to disc or not

lennymc

howdy all, happy new year and all that hope everyone is keeping well.

Im looking at a new race bike for next year - im looking for something to make the pain and suffering of getting my ass spanked that bit easier, an di am looking at aero disc bikes for my sins. I can imagine lumen fainting at the thoughts.....

anyway - ive never had a problem with rim brakes (except for carbon in the wet) but im wondering now that discs are legal, would i not be aswell with a disc bike.

I think im pretty much set on one of the current aero crop, but not decided on brakes. Another thing is di2 vs non di2. never had di2, so wouldnt miss it, but like the idea of it, so maybe ill get it.

thoughts welcome!

C3PO

Can’t see myself buying a new rim braked bike again, unless it was a ridiculous bargain! On the other hand I can take or leave Di2 - would certainly prefer mechanical DuraAce to electric Ultegra given the choice!

Type 17

I went from a lifetime of rim brakes and mechanical shifting to a bike with discs and Di2, and now I wouldn't consider going back, for a decent bike anyway (happy enough with rim brakes/mechanical shifting on slower/town/hack bikes).

The brakes give so much more confidence on descents, as there is always more braking available, and it's much easier to modulate. The fact that the tyres are wider is a big factor here too, but you need the discs to make that possible (I'm running 28's at 75/85PSI, but the frame could probably take 35's).

Di2 gives perfect, and above all, instant shifting every time (Mechanical shifting on road bike and flat bar bikes hasn't been truly instant since the days of MTB rotary thumb shifters and down-tube racer shifters - the STI stuff only releases the mech/changes the gear when you release the lever, not when you first push it - Di2 restores that instantaneousness.) It sounds a bit trivial, but it makes a huge difference when you're pushing on.
Shifting up to the big ring in particular can be quite slow with mechanical shifting (long throw of the lever), and that issue is gone with Di2 as well.
The best bit of Di2 is the auto-shifting whereby, when you get down to the smaller sprockets and shift one more time, the front mech shifts to the big ring and the rear mech simultaneously shifts back two or three sprockets, to give you the next ratio. It works the same when climbing - as you go to the bigger sprockets and the threshold* is reached, the front mech drops to the small ring, and the rear moves out a few sprockets.
*You can set up the thresholds/behaviour you want using a Windows PC and free software - the connector cable comes with the bike/groupset.

As a car guy too, I would compare it to an excellent tiptronic gearbox with steering wheel paddles.

Raam

I think it's inevitable that we will all mostly be on disc brake bikes in the future. Might as well embrace it if you can.

sin_26

Currently have di2, etap and mechanical stuff also. Disc and mechanical brake bikes.
Electronic if you like some exotic stuff and disc if it's your everyday training rig.
Last year been on equivalent of A2 races in Italy and Netherlands (watching my nephew) and none of 5 first bikes have disc and electronic. That bikes are still in minority in the group and I wouldn't judge those guys that they won't to be faster.

So to encapsulate... There are only few minor reasons to go to electronic unless you want burn your money and few more if you want to go to disc and still want to burn your money .

Not easy decision especially if market pushing us to go certain way and everything have its pros and cons.

Personally I would pick disc as futureproof option but would hesitate to pay extra for what I get in return for electronic shifting.

Cheers

Needless to say that any option is worth the money if it makes you exited to go for a spin and want more.

OleRodrigo

Rumour has it Shimano are releasing a new climbing system next year, aimed at riders looking to save energy and increase efficiency after getting up in the morning.

Apparently, it will offer significantly improved modulation as well as increased safety on descents.

Type 17

It's going that way - there are already a number of road e-bikes on the market (examples) and, if an e-bike comes with the Shimano STePS powertrain, it can be connected directly to MTB or road Di2 derailleurs (or a Nexus/Alfine Di2 hub servo) to provide fully automatic gear shifting, based on speed, cadence and load.

Next up, cruise control and aircon :pac:

Lumen

I love and hate disc brakes in equal measure, but electronic shifting is all good.

lennymc

Shut up and take my money!

