Irish Racing-Corrupt?

ON ZEE BRIDLE

I really noticed this christmas alot of crap in Irish racing;cheating, non tryers, second/third string coming in, odds on favs drifting before the race(Limini).Then you have Ruby Walsh love in with Paddy Power which is just wrong.Is Irish racing that rotten or am I just being paranoid?!I mainly post on a Uk racing forum and I know the English posters think we are up to all sorts of shenanigans!Be interested to hear your thoughts-Thanks

BumperD

As regards the 2nd or 3 rd strings winning, in graded races, I put that down to the trainer cover all pace angles eg one might lead, another sits back and tries to come from behind if they go too hard in front. Sometimes it’s deliberate eg last years champion hurdle was a plot near pulled off to perfection. Generally, graded races are less susceptible to shenanigans.

As regards big handicaps, yes, there are certain colors that flood these fields and it’s not untypical for a rotten plot to emerge that fleeces the average joe public. You know, declare a couple non runners and get your reserve in late that has been completely ignored and back the shxt out of it late on. Those races feed the narrative of corruption/ racing being bent. And to an extent, in those circumstances, it is bent.

I’ve often said that latter issue is a far bigger perception problem than the made up whip issue, which anyone with any brain will show you that you cannot hurt a horse with an air cushioned whip, the authorities are too lazy to educate the public on that issue yet ignore non triers every day of the week. Anyway.

Mostly Harmless

Never got why 2nd/3rd strings winning is seen as symptomatic of corruption, trainers run multiple ones in a race to have a better overall chance of winning and horses can under perform for whatever reason. The market always seems to know well in advance if a Mullins runner is likely to under perform and Mullins generally seems happy to willfully mislead punters (see how he handles telling public about runners targets at Cheltenham every single year).

Think the issue of drugs in racing here is a massive elephant in room that powers that be seem uwilling to deal with seriously, Joesph O'Brien one testing positive for Cobalt went unpunished and they seemingly tried to bury the news by releasing it few days before Xmas.

In general I think a lot of the English think Irish racing is very corrupt but in reality it's comparable to a lot of stuff in UK at lower levels or Northern tracks.

RivetingRoger

Funny how in jumps "team tactics" are seen as rotten corruption yet AOB is seen as a genius in flat racing for doing exactly that!!

mick malones mauser

Once there is money to be made there will be people willing to bend and break rules.

Slattsy

The Irish trainers are experts at plotting horses for the big handicaps. Masters.

It's worth pointing out that Irish racing is miles more competitive than in England and we've less racing so horses won't always be able to show their true colours. But tbf horses have been held back for years, for a big one. Tis nothing new. Nothing to be narky over. Isn't that what handicapping is all about, picking the right one and evaluating all factors?!

Hence the farcical few lbs the brit handicapper gives them every year. Would that happen anywhere else and against anyone else?

McManus gets stick because he's an easy target. But he's hundreds of decent horses, of course one of his is going to pop up every so often, he's great for the game.

Mullins is as corrupt as any of them. Look at Kilultagh Vic today, a prime example. Out for a stroll. Drifted all day. Tailed off. Anything said? Nadda.

eagle eye

As Barney Curley once said when asked for a tip, he laughed and said 'keep your money in your pocket is the best tip I can give anyone'.

Odelay

eagle eye wrote: »

As Barney Curley once said when asked for a tip, he laughed and said 'keep your money in your pocket is the best tip I can give anyone'.

That could be said about any form of gambling.

IAMAMORON

I am backing Irish racing for years. You need to be cute for sure. I only back for serious money in the summer when the Group 1 races are on. I figure owners and trainers do not tolerate shenigans in these races. The potential stud fee is always the real reason why the horse is in the race. Crooking is not an option. I get better value for my bet, as all horses in group races are triers. That does not mean I didn't have a bet last week however.

