Apprentice signing on

tipptom

Young lad going to be signing on with a trainer in the new year.

Has been offered outside rides which the trainer seem to be not keen on given that he has told him he doesn't want him riding work for any trainers during the week.

Trainer doesn't run much in the off season in Dundalk so if he was to ride in the new year on his first ride it would not be for his master.

Is there a rule that apprentices have to have a certain amount of rides for the trainer they are signed on for first in Ireland?

I know it doesn't apply in England as young Ciaren Fallon was chalked down to ride for someone else than Haggas on his first ride.

The Tetrarch

These might know http://racingacademy.ie/cms/trainee-jockey/
I assume apprentices sign a contract with the trainer.
Everything should be in the contract.
My guess is the apprentice is an employee of the trainer, and could only work for others with the trainer's permission.

The Tetrarch

The internet has plenty about jockey apprenticeships.

National Trainers Federation Apprentice and Conditional Jockeys February 2015

Riding work for other trainers
The apprentice or conditional must not ride horses nor ride work for other trainers without the consent of the employing trainer.

Home rides
Riding fees and prize money from rides provided by the employing trainer (home rides) are subject to income tax and NIC under PAYE. This is the same as wages from the employing trainer.

Away rides
Riding fees and prize money from rides provided by other trainers (away rides) are treated as income of a self-employed individual. Class 2 National Insurance Contributions must be paid and if the profits are above £7,596 (2014/2015) then Class 4 National Insurance Contributions are payable.

Commencement of self-employment
When the jockey first receives “away rides”, he must notify H M Revenue & Customs that he has commenced in business as a self-employed individual. The notification must be within 3 months of the end of the month in which the self-employment commenced.
The apprentice or conditional should be advised to either speak to the PJA or an accountant for advice.

VAT
Customs contend that the agreement between the trainer and apprentice/conditional jockeys are normally contracts of employment or contracts of apprenticeship.

BumperD

You’d think starting off in your first job that going against your trainers wishes might not be the best start. Get permission and be respectful

artanevilla

You might also lose your claim earlier if you are winning with other trainers.

The Tetrarch

tipptom wrote: »

Young lad going to be signing on with a trainer in the new year.

tipptom wrote: »

Has been offered outside rides which the trainer seem to be not keen on given that he has told him he doesn't want him riding work for any trainers during the week.

He should not ride work for others or have outside rides.

tipptom wrote: »

Trainer doesn't run much in the off season in Dundalk so if he was to ride in the new year on his first ride it would not be for his master.

He will be breaking his contract if he rides for another trainer.

tipptom wrote: »

Is there a rule that apprentices have to have a certain amount of rides for the trainer they are signed on for first in Ireland?

No.

tipptom wrote: »

I know it doesn't apply in England as young Ciaren Fallon was chalked down to ride for someone else than Haggas on his first ride.

You are guessing when you say it does not apply in England.
I would believe you if you said you have you read an English apprenticeship contract, or had a lawyer read one and advise you.
Who Ciaren Fallon rode for is not relevant.

tipptom

The Tetrarch wrote: »

The internet has plenty about jockey apprenticeships.

National Trainers Federation Apprentice and Conditional Jockeys February 2015

Riding work for other trainers
The apprentice or conditional must not ride horses nor ride work for other trainers without the consent of the employing trainer.

Home rides
Riding fees and prize money from rides provided by the employing trainer (home rides) are subject to income tax and NIC under PAYE. This is the same as wages from the employing trainer.

Away rides
Riding fees and prize money from rides provided by other trainers (away rides) are treated as income of a self-employed individual. Class 2 National Insurance Contributions must be paid and if the profits are above £7,596 (2014/2015) then Class 4 National Insurance Contributions are payable.

Commencement of self-employment
When the jockey first receives “away rides”, he must notify H M Revenue & Customs that he has commenced in business as a self-employed individual. The notification must be within 3 months of the end of the month in which the self-employment commenced.
The apprentice or conditional should be advised to either speak to the PJA or an accountant for advice.

VAT
Customs contend that the agreement between the trainer and apprentice/conditional jockeys are normally contracts of employment or contracts of apprenticeship.

That doesn't answer my question

tipptom

BumperD wrote: »

You’d think starting off in your first job that going against your trainers wishes might not be the best start. Get permission and be respectful

Whos talking about not getting permission and not being respectful?

tipptom

The Tetrarch wrote: »

He should not ride work for others or have outside rides.


He will be breaking his contract if he rides for another trainer.


No.


