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Buying a diesel car

  • 05-01-2019 3:14pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,239 ✭✭✭


    Hi,

    We are in the market to buy a new car.

    I've heard so many rumblings that diesel will be banned within a few years as the European Commission want to reduce pollution and harmful emissions.

    I've read that a few major cities are considering outright bans on diesel from city centres.

    My wife believes that I'm being too dramatic and that diesel cars will survive for decades. The car dealer says diesels will be NCTed until 2050.

    I guess my question is: what is the likelihood of a complete ban on diesels in Ireland over the next ten years (the life of a car)?


Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 51,411 ✭✭✭✭bazz26


    Very unlikely. You will be fine.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,123 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    The UK and most of Europe are not buying new diesels and can't sell 2nd ones, unless the Paddies come over for the bargain. They are also banning older low Euro regulation engines, both petrol and diesel, from cities and towns now.

    So since we are a few years behind I'd say that the diesel will last a few more years here before they stop selling.

    But if you plan on keeping a car for 10 years, which is the frame you have asked about , in this country the car is essentially worthless regardless of the propulsion method. The only issue is that the NCT will get sticker on the removal of the anti pollution equipment from cars so consider the cost of replacing these if you don't treat the diesel right.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,239 ✭✭✭Jimbob1977


    Let's say that diesels were banned outright in the coming five years.

    Would the Government be obliged establish some kind of 'Diesel Compensation Scheme' for the residual value.... or would it be tough luck?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭racso1975


    Jimbob1977 wrote: »
    Let's say that diesels were banned outright in the coming five years.

    Would the Government be obliged establish some kind of 'Diesel Compensation Scheme' for the residual value.... or would it be tough luck?

    Well there was no compensation scheme for everyone that bought a car in 07 when the revamped the tax in 08 causing a huge drop in their cars value. So I'd highly doubt


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,929 ✭✭✭✭ShadowHearth


    Jimbob1977 wrote: »
    Let's say that diesels were banned outright in the coming five years.

    Would the Government be obliged establish some kind of 'Diesel Compensation Scheme' for the residual value.... or would it be tough luck?

    I could see some scrapage system implemented, but it will be **** all good to you if you bought brand new diesel 2 years ago and they giving you 2k scrapage against new hybrid car.

    I always think about future and what will I do for my next car and one thing for sure, when I change my car in 2020, I will not buy brand new diesel, but I would consider second hand diesel at very good discounted value.
    Then again, dealers are always sneaky as ****. They will give you now very low trade in value for your diesel car as no one wants them, but the diesel car that is in their lot is still highly priced and better.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,027 ✭✭✭Lantus


    Talk is banning in cities or of outright bans on new sales of ice cars from 2030 onwards. But this could easily change and likely will.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,528 ✭✭✭✭colm_mcm


    Yeah but in Ireland though, they couldn’t - to quote Bishop Brennan - organize a nun shoot in a nunnery.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,731 ✭✭✭✭drunkmonkey


    I'd say she's she's right, it's a lofy goal to have new diesel and petrol cars banned from 2030. There is no way they infrastructure will be in place to handle the national fleet.
    The first step would be to encourage business to move from diesel. So far the government have done nothing to encourange anyone out of diesel. Vat is still reclaimable on diesel if they were serious they would have switched that rule to petrol already.
    It's the same as cigarettes there too addicted to revenue being generated otherwise they'd already be banned.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,909 ✭✭✭✭CJhaughey


    FFS a forward thinking and rich country like Norway is having trouble keeping its electric fleet running due to insufficient generation capacity, what hope do the rest of us have?
    Any Politician can trot out a line about banning ICE by 2030 but when the reality hits I bet there will be .......slippage.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,929 ✭✭✭✭ShadowHearth


    CJhaughey wrote: »
    FFS a forward thinking and rich country like Norway is having trouble keeping its electric fleet running due to insufficient generation capacity, what hope do the rest of us have?
    Any Politician can trot out a line about banning ICE by 2030 but when the reality hits I bet there will be .......slippage.

    Is that an actual fact? Anything to back to up? Genuinely interested and it is a good point. All these countries blabing about going full EV in such short period of time, but where will all that energy come from?
    Now I am no expert when it comes to electricity, but wont they need to upgrade whole grid on top of making a lot more energy to feed all that demand?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,321 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Here's the actual facts.


