Champions Cup Rule Question

connachta

Theorical but could happen


Sale Sharks are relegated in May (they are for now only few points above rock-bottom Newcastle)
Sale Sharks beat un-interested Connacht away, have their home QF and home SF, then win the Challenge Cup


European rules have them qualified for Champions Cup next season (assuming CC winner doesn't need that spot). What could happen?


-Give their spot to the 7th English team?
-Allow them to play CC even if they're in the Championship 2nd Tier rugby?
-Have exceptionally a 11-club-Premiership?
-Other?

lawred2

Why would it matter what division they were in if they had legitimately earned their place in the CC?

connachta

lawred2 wrote: »

Why would it matter what division they were in if they had legitimately earned their place in the CC?

So you'd say n°2... would be very weird to have a Championship team vs Toulon, Leinster etc.
B&I Cup alive again!

sydthebeat

connachta wrote: »

Theorical but could happen


Sale Sharks are relegated in May (they are for now only few points above rock-bottom Newcastle)
Sale Sharks beat un-interested Connacht away, have their home QF and home SF, then win the Challenge Cup


European rules have them qualified for Champions Cup next season (assuming CC winner doesn't need that spot). What could happen?


-Give their spot to the 7th English team?
-Allow them to play CC even if they're in the Championship 2nd Tier rugby?
-Have exceptionally a 11-club-Premiership?
-Other?

Theoretically the same could happen to toulon

We could have a h cup winner playing in the pro d 2

connachta

sydthebeat wrote: »

Theoretically the same could happen to toulon

Yeah, sweet move to avoid the question :P

MJohnston

There is no question here:

EPCR wrote:

Heineken Champions Cup

Nineteen clubs will qualify automatically for the 2019/20 Heineken Champions Cup in the following ways :.

Guinness PRO14 (7): The three highest ranked clubs from each conference. The fourth-ranked clubs from each conference will play off for the seventh place. (NB South African clubs are not eligible.)
TOP 14 (6): The six highest-ranked clubs based on their final finishing positions.
Gallagher Premiership Rugby (6): The six highest-ranked clubs based on their final finishing positions.

In accordance with a decision of the EPCR Board comprising the nine unions, federations and league bodies, the 20th place in the Heineken Champions Cup will be determined as follows:

i) Heineken Champions Cup winner, if not already qualified
ii) Challenge Cup winner, if not already qualified
iii) Challenge Cup losing finalist, if not already qualified
iv) Play-off match between the losing Challenge Cup semi-finalists, if not already qualified
v) Highest ranked non-qualified club by virtue of league position from the same league as the Heineken Champions Cup winner

connachta

MJohnston wrote: »

There is no question here:

I know the european rule, you get the issue though

MJohnston

No, not really, it's pretty clear cut. If a team is good enough to win the Challenge Cup, then they deserve the spot if it's available.

Sure look at the soccer - in England the FA Cup is open to like the 10th level of league teams. But the winner of the FA Cup automatically receives a spot in the Europa League, no matter who they are. It would be unlikely, but if that team then went on to win the Europa League, they'd gain automatic qualification to the next year's Champions League!

So, not uncommon a rule at all.

Podge_irl

MJohnston wrote: »

No, not really, it's pretty clear cut. If a team is good enough to win the Challenge Cup, then they deserve the spot if it's available.

Sure look at the soccer - in England the FA Cup is open to like the 10th level of league teams. But the winner of the FA Cup automatically receives a spot in the Europa League, no matter who they are. It would be unlikely, but if that team then went on to win the Europa League, they'd gain automatic qualification to the next year's Champions League!

So, not uncommon a rule at all.

The comparison is fairly irrelevant and its not about what they "deserve". No team outside the top leagues has ever played in the Champions Cup - its not unreasonable to suggest it would not be welcome to have a championship or ProD2 team in the competition. I'm far from convinced that they would be allowed enter tbh.

Faugheen

Podge_irl wrote: »

The comparison is fairly irrelevant and its not about what they "deserve". No team outside the top leagues has ever played in the Champions Cup - its not unreasonable to suggest it would not be welcome to have a championship or ProD2 team in the competition. I'm far from convinced that they would be allowed enter tbh.

