Winter Rules query

billy3sheets

When taking relief under winter rules, can you replace your ball on better ground?

So, assuming that the ball is never replaced nearer the hole and is moved within the allowed distance:

1. On closely mowed areas, such as the fringe of the green, can you place the ball on the green?

2. In the rough, can you drop your ball on fairway?

I know that winter rules are local rules, but what's the standard for the above scenarios?

ShivasIrons

billy3sheets wrote: »

When taking relief under winter rules, can you replace your ball on better ground?

So, assuming that the ball is never replaced nearer the hole and is moved within the allowed distance:

1. On closely mowed areas, such as the fringe of the green, can you place the ball on the green?

2. In the rough, can you drop your ball on fairway?

I know that winter rules are local rules, but what's the standard for the above scenarios?

You can’t move to the green but you can move from fairway to rough and vice versa.

Bottle

I always thought that if you are in the rough then when dropping / placing it would need to be in the rough or else you would be getting an advantage. At least that is the concept at our club.

Golfhead65

Bottle wrote: »

I always thought that if you are in the rough then when dropping / placing it would need to be in the rough or else you would be getting an advantage. At least that is the concept at our club.

Rightly so as I'd consider placing or dropping in the fairway when you hit in the rough a form of cheating, Does your club have a " within 6 inches or scorecard width" relief ?? A club I know of plays club length relief ! Sure you'd never be in trouble

redzerdrog

I think the new rules state with one clublenght for preferred lies

slave1

Preferred lies for the pros is club length and they drop from rough to fairway, the new rules give a club length as an example but also 6 inches or a scorecard, rule E3, and you can drop in any general area so perfectly fine to take advantage and drop from rough to fairway

AhHaor

Something that I always wondered was if you were on a path and taking relief, if your nearest point of relief plus club length got you on the fairway is it ok to drop and then if you're the farthest up the fairway in a long drive comp can you move the board and be the new leader?

fred funk }{

AhHaor wrote: »

Something that I always wondered was if you were on a path and taking relief, if your nearest point of relief plus club length got you on the fairway is it ok to drop and then if you're the farthest up the fairway in a long drive comp can you move the board and be the new leader?

Longest drive is a non competitive/social golf thing and they can use any rules they want. When there's a long drive comp its normally a friendly comp and it wouldn't be in the spirit of the game to argue your point.

For what it's worth, I wouldn't allow it if I had a say.

billy3sheets

Golfhead65 wrote: »

Rightly so as I'd consider placing or dropping in the fairway when you hit in the rough a form of cheating, Does your club have a " within 6 inches or scorecard width" relief ?? A club I know of plays club length relief ! Sure you'd never be in trouble

Well, there's the spirit of the game versus the rules of the game. If the local rule does not explicitly state that the ball must be placed on similar ground, then you can't be accused of breaking a rule or cheating. There are many rules which can be used to your advantage without breaking them.
With a club length relief in the rough, most people would use this to take a tree out of their line for example.

On Sunday, my ball was 2 inches off the green. I had opportunity place it on the green further from the hole and within the 6 inches allowed. Because of where it was relative to the pin, it would have given me considerable advantage of not having to putt over a load of fringe. I consulted with my playing partners and at least 1 was adamant that wasn't allowed, so I didn't place my ball on the green. Club Pro later confirmed that it wasn't allowed. I doubt it's written down though.

slave1

In our society for Longest Drive it must come to rest on the fairway from the tee shot and I've never heard of anyone trying to drop a longest drive from rough to fairway

Russman

billy3sheets wrote: »

On Sunday, my ball was 2 inches off the green. I had opportunity place it on the green further from the hole and within the 6 inches allowed. Because of where it was relative to the pin, it would have given me considerable advantage of not having to putt over a load of fringe. I consulted with my playing partners and at least 1 was adamant that wasn't allowed, so I didn't place my ball on the green. Club Pro later confirmed that it wasn't allowed. I doubt it's written down though.

Not sure if this is covered in the new rules, but I think/am fairly sure it was always ok to move your ball anywhere, as long as it was within the permitted distance i.e. a scorecard, club length, 6 inches etc. So you could go from rough to semi, semi to fairway, fringe to green etc.

