Tenants overholding for 6 months enforcement of determination order

Judeloveen

Just wondering if anybody here is a landlord with experience if having a determination order enforced?
Tenants have been over holding for 6 months & over €6,500 in arrears. Went through the longwinded RTB process and finally had a determination order in my favour which the tenants have not abided by (still no rent or arrears received & won't vacate premises).
I have applied to RTB to enforce the order 2 weeks ago-I have no idea if they'll take my case or how long it will take.
I've had to take a loan out to cover mortgage repayments and if they don't vacate in the next 2 weeks I will need to remortgage my home to cover both my mortgage & the property they rent from me.
Anyone found themselves in this situation or can offer any advice? Feeling pretty desperate about the whole situation.
Thank you!

Dizzyblonde

Mod note:I've moved this to the Accommodation & Property forum.

Eric Cartman

Sorry for your troubles OP. This is why we need garda and bailiff backed forced evictions, should be a 90 day and physically removed and locks changed job.

Best of luck to you OP, i know youre not supposed to do it publically but if youre talking to other landlords around let them know the names just so nobody else in the area is blighted by these absolute scrotes.

Carlos Orange

This thread is worth a read.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057902656

dashoonage

Hold on....you want to remove a non paying tenant....in ireland...... will ya go way outta that!

Judeloveen

Thank you-very similar situation to mine. My enquiries re pursuing the legal side of things myself cost in excess of €3500 without the additional sheriff costs

mrslancaster

Apologies if this was asked before - is it compulsory to go through the RTB to sort out a dispute?

If the RTB process takes so long, would it be quicker for a landlord to go straight to the courts through a solicitor.

If the RTB was set up to assist in sorting out issues faster and more cheaply they don't seem to be doing that from the experience of a lot of posters.

If it takes 6 months or longer with no rent being paid, would the cost of a solicitor be less and a quicker process with less stress.

Any thoughts / info ?

GGTrek

mrslancaster wrote: »

Apologies if this was asked before - is it compulsory to go through the RTB to sort out a dispute?

If the RTB process takes so long, would it be quicker for a landlord to go straight to the courts through a solicitor.

If the RTB was set up to assist in sorting out issues faster and more cheaply they don't seem to be doing that from the experience of a lot of posters.

If it takes 6 months or longer with no rent being paid, would the cost of a solicitor be less and a quicker process with less stress.

Any thoughts / info ?

Unfortunately all your questions have to be answered negatively.


1) Landlord (or any party BTW) can only go directly to District Court and skip RTB if the amount under dispute is above 20k. The plaintiff could try to claim 20k of rent arrears/damages but he/she better have solid proof to present to the District Court judge or his/her case will not be heard with the additional loss of at least 3 months time and having to go back to RTB.


2) The RTB was created for two main reasons: (a) nice public employees cushy jobs and (b) the Courts before 2004 could not wait to get rid of tenant/landlord cases. All the rest is BS propaganda


3) An experienced solicitor for the landlord will only come handy at two points (a) an RTB appeal since it is very formal and the solicitor will actually make sure that the tribunal will follow correct procedure (they are definitely biased toward the tenants) (b) to follow up the enforcement process at District Court after the RTB dispute is over.


The OP should avoid waiting for the RTB to enforce the determination order unless he/she wants to waste a few months waiting for them and the rent arrears accumulate even more. 3.5k is too expensive for a District Court case legal fees, right amount would be around 1.5k. OP should PM the OP of the thread that was posted who sucessfully enforced the determination order and get a few recommendations about solicitors (really depends where the OP is located). Best of luck, he/she will definitely need it.

Baby01032012

GGTrek has the answer in a nutshell above.

Do not wait for the rtb. They will take another 3 months to “decide” on whether to take your case. They are nearly guaranteed to not take it. Lack of funds and resources to take it to court. Told that by a tribunal panel who found in my favor. That is mostly reserved for the pro tenant cases.

handlemaster

Im sure the OP will have all the help he can get in this horrible situation, local TD, treshold, RTB, Focus Ireland etc. ..lots of associations can help..ah ..no your on your own. Then they wonder why rents go up. Non paying tenants drive up costs for all

Judeloveen

Just an update on my situation in case anyone may find it useful!

So after tenants failed to abide by determination order, I went through RTB and appointed a solicitor to pursue enforcement proceedings.

I 'won' the case and now have 2 judgements, one for vacant possession and the other for arrears (close to €12000). However, tenants have been given an additional 60 days to vacate property. It feels like a slap in the face-they have refused to pay rent for 10 months and then are given another 2 months on top of that-how is this justice?

Can't wait to get my property back but terrified of the state it will be in. I'll be selling at the earliest possible chance and will feel huge relief to have this burden gone.