OleRodrigo wrote: »

Rumour has it Shimano are releasing a new climbing system next year, aimed at riders looking to save energy and increase efficiency after getting up in the morning.

Apparently, it will offer significantly improved modulation as well as increased safety on descents.

lennymc

Lumen wrote: »

I love and hate disc brakes in equal measure, but electronic shifting is all good.

Is that the Lumen seal of approval????

Lumen

lennymc wrote: »

Is that the Lumen seal of approval????

If you're going to run carbon rims then there isn't much choice is there? Otherwise you'll find yourself in a bunch with everyone else on discs, and unable to brake as hard in the wet.

And if you're getting an aero frame you can't run shallow section rims cos they'll look wrong.

I still think they're hateful, even if they do work well.

A well adjusted rim brake on a clean rim is a joy to behold.

fat bloke

A season of on-bike conversation about trying to troubleshoot previous gen di2 has put me right off it. Grand you're buying new and agent worried about resale, but I would be very slow to buy a used bike with electronic gearing.

As for discs... Meh... Since when did paying extra for heavy become a thing in cycling?

So yeah. Rims and mechanical for me. Spend the saving on a nice 5 day Easter trip to Majorca

koutoubia

Was in ROSE bike shop in Munich in November.
Every bike they had was disc brake.
From commuter to Gravel to Aero.
We will be on disc in the future.
Dont mind it but the size if the brake hoods on hydro brakes are hideous.

lennymc

thanks for all the replies so far guys.

Looking online, options seem to be canyon aeroad, trek mad one, cannondale systemsix, giant propel, scott foil, and a few others. Any owners on here care to comment on any of the above with manual or electric shift & rim or disc brakes.

This is lovely too and has been sat in my basket for a week or so....


System Six:


Aeroad:


propel:


not overly mad on the trek or the scott foil tho.

fat bloke

Those side profiles. - Blank out the make & model decals and identify one over the other?

S5 is an undeniably awesome bike.

lennymc

ended up ordering the system six ultegra at a super price on westbrook cycles.



Will need to get a spare set of wheels for the race season.

harringtonp

While the arguments for disc are stronger than ever, roll back a few years ago when weight was king. You don't hear manufacturers buzzing on about it much these days but I presume its still important... particularly if you've done the hard dietary work and got your body fat down to an optimum level.

The money you needed to spend 5 years ago to get a 7kg aero bike will now get you a 8kg disc brake aero bike. This is of course a very general generalization but I'd love nothing more than a verifiable link to a sub 3K, aero , 7kg disc brake bike !

Cookie_Monster

Aside from a slight cost increase there is no down side to discs, it's a no brainer imo. I thinks were at the stage where it should be mandatory at elite level too, cut the BS and move with the times

Lumen

harringtonp wrote: »

While the arguments for disc are stronger than ever, roll back a few years ago when weight was king. You don't hear manufacturers buzzing on about it much these days but I presume its still important... particularly if you've done the hard dietary work and got your body fat down to an optimum level.

Weight isn't that important. Sky were winning GTs on 8kg bikes from what I remember.

Neither is braking. You just need a bike that's adequately light with adequate braking.

Manufacturers are just finding ways to satisfy the needs of people who want to spend a lot of money on a bicycle, look like a pro, or whatever.

On that subject, there's no logical reason why professional cyclists can't all use the same 8kg €1000 round-tubed bicycle with alloy wheels and rim brakes. It's about human performance right? The UCI WordTour could tender for a standard bicycle to be used by the whole peloton, like with Mavic support. Or raise the minimum weight limit to 8kg and ban carbon fibre and deep section wheels.

But none of this is about logic, it's about money.

Besides which, if expensive bicycles didn't exist, how would we signify our commitment to cycling. I guess there's always clothing. And Strava.

JimmiesRustled

I've thought about going to disc brakes for the 2019 racing season but being under 70kg I've yet to come across an instance in which I can't lock the back wheel up.

If I was going disc id go hydraulic but the hoods are god awful. I test rode the new 105 hydraulic groupset and just couldn't get over the size of the hoods. I think I'll hold off until it gets a bit more streamline.