BraveDonut

Somewhat related question -

Under winter rules where you can lift, clean and place:
you have placed your ball and it either moves or you are not fully happy with how it sits, can you lift it again an replace it as long as it is within the original 6 inches?

fred funk }{

BraveDonut wrote: »

Somewhat related question -

Under winter rules where you can lift, clean and place:
you have placed your ball and it either moves or you are not fully happy with how it sits, can you lift it again an replace it as long as it is within the original 6 inches?

There are no standard winter rules. Each club will have a variation of them. It's non-qualifying golf so the club can make up any rule they want. Ask your club, no?

ShivasIrons

BraveDonut wrote: »

Somewhat related question -

Under winter rules where you can lift, clean and place:
you have placed your ball and it either moves or you are not fully happy with how it sits, can you lift it again an replace it as long as it is within the original 6 inches?

No, when the ball is placed it's back in play, placing it again is a penalty

lawred2

Golfhead65 wrote: »

Rightly so as I'd consider placing or dropping in the fairway when you hit in the rough a form of cheating, Does your club have a " within 6 inches or scorecard width" relief ?? A club I know of plays club length relief ! Sure you'd never be in trouble

yeah but does the groundskeeper want you taking large divots out of heavy sodden rough

I would doubt it

Russman

BraveDonut wrote: »

Somewhat related question -

Under winter rules where you can lift, clean and place:
you have placed your ball and it either moves or you are not fully happy with how it sits, can you lift it again an replace it as long as it is within the original 6 inches?

I actually had some correspondence with the rules bodies about this (granted it was a year or two ago so under the old rules).
Assuming your club is/was using the sample local rule as per the appendices in the rule book, the ball is in play as soon as its at rest after you've placed it. If you're not happy with where its placed that's just too bad unfortunately. If you place it and it rolls when you let it go then it was never at rest and you have to replace it. If you let go and its stationery for a bit and then rolls, its in play and must be played as it lies.

Montgolfier

billy3sheets wrote: »

Well, there's the spirit of the game versus the rules of the game. If the local rule does not explicitly state that the ball must be placed on similar ground, then you can't be accused of breaking a rule or cheating. There are many rules which can be used to your advantage without breaking them.
With a club length relief in the rough, most people would use this to take a tree out of their line for example.

On Sunday, my ball was 2 inches off the green. I had opportunity place it on the green further from the hole and within the 6 inches allowed. Because of where it was relative to the pin, it would have given me considerable advantage of not having to putt over a load of fringe. I consulted with my playing partners and at least 1 was adamant that wasn't allowed, so I didn't place my ball on the green. Club Pro later confirmed that it wasn't allowed. I doubt it's written down though.

You asked the pro? It's one thing saying it's not allowed, did he show you the rule in black and white. If it's a local rule it should be written down.
In normal situations when you have relief you can drop it on rough, fairway, fringe, or green.

slave1

Russman wrote: »

.. If you let go and its stationery for a bit and then rolls, its in play and must be played as it lies.

Pretty sure the new rules are that if this happens on the green the ball must be replaced without penalty and not played from where the ball rolled to

HighLine

Guys just to note that there is a difference between local winter rules for individual clubs and the actual rules of golf.

With regards to placing/dropping your ball in rough/semi/fairway... we had our winter rules last year stating that if you marked and cleaned your ball in semi-rough, then you could not replace it on the fairway.. and vice versa. This however has been changed this year after being advised to do so.
So now if a player wants to clean and place his ball, he must mark the ball and replace it within 6 inches no nearer the hole. There is no distinction between rough/semi/fairway.

Russman

slave1 wrote: »

Pretty sure the new rules are that if this happens on the green the ball must be replaced without penalty and not played from where the ball rolled to

Yep, I think they do alright.

Bottle

BraveDonut wrote:

Under winter rules where you can lift, clean and place: you have placed your ball and it either moves or you are not fully happy with how it sits, can you lift it again an replace it as long as it is within the original 6 inches?

