New 'slow' Wheels

a_shed

Hi

There's no doubt that the ride is more comfortable, but I seem to be putting in more effort just to maintain my 'old' speed.

I haven't been back to the shop yet as I wanted to get some input from people who might have experienced similar results first.

My original wheels were stock Merida wheels with 25mm Continental 4 seasons tyres. The new ones are hand-built with Hope hubs and vittoria Rubino 28mm tyres.

So I'm not sure if the slower speed could be attributed to the wider tyres, the different brand tyres, the new wheels, or indeed a combination of these.

Any thoughts greatly appreciated. Also, any advice on good value wheels (under £500) also appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

koutoubia

how many miles have you on the new wheels. I also wouldnt rate Rubino's as fast tyres especially at 28 mm's.
What pressure are you running the Rubino's 28's at?

Raam

Training will make you faster. Better wheels might be lighter, stiffer, more aero and *may* make you faster... marginally.

a_shed

koutoubia wrote: »

how many miles have you on the new wheels. I also wouldnt rate Rubino's as fast tyres especially at 28 mm's.
What pressure are you running the Rubino's 28's at?

I have about 250 miles on the new tires. They are at 90psi front and back as recommended by the guy who built them. I check them before each ride and ensure they are at this pressure.

07Lapierre

Weigh both sets of wheels (with cassette, Tyres and tubes fitted). The lighter pair are the faster set.

a_shed

Raam wrote: »

Training will make you faster. Better wheels might be lighter, stiffer, more aero and *may* make you faster... marginally.

I understand that training makes you faster, but this question relates to the actual setup and the fact that lighter, 'better' wheels appear slower.
My next step is to put the 25mm 4 seasons on the new wheels, then maybe the wider 28mm on the old wheels etc. But thought I'd get some views first.

Thanks for the reply

magicbastarder

koutoubia wrote: »

how many miles have you on the new wheels. I also wouldnt rate Rubino's as fast tyres especially at 28 mm's.

according to bicyclerollingresistance.com, the rubinos should be faster.
however, there seem to be about half a dozen different variations on rubinos, but the cheapest ones are way cheaper than the 4 seasons tyres.

cunavalos

Maybe a stupid question, is there enough clearance for 28mm tyres on your frame especially when you are sat on bike. Is there any frame rub when you are pedalling?

a_shed

cunavalos wrote: »

Maybe a stupid question, is there enough clearance for 28mm tyres on your frame especially when you are sat on bike. Is there any frame rub when you are pedalling?

Yes, that was one of the first things I checked as the difference in speed was so noticeable.

dahat

Those Rubino tyres are dead as hell, I had a set of 25mm on for 100k and binned them after it.

I found the cheap as chips Conti Ultra Sport a quicker tyre if budget is an issue.

magicbastarder

coincidentally, i took a pair of rubinos off my carbon bike this evening to replace them with better tyres. the rubinos were only intended as placeholders.

C3PO

I put 28s (GP4000s) on my new bike, which has carbon wheels, and I also find that they feel a bit “dead” when compared to 25s! However, that is not reflected in Strava segment times which are similar or better!

68 lost souls

For a proper scientific aporroach you need access to a power meter and a velodrome, for more practicable approach the same weather conditions and same stretch of road and put them through the same distance set the same power.

For a less scientific approach same power and same Strava segment while fresh both times.

Lumen

The difference in wheel and tyre performance is probably less than the inaccuracy of a power meter.

You were probably riding into a head wind.

Good luck taking the wheels back because they are slow. I'd like to witness that exchange :pac:

Light wheels can feel slower because they have less inertia.

magicbastarder

magicbastarder wrote: »

coincidentally, i took a pair of rubinos off my carbon bike this evening to replace them with better tyres. the rubinos were only intended as placeholders.

