... but from my experience it ends up being 100% at the discretion of the Principal.

I've seen it with students who have done an extra subject outside their school ringing around for a school and getting lots of no's.

I suppose he's not 'obliged' to sit it anywhere really. Also the school doesn't run the exams.... the SEC do, but they just happen to employ a teacher from that school to oversee it.

Thanks evolving doors, i appreciate the feedback.

It sounds odd that a state employed principal would have such wide personal discretion in relation to who can sit a state exam in a state school outside the school year. I'd totally understand a principal having the authority to deny someone who had previously been expelled or there were some other objective grounds but I don't understand the type of discretion you described. If there is capacity and no objective grounds for declining why should a child be declined? I really hope the process isn't as prejudicial as that!!

rainbowtrout

This is one of my biggest bugbears in education. I hate seeing kids going off to a grind/fee paying school for the year because the local school isn't good enough, but then expecting to use that local school's resources for their own convenience when it suits them.

If he managed to get to his fee paying school all year why can't he do that in June?

54and56

rainbowtrout wrote: »

This is one of my biggest bugbears in education. I hate seeing kids going off to a grind/fee paying school for the year because the local school isn't good enough, but then expecting to use that local schools resources for their own convenience when it suits them.

If he managed to get to his fee paying school all year why can't he do that in June?

Your assumption that someone attends a school other than his local non fee paying school because his local school "isn't good enough" is wrong as is your assertion that it is just for one year. There are many reasons why a child may be sent to a different school.

If a few kids sitting at available desks in a school other than the one they attended to sit their exams is one of your biggest bugbears in relation to education you must lead a charmed life.

Qwerty?

To be fair, the Principal and the BOM's priority is for their current students... not the student of another school. Introducing a new student during the state Exams could be a distraction for the students sitting the exams and who knows, may cause minor distress to one of the current students. Not ideal or fair to them on the 1st day of their exams.

rainbowtrout

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

Your assumption that someone attends a school other than his local non fee paying school because his local school "isn't good enough" is wrong as is your assertion that it is just for one year. There are many reasons why a child may be sent to a different school.

If a few kids sitting at available desks in a school other than the one they attended to sit their exams is one of your biggest bugbears in relation to education you must lead a charmed life.

Well even more so, if they have attended another school for several years, why can't they finish out their education there for the exams?

54and56

Qwerty? wrote: »

To be fair, the Principal and the BOM's priority is for their current students... not the student of another school. Introducing a new student during the state Exams could be a distraction for the students sitting the exams and who knows, may cause minor distress to one of the current students. Not ideal or fair to them on the 1st day of their exams.

Ok, I get your point, I think it's fairly abstract but fair enough, let's call it the "prevention of minor distress" policy.

Slightly different scenario.

Child leaves his local school after junior cert, has a good attendance and disciplinary record etc and remains good friends with his old classmates but his parents decide to home school him for the leaving cert cycle.

Where does he sit his Leaving Cert exam if all schools adopt the "prevention of minor distress" policy?

54and56

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Well even more so, if they have attended another school for several years, why can't they finish out their education there for the exams?

Because it involves an hours travel each way so two hours a day which delivers no benefit to the child when he could take the exam at a state exam centre 5 minutes away.

If there's capacity in the local school why, other than sitting the "prevention of minor distress" policy, would a principal or BOM deny a child access to a local exam centre?

The only reason i can think of is pettyness and vindictivness which i wouldn't associate as being qualities found in professional educators or BOM's.

rainbowtrout

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

Because it involves an hours travel each way so two hours a day which delivers no benefit to the child when he could take the exam at a state exam centre 5 minutes away.

If there's capacity in the local school why, other than sitting the "prevention of minor distress" policy, would a principal or BOM deny a child access to a local exam centre?

The only reason i can think of is pettyness and vindictivness which i wouldn't associate as being qualities found in professional educators or BOM's.