Highway_To_Hell

Recently upgraded my bike and went with disc breaks and while the stopping power is great the only downside is they squeak when wet, the same issue for any other guys I am out with who have disc breaks. Did a bit of googling to see if it can be cured but no joy. Still prefer to have the stopping power in the wet and put up with the squeak.

fat bloke

Not a disc aesthete but I have I could see myself coming around to the good sense of them on a winter trainer. Braking can be shocking these wet / damp days. And that's on a damn good bike with new ultegra and decent wheels.

Lumen

Highway_To_Hell wrote: »

Recently upgraded my bike and went with disc breaks and while the stopping power is great the only downside is they squeak when wet, the same issue for any other guys I am out with who have disc breaks. Did a bit of googling to see if it can be cured but no joy. Still prefer to have the stopping power in the wet and put up with the squeak.

Mine stopped squeaking at the first pad change.

marvin80

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Aside from a slight cost increase there is no down side to discs, it's a no brainer imo. I thinks were at the stage where it should be mandatory at elite level too, cut the BS and move with the times

From what I can see there was never any demand or need for disc brakes on road bikes - manufacturers just saw an opportunity to add 'something' to bikes to sell them, I saw someone summing it up nicely: "an answer to a problem that never existed".

I've used disc brakes on mountain bikes and there perfect for that but from my own experience on road bikes (only sportives, never raced) I've always had enough braking power without disc brakes.

If disc brakes were so impressive we would have seen everyone at elite level switch over straight-away, which hasn't happened. (I'm sure they'll all switch over in the next year or so).

I'll stick with the rim brakes for as long as possible.

Fighting Tao

marvin80 wrote: »

From what I can see there was never any demand or need for disc brakes on road bikes - manufacturers just saw an opportunity to add 'something' to bikes to sell them, I saw someone summing it up nicely: "an answer to a problem that never existed".

I've used disc brakes on mountain bikes and there perfect for that but from my own experience on road bikes (only sportives, never raced) I've always had enough braking power without disc brakes.

If disc brakes were so impressive we would have seen everyone at elite level switch over straight-away, which hasn't happened. (I'm sure they'll all switch over in the next year or so).

I'll stick with the rim brakes for as long as possible.

The first sportive I did was the Tournof Meath in 2015. Coming down the hill of Tara it was like a river. The rim brakes were quite useless. It was similar conditions for the Tour de Boyne Valley last year. While I admit that the majority of the time the rims were great and perfect for most of my cycling I wanted disc brakes on my new bike and so got them. I haven’t been out in torrential rain with it yet though.

magicbastarder

Lumen wrote: »

Mine stopped squeaking at the first pad change.

which might imply contamination with the old pads?
mine used to squeak like bejesus. every so often (well, every six months or so, depending on how dirty the bike gets), i take the pads off and sand them lightly and hit them with a heat gun. i also sand the discs slightly. but the best performance improvement i've seen was after a wet and mucky ride where obviously some fine grit got between the pads and rotors and scoured everything clean.
that said, i don't have high quality pads on my bike. just the bog standard ones from the LBS.

terrydel

lennymc wrote: »

thanks for all the replies so far guys.

Looking online, options seem to be canyon aeroad, trek mad one, cannondale systemsix, giant propel, scott foil, and a few others. Any owners on here care to comment on any of the above with manual or electric shift & rim or disc brakes.

This is lovely too and has been sat in my basket for a week or so....


System Six:


Aeroad:


propel:


not overly mad on the trek or the scott foil tho.

Orca aero? Canyon is the nicest there. I personally think aero bikes are hideous, that cannondale is a shining example of that.
Just dont go for the cliché matt black or grey/carbon, every ****er has it.

Oops, just realise you bought it, no offence intended!

Lumen

I think the Cannondale looks fine. The Cervelo is hideous and that Giant stem made me puke a little in my mouth.

Raam

Lumen wrote: »

I think the Cannondale looks fine. The Cervelo is hideous and that Giant stem made me puke a little in my mouth.

They are all equally awful.

OleRodrigo

There is an upside to disc brakes/ electric gears - downward pressure on mechanical groupset prices.