You are guessing when you say it does not apply in England.
I would believe you if you said you have you read an English apprenticeship contract, or had a lawyer read one and advise you.
Who Ciaren Fallon rode for is not relevant.

Of course he can ride work for trainers on certain morning or afternoons with his masters permission.

He will not be breaking his contract if he rides for another trainer.

Im not guessing that Fallon was going to have his first ride for an outside trainer.

Whats with the attitude of "I would believe you" and lawyers and rubbish?

It is relevant if he decides to sign on in England.

Kevhog1988

it may be worth your while speaking to a few apprentices who have worked for that trainer before. i know a fella who was apprenticed to Jim Bolger and jim wasn't too keen on him taking outside rides and losing his claim. If the trainers wishes are against your young lads chances of progression it may be worthwile for him to try a different trainer noted for nurturing young jockeys.

Best of luck to him anyway. its a dream i had as a young lad but i grew too much.

The Tetrarch

tipptom wrote: »

That doesn't answer my question

I did not find the Irish regulations online.
The BHA (British Horseracing Authority) regulations say the trainer must give the apprentice experience on the training grounds and on the racecourse.
This does not mean she/he must give the apprentice rides in races.

tipptom

theemigrant wrote: »

it may be worth your while speaking to a few apprentices who have worked for that trainer before. i know a fella who was apprenticed to Jim Bolger and jim wasn't too keen on him taking outside rides and losing his claim. If the trainers wishes are against your young lads chances of progression it may be worthwile for him to try a different trainer noted for nurturing young jockeys.

Best of luck to him anyway. its a dream i had as a young lad but i grew too much.

I was an apprentice jockey myself years ago and went to R.A.C.E when the only equiciser they had was a wall with a saddle on it and Mick Kennedy was our coach telling us to"sit and wait,sit and wait" who only died there a couple of weeks ago.

My question was if there is a rule now about an apprentice having to ride for his first couple of rides for his main trainer these days as I can vaguely recollect someone saying to me a while back.

Im only guessing that he may not want him riding for other trainers during the winter as he said that he didn't want him riding work for other trainers.

This will be clarified near the signing on and if hes being to rigid for little promises we move on as he has some decent offers coming of the horse and pony racing circuit.

Thanks for the best wishes

BumperD

tipptom wrote: »

Whos talking about not getting permission and not being respectful?

You! If I’ve mis interpreted then apologies


“Has been offered outside rides which the trainer seem to be not keen on given that he has told him he doesn't want him riding work for any trainers during the week.”

The Tetrarch

tipptom wrote: »

Of course he can ride work for trainers on certain morning or afternoons with his masters permission.

1. He will not be breaking his contract if he rides for another trainer.

2. Im not guessing that Fallon was going to have his first ride for an outside trainer.

3. Whats with the attitude of "I would believe you" and lawyers and rubbish?

It is relevant if he decides to sign on in England.

1. I said ..... without the consent of the employing trainer.
2. An arrangement elsewhere has no bearing on your employment as any outside training or race riding is ..... without the consent of the employing trainer.
3. You said "I know it doesn't apply in England". Again, do you know if Fallon was given permission for an outside ride by his trainer, or did he and all other apprentices have the right to outside rides?

The Tetrarch

This is the one occasion I regret resigning a a moderator.

tipptom

BumperD wrote: »

You! If I’ve mis interpreted then apologies


“Has been offered outside rides which the trainer seem to be not keen on given that he has told him he doesn't want him riding work for any trainers during the week.”

No Bumper,I think you've misinterpreted it or I've put it badly.

I'm only guessing about him being not to keen on outside rides if he doesn't want him riding work for other trainers but he might be fine with the rides.

We weren't intending on rocking up to Dundalk to ride something for someone else while his trainer only discovers he's riding there when he sees him chalked down on TV.

Its all irrelevant if there is a rule that you have to ride for your master first for a certain number of rides.
He simply wont be riding until the summer in that case if goes ahead and signs on with him.

BumperD

Ok fair enough I misinterpreted good luck with the venture, must be exciting

tipptom

The Tetrarch wrote: »

This is the one occasion I regret resigning a a moderator.

What is your problem and your hostility to me about" lawyers and not believing me" about young Fallon riding for an outside trainer on his first couple of rides?

I don't care if your a moderator or an ex moderator and if you want to be one again to ban me but I wont take hostility and ignorance from you.

Imhof Tank

The Tetrarch wrote: »

This is the one occasion I regret resigning a a moderator.