Because there are plenty of parents out there willing to use and abuse the resources of the local school but don't support the school by sending their children there. If the student has taken an unusual combination of subjects that are not offered in the local school it can involve opening up the school for exam days just for that one student. And also there are students/parents who try to game the system, who think by sending their kid to a 'better' school but getting them to sit their exams in a 'poorer' local school that their exam paper will stand out among the 'local riff-raff', and that they will get better results. The fact that all papers are marked on the same marking scheme has nothing to do with it of course.

This also extends to students leaving to go to a school an hour away, but then deciding they want to sit their orals, music or woodwork or home ec practicals etc in the local school for their own convenience/ to go grade shopping. I've seen this happen in my own school, when the student who wants to do this would otherwise be attending the other school on any other given school day and for which orals/practicals are scheduled.

And there is the argument you have put forth yourself that it's a waste of his time travelling for two hours every day to and from his current school, but presumably if he left his local one after JC, he's been doing just that for the last two years, and it hasn't been considered a waste?

spurious

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

Child leaves his local school after junior cert, has a good attendance and disciplinary record etc and remains good friends with his old classmates but his parents decide to home school him for the leaving cert cycle.

Where does he sit his Leaving Cert exam if all schools adopt the "prevention of minor distress" policy?

Home schooled children would apply as external candidates. There are a number of large external centres they could be accommodated at, or if they wanted to try a local school, they might be accommodated there, but the local school's first priority is their own students, as stated elsewhere.

The SEC are not fond of added expense, which is often the over-riding factor.

54and56

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Because there are plenty of parents out there willing to use and abuse the resources of the local school but don't support the school by sending their children there.

Wow, you really sound like you've a serious chip on your shoulder rainbowtrout. How is sitting a state exam in state exam centre A instead if state exam centre B using and abusing a local school when during the exams it isn't even operating as a local school as the school year is over?

rainbowtrout wrote: »

If the student has taken an unusual combination of subjects that are not offered in the local school it can involve opening up the school for exam days just for that one student.

Hypothetical I guess but possible and it's an exam centre when hosting the LC/JC exams not a school. If teachers are hosting classes and students are learning it's a school.

rainbowtrout wrote: »

And also there are students/parents who try to game the system, who think by sending their kid to a 'better' school but getting them to sit their exams in a 'poorer' local school that their exam paper will stand out among the 'local riff-raff', and that they will get better results. The fact that all papers are marked on the same marking scheme has nothing to do with it of course.

This also extends to students leaving to go to a school an hour away, but then deciding they want to sit their orals, music or woodwork or home ec practicals etc in the local school for their own convenience/ to go grade shopping. I've seen this happen in my own school, when the student who wants to do this would otherwise be attending the other school on any other given school day and for which orals/practicals are scheduled.

Hadn't heard the term "grade shopping" before. It sounds interesting but then as you say yourself "all papers are marked on the same marking scheme has nothing to do with it of course" so which is it? Are all papers marked the same in which case grade shopping doesn't exist or not?

rainbowtrout wrote: »

And there is the argument you have put forth yourself that it's a waste of his time travelling for two hours every day to and from his current school, but presumably if he left his local one after JC, he's been doing just that for the last two years, and it hasn't been considered a waste?

And there again is the difference in understanding between a school and an exam centre.

Travelling an hour to a different school where a student is receiving an education more suited to their needs is entirely different to travelling to an exam centre where the exact same exam papers are set. The child received enough additional benefit from being educated in the non local school to warrant two hours travel per day. There is no benefit to the child travelling two hours a day to attend a state exam centre when the exact same exam can be sat at a local state exam centre.

54and56

spurious wrote: »

Home schooled children would apply as external candidates. There are a number of large external centres they could be accommodated at

Thanks spurious, that's very helpful.

randylonghorn

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

Hypothetical I guess but possible and it's an exam centre when hosting the LC/JC exams not a school. If teachers are hosting classes and students are learning it's a school.

It may be an exam centre, but it's still the school principal / staff who have to open up the school / be around during exams.

School staff take that as a normal part of their work for the exams in the subjects the school offers ... but why would they be interested in taking on the extra work of opening up for a student they don't even know and have no responsibility to if he has taken subjects the school does not offer?