I have read alot of people griping over the last week about the results in leopardstown. Bar exceptional horses you can only really get one fully right no more than twice a year, it is the nature of the beast. So if an owner fancies a 100k handicap at one of the spring festivals he has to be wary of the horses mark at this time of year. Hence you will see horses underperform at different times of the year.

The ground at Leopardstown last week was unseasonally good. Most trainers would have been expecting softish conditions at best. This massively affects how horses perform. It is highly likely that horses were laid out for a race last week and did not get their ground. Albeit there are a multitude of other factors in any horse race.

I have never met Chris Jones or Brian O'Connell. However I back their horses religiously at Christmas time as it is obvious that their horses perform well at the Leopardstown festival. As such their horses can be considered as "triers" and would enter my shortlists before betting.

I could write a book on this but, yes you are quite right, there is corruption in racing. But there is corruption bloody everywhere, open your eyes. The onus is on you as a punter to get smart with your money. As a punter, I know all to well about biting and chewing the kitchen table in frustration when I can't buy a winner. It can be painful and when this is happening you will blame the world on it. You need to be cute when spilling your money over the counter, you only get it back if its on a trier.

paddy no 11

The vet in carlow had enough gear for 5,000 doses, nobody wanted to know anything about it, you can bet a lot of phone calls went in on that - if I was an English trainer I'd mention it in every interview

redzerdrog

paddy no 11 wrote: »

The vet in carlow had enough gear for 5,000 doses, nobody wanted to know anything about it, you can bet a lot of phone calls went in on that - if I was an English trainer I'd mention it in every interview

You think the English trainers are squeaky clean?

blindside88

paddy no 11 wrote: »

The vet in carlow had enough gear for 5,000 doses, nobody wanted to know anything about it, you can bet a lot of phone calls went in on that - if I was an English trainer I'd mention it in every interview

Was the vet named?

Mostly Harmless

There's definitely less effort made to crack down on doping in Irish racing than UK racing, that is starting to change but still a relative free for all and if one is unlucky enough to get caught they can just disown any knowledge and get off with a warning/fine

stefjoyce

The big trainers do not need to do anything shady.
Saying that,all trainers are not slow to improve their chances of winning,WHEN IT SUITS THEM!
A lot to be said for the French system of coupling horses.
Methinks stewards are more interested in bashing a jockey who is genuinely trying,than the gangster who makes it look like he is!

paddy no 11

blindside88 wrote: »

Was the vet named?

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/sport/horse-racing/richard-forristal-steroid-find-could-have-disastrous-impact-on-irish-racings-reputation-29639428.html

paddy no 11

paddy no 11 wrote: »

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/sport/horse-racing/richard-forristal-steroid-find-could-have-disastrous-impact-on-irish-racings-reputation-29639428.html

Serious white wash

Our very own operation puerta list and all

The Tetrarch

RivetingRoger wrote: »

Funny how in jumps "team tactics" are seen as rotten corruption yet AOB is seen as a genius in flat racing for doing exactly that!!

No. I thought Churchill's 2000 Guineas win was unsatisfactory as Lancaster Bomber imo inconvenienced other contenders.
I want a limit of three runners in one ownership in a race, and I would prefer only one horse for each ownership.
If a horse is in a race as a pacemaker for a stablemate then he should as far as possible be tracked by that horse.
If he destroys a race by setting a false pace then I would like sanctions.

Happy4all

ON ZEE BRIDLE wrote: »

I really noticed this christmas alot of crap in Irish racing;cheating, non tryers, second/third string coming in, odds on favs drifting before the race(Limini).Then you have Ruby Walsh love in with Paddy Power which is just wrong.Is Irish racing that rotten or am I just being paranoid?!I mainly post on a Uk racing forum and I know the English posters think we are up to all sorts of shenanigans!Be interested to hear your thoughts-Thanks

Surprised no one picked up on this. Walsh being on the PP payroll is just blatantly wrong.

No other sport would allow it.

lemush

Happy4all wrote: »

Surprised no one picked up on this. Walsh being on the PP payroll is just blatantly wrong.