So they’ll just change the rules because Sale got relegated and boot them out?

Honestly never heard such nonsense.

EDIT: Because the way the rules are structured, any appeal would be successful through the CAS

errlloyd

Podge_irl wrote: »

The comparison is fairly irrelevant and its not about what they "deserve". No team outside the top leagues has ever played in the Champions Cup - its not unreasonable to suggest it would not be welcome to have a championship or ProD2 team in the competition. I'm far from convinced that they would be allowed enter tbh.

Well the biggest issue for the proD2 team is they already have a 32 game domestic season. So I don't think it'd be possible.

Burkie1203

connachta wrote: »

Theorical but could happen


Sale Sharks are relegated in May (they are for now only few points above rock-bottom Newcastle)
Sale Sharks beat un-interested Connacht away, have their home QF and home SF, then win the Challenge Cup


European rules have them qualified for Champions Cup next season (assuming CC winner doesn't need that spot). What could happen?


-Give their spot to the 7th English team?
-Allow them to play CC even if they're in the Championship 2nd Tier rugby?
-Have exceptionally a 11-club-Premiership?
-Other?

It's no different to connacht playing in HEC on the back of Leinster winning it

lawred2

Podge_irl wrote: »

The comparison is fairly irrelevant and its not about what they "deserve". No team outside the top leagues has ever played in the Champions Cup - its not unreasonable to suggest it would not be welcome to have a championship or ProD2 team in the competition. I'm far from convinced that they would be allowed enter tbh.

This is nonsense

What do you mean by it's not about what they deserve!

Surely it's only about what a team deserves....

Donnielighto

Rule is clear. Situation would be wierd but not really and issue beyond clubs gagging to draw them in the pool.

Podge_irl

Faugheen wrote: »

So they’ll just change the rules because Sale got relegated and boot them out?

Honestly never heard such nonsense.

EDIT: Because the way the rules are structured, any appeal would be successful through the CAS

You must have lead a pretty sheltered life...


The ProD2 doesn't have spare weekends for teams to play matches. The second division leagues aren't represented on the board of EPCR. It is a hypothetical scenario I never expect to see anyway but the EPCR competitions are not for second tier clubs.

Podge_irl

lawred2 wrote: »

This is nonsense

What do you mean by it's not about what they deserve!

Surely it's only about what a team deserves....

I mean in an emotional sense.

Faugheen

Podge_irl wrote: »

You must have lead a pretty sheltered life...


The ProD2 doesn't have spare weekends for teams to play matches. The second division leagues aren't represented on the board of EPCR. It is a hypothetical scenario I never expect to see anyway but the EPCR competitions are not for second tier clubs.

But if a team wins the Challenge Cup and gets relegated, then there is nothing the EPCR or anyone else can do about it.

If either the EPCR or the ProD2 try to block it, then the Court of Arbitration for Sport will tell them they have no case and both bodies will have to facilitate the team.

That's why it's nonsense.

MJohnston

Podge_irl wrote: »

The comparison is fairly irrelevant and its not about what they "deserve". No team outside the top leagues has ever played in the Champions Cup - its not unreasonable to suggest it would not be welcome to have a championship or ProD2 team in the competition. I'm far from convinced that they would be allowed enter tbh.

Bullshít. If this was the case, they would have written it into the rules.

"second tier club" is a pretty meaningless title in a league system with relegation and promotion anyway.

jhenno78

What are people assuming that this is an oversight rather than the rules working exactly as they should?
If they wanted to make it against the rules, they would have made it against the rules.

Winning the Challenge Cup is a bloody tough way of qualifying, anyone who gets it deserves it regardless or how the rest of their season went.

Re representation:
- Assuming it's actually relevant, isn't the ProD2 part of LNR? so anyone there would be equally represented.
- PRL shares have to be bought so it's easily possible that a team could get promoted, finish in the top 6, win the premiership, win the champions cup and never have "representation" (I'm not going to research it, but I'd guess that some teams have already played in the Heiniken/champions cup without having PRL shares).
- what if some of the Russian/Georgian/Romanian teams win the challenge cup?