Maybe 2019 will see Record gruppos going for 1000 euro? Maybe not - at least not yet - but Chorus is currently around that and Potenza is super value at about 650.

Along with great value to be had from independant wheel builders, there's never been a better time to resist forced assimilation from the corporate apparatchiks

magicbastarder

Raam wrote: »

They are all equally awful.

i just noticed it - the seatpost on the cervelo is one of the worst abominations i've seen on a bike.

youtheman

I'm a big advocate of disc brakes. Have 2 bikes with them. Only small downside is when you come to order new wheels.
1. there are 2 options for how the disc is connected to the wheel, 6 bolt or splined.
2. there are 3 separate standards for axles, Quick Release, 15 mm Skewer or 12 mm Skewer.
3. there are 2 options for rear axle width, 135 mm or 142 mm.

Most wheels will come with adaptors to allow you cover most bases, but it can be a bit of a pain trying to work you way around it.

lennymc

So the system six turned up a week ago, done a couple of hundred k on it, and I like it. Discs are good in the wet. I got the 51, and it looked tiny when I was building it up. It's very similar geometry to my caad 10, but looked way smaller. Thankfully it felt good and familiar when I actually rode it. The reach, drop etc are the same as the caad. It's heavy at 8.4kg out of the box with assioma pedals, garmin mount and bottle cages.

It was comfy on the rides I've done, and I have ordered a set of 50 mm wheels for it for racing.

All in all, I am happy with the bike, and look forward to getting dropped on it during the coming season!!!

Raam

Pics, FFS.

Raam

Stick em in the images of ugly, which is where I meant to put my new yoke.

lennymc

Raam wrote: »

Stick em in the images of ugly, which is where I meant to put my new yoke.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=109195655&postcount=1801

you're welcome

CramCycle

Lumen wrote: »

Weight isn't that important. Sky were winning GTs on 8kg bikes from what I remember.

I remember a mechanic commentating that the weight differnce between the sky bikes and evreyone elses were very similar to the weight of a *****, maybe just a coincidence, maybe not.

Neither is braking. You just need a bike that's adequately light with adequate braking.

I understand the concern for braking for leisure etc but for racing, you need to be able to slow, slightly , in emergency situations. At no other point should braking be a concern.

On that subject, there's no logical reason why professional cyclists can't all use the same 8kg €1000 round-tubed bicycle with alloy wheels and rim brakes. It's about human performance right? The UCI WordTour could tender for a standard bicycle to be used by the whole peloton, like with Mavic support. Or raise the minimum weight limit to 8kg and ban carbon fibre and deep section wheels.

It would be fantastic.

Fighting Tao wrote: »

The first sportive I did was the Tournof Meath in 2015. Coming down the hill of Tara it was like a river. The rim brakes were quite useless. It was similar conditions for the Tour de Boyne Valley last year. While I admit that the majority of the time the rims were great and perfect for most of my cycling I wanted disc brakes on my new bike and so got them. I haven’t been out in torrential rain with it yet though.

I have been out in torrents of rain, if my brakes were set up right, on a worst case scenario, the braking distance increased by about a metre or two. If they are set up with the pads, almost touching the rims, they will act like a vice and stop rotation if you want them too.

Lumen

CramCycle wrote: »

I remember a mechanic commentating that the weight differnce between the sky bikes and evreyone elses were very similar to the weight of a *****

Ben Swifts was 7.7kg according to Cycling Weekly.

https://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/pro-bike-ben-swifts-pinarello-dogma-60-1-24711/

Pinarello claimed 950g for the frameset but that was a lie, they were more like 1.2kg.

At the top level 900g is a big deal, that extra weight would be better on the rider. Saves on the pharmacy bill.

DKmac

I will never buy a disc brake bike for racing for these reasons, in no particular order.
1. They look horrendous.
2. They sound horrendous. There are no plans or solutions from companies to make disc brakes any quieter - check out the latest CyclingTips podcast for this info.
3. Maintenance of disc brakes is something I don't need in my life.
4. A rubbing disc brake can be a pain and something not easily fixed. Which would also be a pain pre-race.
5. Discs get bent and hey presto they rub again! Especially if you are constantly taking your bike in and out of a car to and from races.
6. Rim brakes work just fine. Wet or Dry I've never had any problems with carbon rims.
7. There are few if any places in Ireland where a disc brake would be preferable to a rim brake. I understand a main reason for discs are long descents and a risk of rims overheating and deforming this doesn't happen in Ireland and I've no plans to ride abroad.