Unbelievable how protetected tenants are and how vulnerable landlords are-since tenancy started 17 months ago, they have paid 8 months rent & have lived rent free for the past 10 months with the courts giving them an additional 2 months! I know I will never see my money again.

The financial strain this has put my family and I under is immense & has seriously affected my health-my sympathies to anyone currently in this situation, the process is rediculously lengthy & stressful-something really needs to be done to support all the 'good' landlords out there otherwise there will be no properties left to rent!

voluntary

No wonder rents sky rocket and landlords fly the market. Everyone affected should be writing to their local TDs. Flood them with emails. Send emails/letters directly to the housing minister, send them to Varadkar.

They do nothing because people stay quiet indicating they accept such state. Go viral, look what anti-water charges brigade managed to push through without even having a merit.

Del2005

voluntary wrote: »

No wonder rents sky rocket and landlords fly the market. Everyone affected should be writing to their local TDs. Flood them with emails. Send emails/letters directly to the housing minister, send them to Varadkar.

They do nothing because people stay quiet indicating they accept such state. Go viral, look what anti-water charges brigade managed to push through without even having a merit.

Most accidental landlords don't have the time that the professional protesters who started the water protests have, they are too busy trying to cover their mortgages to be spending hours hounding people, who have been shown repeatedly to favour tenants.

Don't worry when the government has done completed it goal and driven the small landlord out the REiTs will start their legal challenges, they have the money, and tenant protect will fall. Then we'll have expensive rents with little tenant protection.

Judeloveen

This is exactly how I feel. With working additional hours to try & meet mortgage payments and raising a young family I have no time (or energy) to protest! It's difficult enough finding the time to prepare and submit all evidence and keep on top of exactly what happened & when-The files of documents and evidence I have against the tenants is similar to when I was studying for my degree!!!

bleary

The thing is they done even need to change any laws, If they had just adequately funded the prtb to ensure swift fair determinations , good landlords and good tenants would all be in a better position but there's more votes in meddling and demonizing .

Fol20

From my discussions with lls and other people in legal fields, they say its sometimes better just to pay the tenants off. I have never gotten to that stage yet touch wood. Morally and from a principle aspect, i despise it however you just need to be practical and consider the economics behind it and remove the emotions. If they still refuse, you have no other options you will need to go down the terrible biased process that is the RTB.

I wish there was a blacklist for these types of situations where lets say when tenants apply for a property they need to provide something similar to a tax clearance cert or a credit type check. If this was in place, tenants would think twice about doing something like this as they would struggle to rent for good afterwards

Varik

Fol20 wrote: »

From my discussions with lls and other people in legal fields, they say its sometimes better just to pay the tenants off. I have never gotten to that stage yet touch wood. Morally and from a principle aspect, i despise it however you just need to be practical and consider the economics behind it and remove the emotions. If they still refuse, you have no other options you will need to go down the terrible biased process that is the RTB.

What's to stop someone taking the money and just not moving.

Deagol

Would point out that we are only hearing one side of a story here.

Not accusing the OP of any wrongdoing etc but we have no idea why a tenant paid first 8 months of rent and then started to withhold. There could be a serious dispute at the back of this that if we were aware of might cause us to hold a different opinion of the situation.

Again, OP, not accusing you of any malfeasance - just pointing out that making hysterical judgements (instead of just advising on a situation as you requested) as many on this thread are doing, is rather unfair.

Pkiernan

OP.

What are you going to do in 60 days when these ‘people’ refuse to leave?

You will need to contact the Sherriff to enforce the Court Order. I doubt these ‘people’ will move without bailiffs throwing them out.


Mod Note
While I agree with the sentiments of your post, we shall try keep it civil if possible.

sunnysoutheast

Deagol wrote: »

Would point out that we are only hearing one side of a story here.

Not accusing the OP of any wrongdoing etc but we have no idea why a tenant paid first 8 months of rent and then started to withhold. There could be a serious dispute at the back of this that if we were aware of might cause us to hold a different opinion of the situation.

Again, OP, not accusing you of any malfeasance - just pointing out that making hysterical judgements (instead of just advising on a situation as you requested) as many on this thread are doing, is rather unfair.

The LL's case was sufficiently strong that he/she got a determination order from the RTB against the tenant so I'd assume any such "dispute" would have been thoroughly reviewed.

Fol20

Deagol wrote: »

Would point out that we are only hearing one side of a story here.

Not accusing the OP of any wrongdoing etc but we have no idea why a tenant paid first 8 months of rent and then started to withhold. There could be a serious dispute at the back of this that if we were aware of might cause us to hold a different opinion of the situation.

Again, OP, not accusing you of any malfeasance - just pointing out that making hysterical judgements (instead of just advising on a situation as you requested) as many on this thread are doing, is rather unfair.