What does that mean and what's the smiley face for? The man has been an apprentice himself, clearly knows plenty and is just asking if anyone has the answer to a pretty specific question. You are the one going off on a tangent googling the BHA website.

Good luck to your son OP. The only hassle I've heard of in relation to outside rides is the master keeping his % of the riding fee and share of any prize money from outside rides. It was quite high (?50%? possibly). The justification being that if the apprentice is off at the races riding for other trainers then the master has to hire in a substitute to do the apprentice's yard work while he's away.

tipptom

Imhof Tank wrote: »

What does that mean and what's the smiley face for? The man has been an apprentice himself, clearly knows plenty and is just asking if anyone has the answer to a pretty specific question. You are the one going off on a tangent googling the BHA website.

Good luck to your son OP. The only hassle I've heard of in relation to outside rides is the master keeping his % of the riding fee and share of any prize money from outside rides. It was quite high (?50%? possibly). The justification being that if the apprentice is off at the races riding for other trainers then the master has to hire in a substitute to do the apprentice's yard work while he's away.

Thank,you need a lot of luck in this game.
I was with a big Curragh trainer at the time with ten apprentices and there was no problem with taking outside rides with the trainer taking 50 per cent but back them times it was just handy eager labour for the trainer.

To be fair the likes of Richard Fahey supplies the lads and lasses with a car in the yard to go and ride work for other trainers but I think there should be a cut off at an agreed stage where this stops whereby a trainer is raking it in like in a high profile case or where the apprentice has under a certain amount of outside rides.

The Tetrarch

tipptom wrote: »

I know it doesn't apply in England as young Ciaren Fallon was chalked down to ride for someone else than Haggas on his first ride.

"Cieren Fallon finishes second on 25-1 shot Rhigolter Rose on his first ride at Thirsk"
3rd August 2018, trainer William Haggas

tipptom

The Tetrarch wrote: »

"Cieren Fallon finishes second on 25-1 shot Rhigolter Rose on his first ride at Thirsk"
3rd August 2018, trainer William Haggas

Yes,and that is why you see "WAS chalked down" in what I said.

There was no rule against him riding for the outside trainer who was giving him his first ride but it was decided that it would be best that he rode in an apprentice race on his first ride.

bludcrazetiger

Best wishes for your lad tom!

I don't know what's with the attitude with some of the responses you have been getting, someone clearly burnt there dinner tonight and has the hump.

tipptom

bludcrazetiger wrote: »

Best wishes for your lad tom!

I don't know what's with the attitude with some of the responses you have been getting, someone clearly burnt there dinner tonight and has the hump.

Thanks Blud,It would be handy if he could get a few spins around Dundalk during the winter for a bit of experience especially when they have been offered to him but he's with a top trainer who has good time for him and riding work every week with top jockeys and even if he had to hang on until the back end of the summer to ride for him that's what well do because they would be good horses.

There are a few small rules after signing on that I'm not fully sure on like for instance I don't think you can take on an agent until you have had ten rides but I'm not fully sure as the turf club have very little up.

Rather not ask around the yard as there would be a lot of stick along the lines of "so you think your a top jock already" type stuff lol.

It will be all clarified nearer the time anyway and a bit of luck and being in the right place at the right time he might drive on.

tipptom

artanevilla wrote: »

You might also lose your claim earlier if you are winning with other trainers.

Don't think he would have to be worrying about losing his claim with the yokes hed be riding around Dundalk LOL

Scott Tenorman

The Tetrarch wrote: »

This is the one occasion I regret resigning a a moderator.

What is this post all about??
If that is your attitude to moderating, disciplining people who disagree with you, it is for the best you are no longer a mod (and hopefully it stays that way)

MyStubbleItches

The Tetrarch wrote: »

This is the one occasion I regret resigning a a moderator.

You resigned so get over it. Don't try to hang onto your 'power' with that kind of crap.

UrbanFret

Didnt Tom Queally get into some hassle years ago over this? Or did I imagine it.

tipptom

UrbanFret wrote: »

Didnt Tom Queally get into some hassle years ago over this? Or did I imagine it.

I think that was something over him wanting to go back and finish his leaving and Flynn didn't want to release him from the three year contract or something along them lines.He had ridden a lot of winners up to that stage as young as he was and a few big handicaps as well.

You didn't imagine it though because it turned in to a bitter dispute at the time.

Kevhog1988

tipptom wrote:

Thanks for the best wishes

The flapping circuit is a great grounding for them. Ronnie whelan had a winner in dubai this evening. Not too lomg ago i remember him hunting on a tiny piebald pony