Garo vs Elvi vs Zappi

DesperateDan

Ignoring solar panels (don't think I would realistically get them), is there any remarkable reasons to go with one over the other here? All roughly the same price. Going into an old stone wall if that makes any difference.

I've been told the Zappi could be tricky to sort for warranty issues etc., because there doesn't seem to be an official supplier in the country, just installers that buy them in themselves (local electrician is installing for me).

I know the Zappi does this, but from what I can tell the Garo does limit the electricity load so no priority switch, and I think the Elvi does do this as well.

Elvi has an app and 'modular' future proof design whatever that means. Both the Elvi and the Garo look a little nicer aesthetically. I think the Zappi is a little bit PV focused and as I say not something I'm really interested in.

KCross

I dont think the Zappi will be any harder for warranty than others. UK isnt that far away!

I bought a Rolec from the UK and had warranty issues and dealt directly with the supplier in the UK with no issues.


As to which one of those is best.... it really depends on what features you want.

I havent heard of the Elvi before but I took a look and it is the same as the Garo in that it only does load balancing across 2 of the same devices (i.e. Two Garo's or two Elvi's).

And the load limiting is also a pre-defined hard limit, not something that adjusts in realtime based on your incoming mains which means they would both still require a priority switch.

The Zappi is different and is the only charge point on the market that I've seen so far that monitors the mains feed and adjusts dynamically to ensure you dont blow the fuse.

So, just to explain.... if, lets say, you have two Garo's installed down the line (i.e. you have 2 EV's). You set the limit to 50A between the two. So now the two Garo's will load balance the 50A between the two cars and never exceed 50A (i.e load limit). However, if you now turn on the electric shower.... pop goes the fuse.... hence you will need a priority switch. Unless you limit the two EVSE's to something low like 25A which would be a slow rate to use.

For the Zappi, its different. It monitors the incoming mains (i.e. the entire house load, not just its own load). So, you can again set a, say, 60A limit (pretty much the max you can sustain in a normal domestic supply) and if two Zappis are consuming 60A and you turn on the shower the Zappi's will throttle back because they can sense the shower coming on.

Its a much slicker implementation of load balancing and load limiting. I havent seen another EVSE do this yet.

I've looked at Andersen, JuiceBox, Elvi, Garo, Rolec etc.... they all do it the same way. Zappi is the only one to do it "right" as far as I'm concerned.

What you could also, in theory, do is buy a Garo or Elvi or whatever and let that charge at its full 32A and then when you buy a second EV use a Zappi for that. The Zappi is not tied to any other EVSE to do its balancing and limiting since its monitoring the full house load. All the others require you to buy 2 of the same device if you want load balancing and limiting to work.

I agree aesthetically the Zappi isnt the best, paticularly against a nice stone wall... depends on the stone colour too I suppose.

DesperateDan

That's fascinating thanks KCross I didn't realize there was a difference between setting a hard limit on the current and modulating it like the Zappi does. It seems ridiculous that any 6 or €700 charger doesn't do it like the Zappi.. Well I think that answers my question it's only really very useful when there's two EVs in the house or I am going crazy with the power tools, neither of which are on the horizon right now.

KCross

Not just for two EV’s,
If you have an electric shower and you add a 32A charge point you will need a priority switch.

The Zappi will remove the requirement for a priority switch in a one EV scenario as well.

DesperateDan

Right thanks, we don't have an electric shower right now. We might install one in a house extension unless I can find a nicer way to heat water quickly..

It's amazing how much electricity they use. So worst case scenario if we went with a quick Garo install and eventually installed an electric shower is that basically the charger needs to be limited to 20A, or I'm unplugging the car while someone is in the shower. Both of these things do sound annoying If I'm unplugging the car then I might as well install a dumb €200 32A charger.

DesperateDan

Actually the way Garo describe it seems pretty misleading if it definitely doesn't behave like a Zappi take a look at the manual here (page 20):

The energy meter continually measures the total energy consumption for each phase. The
data is transmitted to the wallbox, reducing the charging current in order to prevent the
main fuses from tripping

rolion

KCross wrote: »

Not just for two EV’s,
If you have an electric shower and you add a 32A charge point you will need a priority switch.

The Zappi will remove the requirement for a priority switch in a one EV scenario as well.

How often does Zappi scans the grid for peaks / overloading ?!
I know my PV immersion diverter does it every 10 seconds, then Zappy should have it in miliseconds ?

DesperateDan

I get the impression it would literally be instantaneous, as the house load ramps up the Zappi sees it because the monitor is hooked right into the main electricity feed. The Harvi would probably slow things down alright because it's wireless.

KCross

DesperateDan wrote: »

Actually the way Garo describe it seems pretty misleading if it definitely doesn't behave like a Zappi take a look at the manual here (page 20):

I think I'm wrong on the Garo then. I had not seen the "Modbus energy meter" that Garo have as an optional add-on to the charge point.

That does seem to get connected to the incoming mains and works the same as the Zappi.

Via the dip switches in the Garo you set the main fuse size (i.e. 63A) and once the energy meter is installed it will ramp the current in the chargers up and down dynamically.


Thanks for pointing that out.
I am on the lookout for a second EVSE myself and the Zappi was the only one so far. The Garo seems to do it as well.


Have you got a price for the Garo?

DesperateDan

Nice ok, good to hear. It's available pretty locally to me I believe from some supplier in Mullingar, he priced it at €520 plus €90 for the energy meter.