Even if a ll is not following the rules, it doesnt give them the right to not pay rent. They should continue to pay rent and dispute case with RTB for compensation.

It sounds like they are also not following RTB determination order and still over staying.

Del2005

bleary wrote: »

The thing is they done even need to change any laws, If they had just adequately funded the prtb to ensure swift fair determinations , good landlords and good tenants would all be in a better position but there's more votes in meddling and demonizing .

The RTB is funded adequately for tenants who get judgements and massive payouts. But for some reason the same RTB can't award landlords compensation. It's bias is shown in how it deals with each section and it's setup to protect tenants and tenants alone.

Deagol wrote: »

Would point out that we are only hearing one side of a story here.

Not accusing the OP of any wrongdoing etc but we have no idea why a tenant paid first 8 months of rent and then started to withhold. There could be a serious dispute at the back of this that if we were aware of might cause us to hold a different opinion of the situation.

Again, OP, not accusing you of any malfeasance - just pointing out that making hysterical judgements (instead of just advising on a situation as you requested) as many on this thread are doing, is rather unfair.

Even if the property is falling down around the tenant they still have to pay the rent while the case it with the RTB. It should actually be a prerequisite to a tenant taking a case that are fully paying their rent and a speedy eviction of they aren't

sportsfan90

Best of luck, unfortunately I think the best you can hope for is that they will leave in 2 months with not too much damage done to your property. From reading other threads on here, I think you can nearly forget about ever seeing a penny of the rent arrears.

How people can do this I don't know. I'm not saying all landlords act impeccably but when situations like this arise it does seem the laws are completely in the tenants favour - and I day that as someone who is a tenant that has never owned a property.

A previous housemate of mine who is a socialist thinks it's a disgrace that he should have to pay a cent of rent at all as he reckoned the mortgage was probably already paid off by now so why should the owner be allowed make a profit.. Tbh I didn't even bother trying to reason with him.

Fol20

Varik wrote: »

What's to stop someone taking the money and just not moving.

I would be giving them bank draft and signed declartion to sign if i ever needed to do it

the_syco

Varik wrote: »

What's to stop someone taking the money and just not moving.

They get the money the moment they leave.

Teddy Daniels

the_syco wrote: »

They get the money the moment they leave.

Yeah, no they don’t .

Fol20

Fol20 wrote: »

From my discussions with lls and other people in legal fields, they say its sometimes better just to pay the tenants off. I have never gotten to that stage yet touch wood. Morally and from a principle aspect, i despise it however you just need to be practical and consider the economics behind it and remove the emotions. If they still refuse, you have no other options you will need to go down the terrible biased process that is the RTB.

I wish there was a blacklist for these types of situations where lets say when tenants apply for a property they need to provide something similar to a tax clearance cert or a credit type check. If this was in place, tenants would think twice about doing something like this as they would struggle to rent for good afterwards

I’d rather forcebaly remove than and risk the fines. I’d never in a million years pay off a scum tenant. Let them sing for any “compo” too id refuse to pay it.

Teddy Daniels

Reginald Cuddly Stocking wrote: »

I’d rather forcebaly remove than and risk the fines. I’d never in a million years pay off a scum tenant. Let them sing for any “compo” too id refuse to pay it.

I miss the 80s as well buy the new world is harder

Lumen

Is insurance available that pays out the value of PRTB orders that are not met by tenants?

This lumpy risk from scumbags/financially desperate people is similar to how compo claims work, and is a natural fit for an insurance product.

Or can you sell on the eventual debt to a collection agency?

DubCount

Lumen wrote: »

Is insurance available that pays out the value of PRTB orders that are not met by tenants?

This lumpy risk from scumbags/financially desperate people is similar to how compo claims work, and is a natural fit for an insurance product.

Or can you sell on the eventual debt to a collection agency?

There used to be a policy available from rentassured.ie. Not sure if it is still available. It was very expensive, it only covered up to 11 months loss of rental income (and losses are likely to be much more than that) and they only covered tenants which they vetted. With anti-discrimination legislation, I'm not sure where a LL would be if the insurer would not underwrite a HAP tenant for example.

frag420

If I were a landlord I would be asking for 6 months rent up front as a deposit...

I listen to a bit of English radio online and I hear LL insurance policies like this being advertised a lot, covering losses due to bad tenants etc. But over on the UK they would be got rid of much faster you can be sure so the payouts would not be near as high for an insurance company.

Del2005

Lumen wrote: »

Is insurance available that pays out the value of PRTB orders that are not met by tenants?

This lumpy risk from scumbags/financially desperate people is similar to how compo claims work, and is a natural fit for an insurance product.

Or can you sell on the eventual debt to a collection agency?