Don't think so. The following is from Golf Monthly;

Typically, you only get one chance at placing the ball and once you let go of it, it is in play. However, if the ball fails to come to rest at all on the spot you have carefully chosen, you may try again on that spot and if it still fails to come to rest “place it at the nearest spot where it can be placed at rest that is not nearer the hole and not in a hazard.†But be warned, if you place it on the most inviting tuft and it does initially come to rest, but then falls off or moves before you play, there is no penalty but you must now play it as it lies. In such circumstances, if you pick your ball up and place it again, you will incur a penalty stroke for moving your ball in play and must replace the ball under Rule 18-2a – i.e. put it back in the spot where it had rolled or moved to...

billy3sheets

HighLine wrote: »

Guys just to note that there is a difference between local winter rules for individual clubs and the actual rules of golf.

With regards to placing/dropping your ball in rough/semi/fairway... we had our winter rules last year stating that if you marked and cleaned your ball in semi-rough, then you could not replace it on the fairway.. and vice versa. This however has been changed this year after being advised to do so.
So now if a player wants to clean and place his ball, he must mark the ball and replace it within 6 inches no nearer the hole. There is no distinction between rough/semi/fairway.

So nothing to say you can't improve your ground?

HighLine

billy3sheets wrote: »

So nothing to say you can't improve your ground?

Yeah exactly.. so if you mark your ball in the semi-rough and fairway grass is within 6 inches, you can place it on fairway.

Hoboo

BraveDonut wrote: »

Somewhat related question -

Under winter rules where you can lift, clean and place:
you have placed your ball and it either moves or you are not fully happy with how it sits, can you lift it again an replace it as long as it is within the original 6 inches?

No. Once it's placed, it can't be touched again until after the stroke is taken. Rule 20-4.

billy3sheets

So reading p143 of the R&A rule book under Course Conditions, it clearly defines what is recommended for a winter rule covering closely-mown areas but not in the rough.

b. “Preferred Lies” and “Winter Rules”
Ground under repair is provided for in Rule 25, and occasional local
abnormal conditions that might interfere with fair play and are not
widespread should be defined as ground under repair.
However, adverse conditions, such as heavy snows, spring thaws,
prolonged rains or extreme heat can make fairways unsatisfactory
and sometimes prevent use of heavy mowing equipment. When these
conditions are so general throughout a course that the Committee
believes “preferred lies” or “winter rules” would promote fair play
or help protect the course, the following Local Rule (which should be
withdrawn as soon as conditions warrant) is recommended:
“A ball lying on a closely-mown area through the green (or specify
a more restricted area, e.g. at the 6th hole) may be lifted without
penalty and cleaned. Before lifting the ball, the player must mark
its position. Having lifted the ball, he must place it on a spot within (specify area, e.g. six inches, one club-length, etc.) of and not nearer
the hole than where it originally lay, that is not in a hazard and not on
a putting green.

Note: “Closely-mown area” means any area of the course, including
paths through the rough, cut to fairway height or less.

So, that would answer the 1st part of my query - you can not place on the green.

slave1

Well you're quoting the "old" rules there so that kind of mutes your point as every single rule has either been reworded or changed as of January 1st so referencing pre 19 rules is dodgy.

HighLine

Well the new Preferred Lies local rule given by the R&A is more or less the same. I've quoted it below in full with the important part in bold. They give limits of the relief area and specifically include "general area" (old "through the green") and as we know, the general area does not include the green of the hole being played.

When a player's ball lies in a part of the general area cut to fairway height or less or identify a specific area such as 'on the fairway of the 6th hole', the player may take free relief once by placing the original ball or another ball in and playing it from this relief area:

Reference Point: Spot of the original ball.
Size of Relief Area Measured from Reference Point: Specify size of relief area, such as one club-length, one scorecard length or 6 inches from the reference point, but with these limits:
Limits on Location of Relief Area:
Must not be nearer the hole than the reference point, and
Must be in the general area.
In proceeding under this Local Rule, the player must choose a spot to place the ball and use the procedures for replacing a ball under Rules 14.2b(2) and 14.2e.

billy3sheets

slave1 wrote: »

Well you're quoting the "old" rules there so that kind of mutes your point as every single rule has either been reworded or changed as of January 1st so referencing pre 19 rules is dodgy.

OOps - sorry about that. Picked up a cached pdf version without checking.

But as @HighLine points out, the wording is similar in latest version.

So, my understanding is:
1. You can't take relief by moving your ball onto the green
2. No distinction between the heavy rough, light rough or the fairway when taking relief in the general area, so you could take relief onto the fairway from the rough.