No other sport would allow it.

Ruby is far from the only one, Puppy with Boylesports, Henderson with Unibet to name a couple.

Happy4all

lemush wrote: »

Ruby is far from the only one, Puppy with Boylesports, Henderson with Unibet to name a couple.

but all wrong

The Tetrarch

Do you remember the horse that lost his front shoes in a race, but after the race he was wearing them in the parade ring (on film), an enquiry was called into his poor performance, and when the horse was examined shortly afterwards at the stables he had lost his shoes (again?).
The explanation given for his poor running was he lost his shoes.

Where is Colombo when you need him?
"Just one more thing"
Did anyone find the horseshoes on the racecourse afterwards? You wouldn't leave them there for horses to step on in a race, and grass mowers wouldn't work as well after mowing horseshoes.

lemush

The Tetrarch wrote: »

Do you remember the horse that lost his front shoes in a race, but after the race he was wearing them in the parade ring (on film), an enquiry was called into his poor performance, and when the horse was examined shortly afterwards at the stables he had lost his shoes (again?).
The explanation given for his poor running was he lost his shoes.
Where is Colombo when you need him?
"Just one more thing"
Did anyone find the horseshoes on the racecourse afterwards? You wouldn't leave them there for horses to step on in a race, and grass mowers wouldn't work as well after mowing horseshoes.

Funny you mention that as today the trainer had a non jigger banned for 42 days.

Odelay

The Tetrarch wrote: »

Do you remember the horse that lost his front shoes in a race, but after the race he was wearing them in the parade ring (on film), an enquiry was called into his poor performance, and when the horse was examined shortly afterwards at the stables he had lost his shoes (again?).
The explanation given for his poor running was he lost his shoes.

Where is Colombo when you need him?
"Just one more thing"
Did anyone find the horseshoes on the racecourse afterwards? You wouldn't leave them there for horses to step on in a race, and grass mowers wouldn't work as well after mowing horseshoes.

What was the horse doing in the parade ring after the race???

You have obviously never spent time looking for a thrown shoe, they can be very difficult to spot. Especially if ground was giving. They do walk the course and find some but not all. If the mower this one, you hop off and change a knife and get back to work. Such is life.

paddy no 11

Odelay wrote: »

What was the horse doing in the parade ring after the race???

You have obviously never spent time looking for a thrown shoe, they can be very difficult to spot. Especially if ground was giving. They do walk the course and find some but not all. If the mower this one, you hop off and change a knife and get back to work. Such is life.

Why don't you just tell us what happened instead of not picking a post where a fella is writing from memory

The Tetrarch

Odelay wrote: »

What was the horse doing in the parade ring after the race???.

He was being filmed wearing his shoes.
After the race the horses use an exit from the track that goes into the parade ring.
Then the horses go from the parade ring out another entrance/exit to the stables.

Gringo180

Is the sky blue?

BorneTobyWilde

Corruption or just tactics

Francie Barrett

Odelay wrote: »

What was the horse doing in the parade ring after the race???

You have obviously never spent time looking for a thrown shoe, they can be very difficult to spot. Especially if ground was giving. They do walk the course and find some but not all. If the mower this one, you hop off and change a knife and get back to work. Such is life.

Shoes that were lost, found (on film), but then lost again?

The problem with racing in this country is that genuine questions are raised, but they get totally lost in all the conspiracy theory nonsense (like Ruby jumping off horses at Cheltenham).

Irish racing has a bad reputation, but let's be honest, it's deserved.

Nonoperational

What's the wining percentages for the various odds in Ireland vs the UK? I suspect they are almost identical. People will plot to win races as long as betting exists, but the vast majority of the nonsense spoken about it comes from people with a gross misunderstanding of betting. An even money shot will win less than half the time if it is performing to its odds and adding in a bookies percentage. Yet people expect every short price horse to win and it's always a conspiracy when they don't.