    Diesel sales are down.

    Your carem should you buy a diesel will have a lower trade value thus hitting you in the pocket.

    My advice look at what's happening in he market and buy an efficient petrol car.

    The figures don't lie. You'll be taking the hit. I have a diesel and I've counted on it being worth f all. If buying new I'd not buy a diesel simple as that.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,321 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Is that an actual fact? Anything to back to up? Genuinely interested and it is a good point. All these countries blabing about going full EV in such short period of time, but where will all that energy come from?
    Now I am no expert when it comes to electricity, but wont they need to upgrade whole grid on top of making a lot more energy to feed all that demand?




    That's not a fact. Just to be clear. Look at Norway's sales of diesels over the last five years.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,066 ✭✭✭Casati


    listermint wrote: »
    Here's the actual facts.


    Diesel sales are down.

    Your carem should you buy a diesel will have a lower trade value thus hitting you in the pocket.

    My advice look at what's happening in he market and buy an efficient petrol car.

    The figures don't lie. You'll be taking the hit. I have a diesel and I've counted on it being worth f all. If buying new I'd not buy a diesel simple as that.

    I would disagree with the logic that because new sales are down that secondhand values will also be down, that is far too simplistic. Other posters also claiming nobody is buying diesel are also factually wrong, last year 6m diesels were sold in Europe. The reality is of course all new cars lose value over time but diesels are not being given away anywhere

    You need to weigh up the type of driving you do and buy the most appropriate car taking into account price, economy etc. eg I think you’d be mad to spend a few grand more buying a 520i versus a 520d regardless of the drive you do, but equally you’d probably not need to work out if its worth spending 3k extra in a diesel Octavia versus a petrol.

    What type of driving do you do, what do you need from and what cars / price range are you thinking about?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 51,411 ✭✭✭✭bazz26


    There are some interesting stats from the SIMI website behind the facts: Yes the gap between "brand new" diesel v petrol sales is narrowing because there is more alternative choice now in brand new non diesel cars. But new car sales across the board in general are down here on the previous year. And if you dig further, we imported just over 100k cars from the UK in 2018 and around 75% of those were diesel so that suggests to me that a lot of people bought bought nearly new cars in the UK rather than brand new in Ireland.

    Figures available on beepbeep.ie if you don't want to believe me.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,528 ✭✭✭✭colm_mcm


    listermint wrote: »
    Here's the actual facts.


    Diesel sales are down.
    Yes they are. Partly because many manufacturers had no credible petrol offerings, smaller capacity turbocharged petrols and hybrids are being sold to those who’s driving suits them, it’s great to see, for a long time, people were railroaded into diesel, and petrol wasn’t competitive with high tax and no saving on purchase price vs diesel. In the meantime manufacturers have reestablished a price gap.
    listermint wrote: »
    Your carem should you buy a diesel will have a lower trade value thus hitting you in the pocket.

    My advice look at what's happening in he market and buy an efficient petrol car.
    What’s happening in the market isn’t a shunning of diesel, more a situation where the customer has more choice. There is no indication that diesel cars will have a lower resale than petrol cars. That’s not happening now either.
    listermint wrote: »
    The figures don't lie. You'll be taking the hit. I have a diesel and I've counted on it being worth f all. If buying new I'd not buy a diesel simple as that.
    The sales figures or some other figures?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 66,225 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Jimbob1977 wrote: »
    I guess my question is: what is the likelihood of a complete ban on diesels in Ireland over the next ten years (the life of a car)?

    Zero chance of a nationwide ban on diesels.

    And if you are planning to keep your brand new car for 10 years, you will not suffer any accelerated depreciation on diesels when EVs go mainstream in the next few years. You'll be fine

    One thing of concern, probably only if you live in the Dublin region and commute into Dublin city centre, is a potential ban of (older) diesels from there. Nothing on the cards just yet, but these bans have happened very suddenly in other European countries.

    Out of interest though, is there a particular reason you must buy a diesel car?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,239 ✭✭✭Jimbob1977


    unkel wrote: »

    Out of interest though, is there a particular reason you must buy a diesel car?

    We live in a rural area on the outskirts of Limerick. Occasionally we drive to Dublin.

    It's down to diesel prices and fuel efficiency. Diesels are very common around here.