Insurance is for an unforseen event. Unfortunately in this country its become so bad that it would be an assurance policy.

The cost of recovering debt in this country is the reason why the tenants get away with the non payment. Unless the debt is substantial its not worth chasing and if the person has no assets, how many tenants have assets?, you can't get blood from a stone.

Squatter

sportsfan90 wrote: »

A previous housemate of mine who is a socialist thinks it's a disgrace that he should have to pay a cent of rent at all as he reckoned the mortgage was probably already paid off by now so why should the owner be allowed make a profit.. Tbh I didn't even bother trying to reason with him.

Is he currently the Minister for Housing by any chance?

Lumen

Lumen wrote: »

Is insurance available that pays out the value of PRTB orders that are not met by tenants?

DubCount wrote: »

There used to be a policy available from rentassured.ie. Not sure if it is still available. It was very expensive, it only covered up to 11 months loss of rental income (and losses are likely to be much more than that) and they only covered tenants which they vetted.

I'm not surprised it was expensive if it covered rental losses without a PRTB determination.

Del2005 wrote: »

Insurance is for an unforseen event. Unfortunately in this country its become so bad that it would be an assurance policy.

That's a handy pun but not supported by evidence. There were 6,610 RTB disputes with landlords as an applicant in 2018, against ~340k registered tenancies. That's less than 2% dispute rate.

I can't find statistics on the value of determinations, but let's say 10k each, that would mean a total cost averaged across all registered tenancies of about €200 per tenancy.

Add in a 20% margin for the insurer and the usual bail-in levies and VAT and you get around €300/year per policy.

Alternatively, the PRTB could add a levy to the cost of registration and then pay out from a central fund. There would still be an incentive for landlords to vet tenants to avoid incurring the interruption to income and hassle of a PRTB dispute.

Stats: https://onestopshop.rtb.ie/research /

Thomas

Fol20 wrote: »

I wish there was a blacklist for these types of situations where lets say when tenants apply for a property they need to provide something similar to a tax clearance cert or a credit type check. If this was in place, tenants would think twice about doing something like this as they would struggle to rent for good afterwards

RTB determinations are public record so you can search for LLs and Tenants names for previous issues raised about them in the RTB.

Del2005

Lumen wrote: »

I'm not surprised it was expensive if it covered rental losses without a PRTB determination.



That's a handy pun but not supported by evidence. There were 6,610 RTB disputes with landlords as an applicant in 2018, against ~340k registered tenancies. That's less than 2% dispute rate.

I can't find statistics on the value of determinations, but let's say 10k each, that would mean a total cost averaged across all registered tenancies of about €200 per tenancy.

Add in a 20% margin for the insurer and the usual bail-in levies and VAT and you get around €300/year per policy.

Alternatively, the PRTB could add a levy to the cost of registration and then pay out from a central fund. There would still be an incentive for landlords to vet tenants to avoid incurring the interruption to income and hassle of a PRTB dispute.

Stats: https://onestopshop.rtb.ie/research /

How many landlords just paid money for the tenants to leave? A system that takes up to 2 years and substantial losses vs a quick few grand to cut your losses.

Fol20

Thomas wrote: »

RTB determinations are public record so you can search for LLs and Tenants names for previous issues raised about them in the RTB.

There is and i do use it, however there is a lot of cases including some of my own that never make to the RTB has others have pointed out, debt collection is very difficult in ireland so no point pursuing

Thomas

Fol20 wrote: »

There is and i do use it, however there is a lot of cases including some of my own that never make to the RTB has others have pointed out, debt collection is very difficult in ireland so no point pursuing

I haven't been in the situation but if I had a problem tenant, I would follow it through to ensure their name was public. I would also state this to the tenant early in the process as you can be sure many of them probably aren't aware of the public nature of the orders.

Del2005

Thomas wrote: »

I haven't been in the situation but if I had a problem tenant, I would follow it through to ensure their name was public. I would also state this to the tenant early in the process as you can be sure many of them probably aren't aware of the public nature of the orders.

They would most likely end up with a payout because of your threatening behaviour. A landlord does not dot all the i's or cross all the t's and they are ruled against with compensation for the tenant. A tenant doesn't pay rent and destroys a property what does the landlord get?

rightmove

LL are less likely to take a case

Squatter

Del2005 wrote: »

A landlord does not dot all the i's or cross all the t's and they are ruled against with compensation for the tenant.

A tenant doesn't pay rent and destroys a property what does the landlord get?

Two fingers from the Government, the RTB, Threshold, Focus Ireland, the Peter McVerry Trust and the rest of the Irish homeless charity industry. :mad:

Plus, if he's really lucky, a Revenue audit to check why he hasn't paid tax on the rent he didn't receive.