Remember the talk about Ruby and Annie Power at Cheltenham. Embarrassing and clueless. But it'll keep going as long as people back horses.

Shemale

Odelay wrote: »

You have obviously never spent time looking for a thrown shoe, they can be very difficult to spot. Especially if ground was giving. They do walk the course and find some but not all. If the mower this one, you hop off and change a knife and get back to work. Such is life.

Trying to be smart but blathering on without reading his post.

Connections said Foxrock lost front shoes, he was examined after race and found to be missing two front shoes and jockey was done for not reporting. Subsequent to this, footage emerged of Foxrock walking in after race with both front shoes on so connections were obviously trying to cover up the lie by removing the shoes after the race.

This was VERY VERY VERY high profile, even if you werent watching racing. Aidan O Brien and Willie Mullins gave evidence for some reason. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/sport/horse-racing/ted-walsh-cleared-of-any-wrongdoing-by-inquiry-into-foxrocks-lost-shoes-31202705.html

Same trainer again

https://www.irishracing.com/news?headline=Batcio-suspended-for-42-days&prid=196973

The Tetrarch

"He added that the rider was very inexperienced".
The jockey was riding Batcio for the 11th time, having covered more than 22 miles in races on Batcio, and had won on Batcio previously.

Shemale

"this horse was purchased to give the rider some fun and enjoyment"

Leave him ride the horse at Dollymount so, he can have all the fun he wants there.

42 day ban for the horse, the real non trier of the piece, nonsense.

STB.

Happy4all wrote: »

Surprised no one picked up on this. Walsh being on the PP payroll is just blatantly wrong.

No other sport would allow it.

A far bigger issue for me is the blatant ownership of horses by bookmakers. The other is that trainers can have open trading accounts with betting firms.

paddy no 11

STB. wrote: »

A far bigger issue for me is the blatant ownership of horses by bookmakers. The other is that trainers can have open trading accounts with betting firms.

What horses!!? Will take a PM if illegal to post up

Gringo180

paddy no 11 wrote: »

What horses!!? Will take a PM if illegal to post up

Would be interested to know myself.

posturingpat

Gringo180 wrote: »

Would be interested to know myself.

Luke Mc Mahon,Aubrey's dad. Rich Ricci. Paddy power.

STB.

paddy no 11 wrote: »

What horses!!? Will take a PM if illegal to post up

Gringo180 wrote: »

Would be interested to know myself.

Well if I start naming names, someone might think I am making accusations about horses not being run to their merits for betting purposes, so I wont. Many are known and I personally think that anyone involved in betting shouldn't have horses.

Are there also horses being run in a name that is not the owner for odds purposes ?

Andrew00

STB. wrote: »

Well if I start naming names, someone might think I am making accusations about horses not being run to their merits for betting purposes, so I wont. Many are known and I personally think that anyone involved in betting shouldn't have horses.

Are there also horses being run in a name that is not the owner for odds purposes ?

Remember this https://www.attheraces.com/news/2017/July/27/drama-at-yarmouth-as-impostor-wins-wrong-race-at-odds-of-50-1

Shemale

Andrew00 wrote: »

Remember this https://www.attheraces.com/news/2017/July/27/drama-at-yarmouth-as-impostor-wins-wrong-race-at-odds-of-50-1

Jesus, I never knew it was left there.

Sounded like he was blaming the jockey who was rushing but the lass took the horse out of its stable for saddling.

STB.

Andrew00 wrote: »

Remember this https://www.attheraces.com/news/2017/July/27/drama-at-yarmouth-as-impostor-wins-wrong-race-at-odds-of-50-1

That would seem like a genuine mistake. I am sure the chips are checked before they race now!

This was one of the worst I have seen as this guy got to keep his licence. Again its in the UK, but it exposes the relationships that should not exist

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/nov/29/trainer-david-evans-ladbrokes-non-runner-tip

Gringo180

No jockey or trainer should be on the payroll of a bookie. Scandalous.

Andrew00

Rancid