For that matter, the SEC won't be all that pleased if they are asked to pay a superintendent to supervise one student who is not even from that school. Why would they?

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

There is no benefit to the child travelling two hours a day to attend a state exam centre when the exact same exam can be sat at a local state exam centre.

Fair enough, I take your point ... although it can be reassuring for students to have the group they have been with all year around them, especially before the exam.

But you would do well to get it into your head before approaching schools that you are basically looking for a favour, not exercising a right, and approach them accordingly. They may still say no, but you might have a better chance.

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

... whether he is entitled to sit the Leaving Cert exams at an exam centre of his choice ...

No, he is not.

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

... whether he is obliged to sit the exams at the school he currently attends ....

That would be the expectation, unless alternative arrangements are in place.

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

... whether he has the right to sit the exams at the exam centre closest to his home?

No, he doesn't.

That's the reality, and you're probably best to start approaching local schools as soon as possible.

This thread could go in circles for the next week, but it won't change anything or bring you one inch closer to your goal.

54and56

Hi Randylonghorn, thanks for joining the discussion.

randylonghorn wrote: »

It may be an exam centre, but it's still the school principal / staff who have to open up the school / be around during exams.

Which I guess is what they are being paid to do whether there is one student or 250 students sitting the JC/LC exams. Not sure the relevance of that statement but I accept it.

randylonghorn wrote: »

School staff take that as a normal part of their work for the exams in the subjects the school offers ... but why would they be interested in taking on the extra work of opening up for a student they don't even know and have no responsibility to if he has taken subjects the school does not offer?

Not an issue in my case, no "exotic" subjects to be catered for.

randylonghorn wrote: »

For that matter, the SEC won't be all that pleased if they are asked to pay a superintendent to supervise one student who is not even from that school. Why would they?

Again not relevant but point taken.

randylonghorn wrote: »

Fair enough, I take your point ... although it can be reassuring for students to have the group they have been with all year around them, especially before the exam.

True. This was actually discussed with my son and he feels that on balance the convenience of sitting the LC locally would outweigh the inconvenience of not mingling with classmates before the exam. IIRC one of the points he made was that his group of pals who are also sitting the LC will continue to communicate via their WhatsApp group before and after each exam regardless of their respective locations.

randylonghorn wrote: »

But you would do well to get it into your head before approaching schools that you are basically looking for a favour, not exercising a right, and approach them accordingly. They may still say no, but you might have a better chance.

Your assumption that I'm approaching local schools on the basis of exercising a right is incorrect. The purpose of this discussion is to gather the relevant info and then proceed on the basis of the accepted practice or protocol. I'm not interested in or looking to force change or break protocol regardless of whether I agree or disagree with it.

randylonghorn wrote: »

No, he is not.

Grand, thanks for clarifying.

randylonghorn wrote: »

That's the reality, and you're probably best to start approaching local schools as soon as possible.

Good advice, thank you.

randylonghorn wrote: »

This thread could go in circles for the next week, but it won't change anything or bring you one inch closer to your goal.

Well I now understand that schools have absolute discretion over whether they allow an external pupil who had not studied there for the LC to sit the LC and there is no formal application process or decision criteria. The school can leave it entirely up to the Principal to decide (on whatever grounds he/she deems fit) on a case by case basis or it can have a blanket policy of not accepting any students regardless of circumstances or merit.

The pro's and con's of such a system can be debated but it won't positively or negatively affect things for LC 2019 so would therefore be hypothetical and unproductive in my case certainly and not something I'm interested in spending time on either.

randylonghorn

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

Which I guess is what they are being paid to do whether there is one student or 250 students sitting the JC/LC exams. Not sure the relevance of that statement but I accept it.

They are being paid to look after their own students, and only their own students. And most teachers genuinely do feel a real sense of responsibility for and to their own students, above and beyond and transcending the "paid to" bit.

In this instance, your son is .. well, an outsider, a stranger, a passer-by as far as the local schools are concerned. They will feel no responsibility to him, and tbh, there is no reason why they should.