    We're not totally beholden to diesel and would consider petrol cars. Although my wife seems to be obsessed with diesels :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,909 ✭✭✭✭CJhaughey


    This article suggests that Norway does have a problem and will have to invest in the grid to keep up with EV growth.
    https://evobsession.com/norwegian-grid-struggling-keep-growing-ev-fleet/


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 66,225 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Don't want to go off topic here, but of course the grid will need to be upgraded over the next few decades as all / most of the energy we use will move from fossil to electric. In Ireland's case it's a fairly soft landing as most EVs are charged at night, when we already have overcapacity in the grid a lot of the time


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,123 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    bazz26 wrote: »
    There are some interesting stats from the SIMI website behind the facts: Yes the gap between "brand new" diesel v petrol sales is narrowing because there is more alternative choice now in brand new non diesel cars. But new car sales across the board in general are down here on the previous year. And if you dig further, we imported just over 100k cars from the UK in 2018 and around 75% of those were diesel so that suggests to me that a lot of people bought bought nearly new cars in the UK rather than brand new in Ireland.

    Figures available on beepbeep.ie if you don't want to believe me.

    The reason for the huge amount of 2nd hand diesel is because they are cheap in the UK because people are not buying them and Sterling being weak only increases the value for us.

    Another issue is that the age of cars being brought in are from the time that diesel was hugely popular so even in the UK petrol cars were rare and hence there won't be many available. Does anybody have the stats on 2nd hand diesel vs petrol prices in the UK?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,066 ✭✭✭Casati


    Del2005 wrote: »
    The reason for the huge amount of 2nd hand diesel is because they are cheap in the UK because people are not buying them and Sterling being weak only increases the value for us.

    Another issue is that the age of cars being brought in are from the time that diesel was hugely popular so even in the UK petrol cars were rare and hence there won't be many available. Does anybody have the stats on 2nd hand diesel vs petrol prices in the UK?

    Any car available in both petrol and diesel are generally seeing similar depreciation levels. Eg 320i or 330e will lose 30% to 40% of value in the first year as they have for the last ten years.

    It’s low sterling is driving demand for UK imports.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 42 Dillosk412


    A lot of the scaremongering is by people who don't think through the question.

    Diesel car sales were way too high for what the market dictated because people previously believed all the nonsense about petrol engines and went hell for leather for diesel - but many simply did not do the mileage to warrant it.

    That now sees a glut of 4/5 year old diesels on top of media scare mongering.

    Diesel is going nowhere in the next ten years for high mileage drivers.

    If you do 30,000+++ km a year, it's the only option. If you are doing 20,000km a year or less, it's not an option.

    20k-30k, it's whatever suits you best.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,528 ✭✭✭✭colm_mcm


    Dillosk412 wrote: »
    A lot of the scaremongering is by people who don't think through the question.


    If you do 30,000+++ km a year, it's the only option. If you are doing 20,000km a year or less, it's not an option.

    20k-30k, it's whatever suits you best.

    That’s not strictly true. People that do lower mileage don’t necessarily do shorter journeys.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 471 ✭✭Turbohymac


    Depends entirely on your personal choice and annual mileage..but for me it would be a decent 6 month old TDI from the uk..especially with the weak and supposedly getting weaker sterling.. you could have a very decent uk car on the road here for 25k.. if your buying new here you'll have to put 10 more with the 25.. and absolutely no ..diesel vehicles will be still going strong on roads here in Ireland in 20 years easily..
    As my good wife says paper never refused ink..lots of scaremongering about and even the fact that almost as we speak every vehicle is or will in the extreme short term be electric... then they changed that trucks and heavy plant would have to run on lpg. But I do agree that if there was an instant outright ban on diesel the government definitely wouldn't give anything back to diesel owners..it would be same as the car tax charges back in 08..
    You'll get all types of advice from boards ..but for high mileage it's hard to beat a good modern diesel..


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 66,225 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Turbohymac wrote: »
    for high mileage it's hard to beat a good modern diesel..