Lumen

DKmac wrote: »

2. They sound horrendous. There are no plans or solutions from companies to make disc brakes any quieter - check out the latest CyclingTips podcast for this info.
4. A rubbing disc brake can be a pain and something not easily fixed. Which would also be a pain pre-race.
5. Discs get bent and hey presto they rub again! Especially if you are constantly taking your bike in and out of a car to and from races.

I've never experienced these issues in several years of using a disc braked road bike.

Actually, there was a bit of noise until the first pad change, but now they're quieter than my rim brakes.

DKmac

Lumen wrote: »

I've never experienced these issues in several years of using a disc braked road bike.

Actually, there was a bit of noise until the first pad change, but now they're quieter than my rim brakes.

Delighted for you. I have experienced these. I'd prefer not to.
In short in my opinion they are completely unnecessary on any race bike in this country.

harringtonp

DKmac wrote: »

I will never buy a disc brake bike for racing for these reasons, in no particular order.
1. They look horrendous.
2. They sound horrendous. There are no plans or solutions from companies to make disc brakes any quieter - check out the latest CyclingTips podcast for this info.
3. Maintenance of disc brakes is something I don't need in my life.
4. A rubbing disc brake can be a pain and something not easily fixed. Which would also be a pain pre-race.
5. Discs get bent and hey presto they rub again! Especially if you are constantly taking your bike in and out of a car to and from races.
6. Rim brakes work just fine. Wet or Dry I've never had any problems with carbon rims.
7. There are few if any places in Ireland where a disc brake would be preferable to a rim brake. I understand a main reason for discs are long descents and a risk of rims overheating and deforming this doesn't happen in Ireland and I've no plans to ride abroad.

But hey man, a big advantage is that they are quite a bit heavier so it forces you to get fitter to climb at the same speed

DKmac

harringtonp wrote: »

But hey man, a big advantage is that they are quite a bit heavier so it forces you to get fitter to climb at the same speed

#8

Borderfox

youtheman wrote: »

I'm a big advocate of disc brakes. Have 2 bikes with them. Only small downside is when you come to order new wheels.
1. there are 2 options for how the disc is connected to the wheel, 6 bolt or splined.
2. there are 3 separate standards for axles, Quick Release, 15 mm Skewer or 12 mm Skewer.
3. there are 2 options for rear axle width, 135 mm or 142 mm.

Most wheels will come with adaptors to allow you cover most bases, but it can be a bit of a pain trying to work you way around it.

Don't forget flat mount and post mount

youtheman

Borderfox wrote: »

Don't forget flat mount and post mount

Funny you mention that, but I just realised that yesterday when I was day dreaming about ordering a new disc groupset.

Icyseanfitz

are there many non hydraulic caliper options out there?

Borderfox

Trp spyres and Trp bb5-bb7 not great though and dont take up the wear like a hydraulic system. I have the TRP Hy/Rd system and find it a good compromise between cable and hydraulic

benneca1

Whatever about racing where every gramme counts for normal cycling they work well and consistently and in crap Irish winter weather you don't get a ton of brake compound staining your wheels frame and fork.

Used them on MTB for years and I have to say the case was stronger there. But on road the consistency is brilliant and even in Ireland on long descents it is nice to be able to have fully modulated braking with one finger effort.

magicbastarder

one issue i have had recently is scraping noise from crud being thrown up from the front wheel making its way between the disc and pads on the back wheel. only on muddy roads though, but i've been down a few of those recently.

Borderfox

magicbastarder wrote: »

one issue i have had recently is scraping noise from crud being thrown up from the front wheel making its way between the disc and pads on the back wheel. only on muddy roads though, but i've been down a few of those recently.

I tend to only get that when I was the bike