I've argued plenty with secondary teachers over the years, there are certain common assumptions and attitudes which frustrate the hell out of me, but honestly ... I can't argue with them on this one. They owe no responsibility to your son. You are relying totally on the kindness of heart of the local principal, and on the exam hall not being already over-crowded, and on him / her feeling 100% confident that your son will in no way be a disruption to the students who s/he does feel a sense of responsibility to ...

Walk softly, for you walk on a principal's already over-strained nerves ...

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

Not an issue in my case, no "exotic" subjects to be catered for.

Excellent, one major obstacle out of the way.

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

True. This was actually discussed with my son and he feels that on balance the convenience of sitting the LC locally would outweigh the inconvenience of not mingling with classmates before the exam. IIRC one of the points he made was that his group of pals who are also sitting the LC will continue to communicate via their WhatsApp group before and after each exam regardless of their respective locations.

Excellent. You get a gold star.

Ok, I'm being slightly facetious, but the reality is that every year I see parents get twice as het-up as the actual students sitting the exams, and while they always genuinely try to do the very best possible for their sons / daughters, they often forget to ask the people most involved what they think / want ... coz, after all, Mom & Dad know best.

So, albeit tongue-in-cheek, you do get the gold star for not falling into that trap.

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

Your assumption that I'm approaching local schools on the basis of exercising a right is incorrect.

It was less an assumption and more a fear based on the tone of some of your replies in this thread ...

I'm more than happy to be slapped down and assured that I have the wrong end of the stick.

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

... and not something I'm interested in spending time on either.

Excellent.

As we might have said in my (very) culchie youth ... now we're sucking diesel!!!!

skooterblue2

Qwerty? wrote: »

Introducing a new student during the state Exams could be a distraction for the students sitting the exams and who knows, may cause minor distress to one of the current students. Not ideal or fair to them on the 1st day of their exams.

Well there is this thing going on called life. Y'know the part when you grow up develop character, move out, move away from home get a job, change job, get a boy/girl friend, break up with affore mentioned boy/girl friend. Go out get drunk and have a hang over. Buy a 48" LCD TV.

If they cant cope with that how are they going to cope with real stuff like, losing a job, bankruptcy, trying for a mortgage. Kind of puts it in perspective.

evolving_doors

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Well there is this thing going on called life. Y'know the part when you grow up develop character, move out, move away from home get a job, change job, get a boy/girl friend, break up with affore mentioned boy/girl friend. Go out get drunk and have a hang over. Buy a 48" LCD TV.

If they cant cope with that how are they going to cope with real stuff like, losing a job, bankruptcy, trying for a mortgage. Kind of puts it in perspective.

That's a lot to do for a student just before they head into English Paper 1.

54and56

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Well there is this thing going on called life. Y'know the part when you grow up develop character, move out, move away from home get a job, change job, get a boy/girl friend, break up with affore mentioned boy/girl friend. Go out get drunk and have a hang over. Buy a 48" LCD TV.

If they cant cope with that how are they going to cope with real stuff like, losing a job, bankruptcy, trying for a mortgage. Kind of puts it in perspective.

You're correct of course.

Qwerty? wrote: »

Introducing a new student during the state Exams could be a distraction for the students sitting the exams and who knows, may cause minor distress to one of the current students. Not ideal or fair to them on the 1st day of their exams.

To even think up this sort of snowflake argument is just embarrassing and not really worth engaging with, it's total BS. I recall doing entrance exams aged 11 in a strange school (the secondary school I was applying to back in the day) surrounded by a combination of school friends from my class who were also seeking to attend that school and complete strangers who were from other schools and don't recall the thought that anyone could possibly be distracted or being caused minor stress entering anyone's head.

Some people find a strange form of comfort or satisfaction making up pathetic reasons not to do things, it's a sad character trait and must be a blight on their lives but c'est la vie.

JustMe,K

You might have more luck contacting places that offer repeat LC courses in your area than the local secondary schools