    As Colm said, that depends on your driving pattern. I know people that drive 50k km just for their commute in an EV. They only charge their car at home

    Those people would save €4000 in fuel alone every year compared with a good modern diesel. Probably another couple of grand because almost zero maintenance cost, cheaper tax, cheaper insurance, cheaper tolls, etc.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 471 ✭✭Turbohymac


    Thanks unkel. But I read across a lot of forms and even many ev owners are regularly moaning about the trade in /resale value of their leafs etc. So no vehicle givesfree runningcosts. . nobody can deny that ev are still only being developed to come anywhere close to what. Mileage range fossil fuelled drivers would expect as an absolute minimum.. the best current ev probably wouldn't pass 400km in real driving conditions ..compared to an easy 1k from my old 2litre van. Absolutely the op could buy an ev depending on his exact requirements..but if he needs a decent allrounder I don't think there would be any ev to compare to a 6 month old passat 2litre .. and even if he could get an ev for 25k..what would its resale value be in even 5 years..as the evs are rapidly trying to upgrade and improve battery life.. ie a new ev today could be antiquated in 5 years time.. and very low resale..even factoring in fuel saving..but then again there even starting to charge for ev charging now so no free meals for any category of vehicle..
    But seeing that you're promoting the evs so much you'll have me driving one soon ..BUT must have a hitch..and a good few ton towing capacity..
    As for the op I'd listen to his wife..
    She definitely knows best !!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,656 ✭✭✭Wildly Boaring


    unkel wrote: »
    As Colm said, that depends on your driving pattern. I know people that drive 50k km just for their commute in an EV. They only charge their car at home

    Those people would save €4000 in fuel alone every year compared with a good modern diesel. Probably another couple of grand because almost zero maintenance cost, cheaper tax, cheaper insurance, cheaper tolls, etc.

    At 45mpg they'd save €2000 on their commute. The electricity to save €2000 on diesel is not free though.

    I'm all for EV and would love to get one. Their advantages are numerous.

    But they still have high initial cost, low range (for my use anyway) and are generally quite small cars. Also they cannot tow and I wouldn't like to be throwing a few kayaks or bikes on the roof just yet

    This will change and fast, look back 10 years and there were little to none here. But I reckon there's a good 10 years in diesels for the masses.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 66,225 ✭✭✭✭unkel




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,656 ✭✭✭Wildly Boaring


    unkel wrote: »


    :D
    Taken

    You cannot put a tow bar on a leaf.

    That rules out me, my dad, my father in law and both neighbours each side of me.

    I didn't know this until I met a guy at work in a new kuga. Had to renege on a done deal on a leaf as no hitch allowed by Nissan.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,733 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Taken

    You cannot put a tow bar on a leaf.

    That rules out me, my dad, my father in law and both neighbours each side of me.

    I didn't know this until I met a guy at work in a new kuga. Had to renege on a done deal on a leaf as no hitch allowed by Nissan.
    You can, they just don't want you to.
    https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1071297_want-to-tow-with-your-2012-nissan-leaf-now-you-can


    Model X come with tow bar.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,656 ✭✭✭Wildly Boaring


    ELM327 wrote: »
    You can, they just don't want you to.
    https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1071297_want-to-tow-with-your-2012-nissan-leaf-now-you-can


    Model X come with tow bar.

    Ah the model x. The car for the masses.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,528 ✭✭✭✭colm_mcm


    Ah the model x. The car for the masses.

    Try getting roof rack on one


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,733 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Ah the model x. The car for the masses.
    Did you read the link I posted about a leaf towbar? No?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,656 ✭✭✭Wildly Boaring


    ELM327 wrote: »
    Did you read the link I posted about a leaf towbar? No?

    Yep. Some boys have managed to bodge a hitch onto a leaf. Sure that's hardly rocket science.

    Quote from the article.....

    "But that doesn’t change the fact that Nissan never designed the Leaf for towing, and anyone deciding to fit a tow-hitch for towing duties does so at their own risk. While fitting a tow-hitch won’t automatically invalidate your car’s warranty, any faults directly caused by towing could cause a headache at your local Nissan dealer. "


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 66,225 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Leaf, Ioniq and most other current EVs are simply not rated / approved for towing. In which case you should never tow anything on the public road as you would not be insured for it (never mind the manufacturers warranty)


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 471 ✭✭Turbohymac


    Since the mod has an ev ..couldn't he just let a few of us TDI fans fit a non approved tow bar to his ev and try it out on the backroads with a nice well laden twin axle. Ifor Williams.. sure that Tesla was pictured towing a jet plane..the lead should handle a mere 3 ton no bother..
    Ah go on ..go on go on ×20 DO IT


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