FWIW (and it ain't worth much) i went out on the bike this morning, and was on a couple of segments that i did on the same bike the other day on the rubinos. counting up the coast road segments (i.e. clontarf to sutton) out and back from friday, and today, friday was one minute slower (33 minutes vs. 32 minutes this morning). which is well within the variances (wind, rest, and the minute i spent waiting at the lights on friday which i was spared today) you'd have to deal with.
i was better rested on friday (one week's rest in the legs, but today was my third spin in four days), and i think the wind was more of an issue this morning, but am possibly just making excuses with that one.

anyway, the new tyres *felt* livelier.

a_shed

Lumen wrote: »

The difference in wheel and tyre performance is probably less than the inaccuracy of a power meter.

You were probably riding into a head wind.

Good luck taking the wheels back because they are slow. I'd like to witness that exchange :pac:

Light wheels can feel slower because they have less inertia.

I've covered about 250 miles with the new tyres/wheels before forming an opinion, and not all head wind :-)

I don't intend asking for an exchange, but will ask if they can check that they are happy that the wheels are set up correctly and run as freely as they should. <snip>

I probably wouldn't be as fussed as I am about this if the shop hadn't originally talked me into buying 'custom made' rims with the promise that I'd notice an immediate improvement, especially when climbing.

Thanks for the reply

mod note - please stop repeating that you have committed tax fraud.

Lumen

a_shed wrote: »

I've covered about 250 miles with the new tyres/wheels before forming an opinion, and not all head wind :-)

............

I probably wouldn't be as fussed as I am about this if the shop hadn't originally talked me into buying 'custom made' rims with the promise that I'd notice an immediate improvement, especially when climbing.

Thanks for the reply

Well-built custom wheels are often "better", not least because they're more easily repairable than factory wheels. And they're unique to your requirements, so you can adjust spoke counts, nipple material, colour etc to whatever your preference is.

They can be also stiffer, if the spoke count is decent.

But faster? That would be a bold claim.

Hope hubs? I bet they look nice.

Don't judge them by how well they spin in the air. Factory wheels are often compromised by seals which are too light. The light seals are used because bike shops (and their customers) like to spin wheels to show how spinny they are. But they don't keep out the crud, so the bearings may wear out quicker and have more drag after a while

saccades

Hope RS4 hub?

They are phenomenal, incredibly free rolling and so far bombproof.

I've those with their five20 rims and are lovely.

I run 85psi with 28c and get a lovely cushioned ride and decent speed.

If it's an pro4 hub etc, then wtf? Too many pawls.

I'd be blaming the tyre personally - pick up some equivalent 4seasons in 28 and use them. Rubinos are low end Vittoria, certainly worse than the Pave I ran before.

Cee-Jay-Cee

I had 28 Duranos on my winter bike. I changed to 25mm Michelin Litions and found an immediate difference. The duranos felt very heavy and dull.

Just on a side note, I had a Merida Ride and thought the factory Alex rims were quite good, they spun nicely and the 25mm Maxxis Detonators certainly weren’t slowing me down any.

easygoing39

I'd be very surprised if its the Hope hubs fault.They are really top notch well built items,bombproof even.As suggested above,is it due to their really brilliant sealed bearings?? If it is I'd pedal harder,bearings that last are worth their weight in gold.

doozerie

One thing that often seems to get little or no thought is how tightly a wheel is clamped in the frame or forks. Depending on the design of the hub, clamping the wheel "too tightly" can put excess pressure on the bearings and create added drag/resistance. Which is why, for some hubs you leave some play in the bearings, which you can feel by wiggling the axle with the wheel out of the frame, and the clamping pressure of the skewer eliminates that play when in the frame.

You can see the effect by spinning the wheel "in the air" while holding the axle at both ends with your hands. Then clamp the wheel in the frame and spin the wheel and see whether it seems to rotate as freely. There shouldn't be a noticeable difference if the hubs are well adjusted.

Even if there is a noticeable difference it shouldn't be so much that you'd notice it while pedalling (unless the hubs were awful) but it all adds up, and it is something to consider.

All that said, I'd guess that tyre pressure could be the most significant factor here. There are many conflicting views on what amounts to appropriate tyre pressure, the Michelin chart (LINK) works well for me for 23mm tyres (100psi) and 25mm tyres (85psi) but some people baulk at those figures.