KCross

DesperateDan wrote: »

Nice ok, good to hear. It's available pretty locally to me I believe from some supplier in Mullingar, he priced it at €520 plus €90 for the energy meter.

Much the same as the Zappi then just that it doesnt do the Solar bit... but you dont care about that.

The Garo is nicer to look at.

rolion

Any of them gives you mobile or remote application for control / updates in realtime !?
Can you set any parameters of the individual charge, such as time, kilometres and kw to be juiced in the car and, go in your house ?

Do you get a message saying it started charge and when is completed ?
Or, do you have to go out in wind and rain to read the small LCD display that knows to do various functions that you don't control !?

KAGY

rolion wrote: »

Any of them gives you mobile or remote application for control / updates in realtime !?
Can you set any parameters of the individual charge, such as time, kilometres and kw to be juiced in the car and, go in your house ?

Do you get a message saying it started charge and when is completed ?
Or, do you have to go out in wind and rain to read the small LCD display that knows to do various functions that you don't control !?

Zappi is meant to have something in development but its been months since I read any updates.

KCross

rolion wrote: »

Any of them gives you mobile or remote application for control / updates in realtime !?
Can you set any parameters of the individual charge, such as time, kilometres and kw to be juiced in the car and, go in your house ?

Do you get a message saying it started charge and when is completed ?
Or, do you have to go out in wind and rain to read the small LCD display that knows to do various functions that you don't control !?

A few of them do have apps to control those things but I dont think it matters alot to be honest.

You will still plug the car in each day and have the timer in the car set to start the charge during night rate hours. You dont need an app for that.

The Leaf will send you notifications when it starts, finishes etc if you want it to.

Other things like current charge rate etc are nice to have things but not really required. i.e. I wouldnt pay a premium for that.

spakman

I have quotes for both garo and zappi and both more or less the same price. I have solar panels, but they're hot water, not electricity. I don't have electric shower either, so wondering if zappi and garo are more than i actually need.
Any recommendations for good chargers that don't necessarily have load balancing and PV usage?

rolion

KCross wrote: »

A few of them do have apps to control those things but I dont think it matters alot to be honest.

You will still plug the car in each day and have the timer in the car set to start the charge during night rate hours. You dont need an app for that.

The Leaf will send you notifications when it starts, finishes etc if you want it to.

Other things like current charge rate etc are nice to have things but not really required. i.e. I wouldnt pay a premium for that.

Thanks.
I respect your opinion but i feel that if Zappi will have had mobile app will have been trumpeted here like the best invention over,no matter what premium price for app or subscription will cost every year ... most of the users are shouting for a lack of app for it.

So,we geecky gadgetry guys dont want an app to control the most important function of the car !?
Thats a first to me... as i control all things in the house,except mhrv (they said will be end of 2018 when will have an app for that). I have notifications on all alarms,cctv,heating,power monitoring and so on...

How do you setup LEAF to tell you is cable plugged,charging started and completed, is that doable with any charger ? Dont tell me is the Nissan app that most of the time will not allow you even if to login ?
How do you know if charger works ,charging your car and is ready in the morning for your wife to take it away ? Going out in the rain to check if finished ? Or,like me few times,waking up in the early morning and dropping her to work and collecting in the afternoon as car hasnt full charge !?

Honestly,i have no ideea how that can be done... i will never imagined having a car charger and not knowing whats the car doing while cable plugged in...maybe is just me and lucky.

Am not using daytime / nightime rate,as i want my car to be ready whenever i need it and not only in the morning... most of my consumption is done daytime, between 3pm and 11pm. Nothing highly powered devices are runing after 11pm.Solar PVs contribution is wellcomed during day time but i do not rely on it this time of the year.Summer time,weekends days,different story.

Daytime now is around €.16c each unit,after i pay for the change of tarifs ,i think is €250 once off charge, i will pay more than €.20c for same appliances consuming same electricity.Car is a necessity and i feel it will confuse me if i can say i or should have charge at night time...
I'm i wrong here,please advise ?!

Thanks.

DesperateDan

I do think chargers in that price bracket should talk to the internet for software updates and just to simply shout out the charging status to any devices that can listen. I like the idea of asking Alexa "how much time until my Kona is fully charged"

KCross

spakman wrote: »

I have quotes for both garo and zappi and both more or less the same price. I have solar panels, but they're hot water, not electricity. I don't have electric shower either, so wondering if zappi and garo are more than i actually need.
Any recommendations for good chargers that don't necessarily have load balancing and PV usage?

The Rolec's are probably the most popular becuase they are the cheapest and have no frills.

Early Rolec's had issues with burnout so dont buy a secondhand one. New ones should be fine.

They are, imo, still over-priced for what you get. A few quid more and you get a much more advanced EVSE that gives you flexibility but if you just want the basics then Rolec are fine.

KCross

rolion wrote: »

Thanks.
I respect your opinion but i feel that if Zappi will have had mobile app will have been trumpeted here like the best invention over,no matter what premium price for app or subscription will cost every year ... most of the users are shouting for a lack of app for it.

I think the Zappi should have an app because it has the Solar integration so there are some useful stats there. For the basics of charging your car you dont need a charge point app at home. Plug it in and let it charge.

rolion wrote: »

So,we geecky gadgetry guys dont want an app to control the most important function of the car !?
Thats a first to me... as i control all things in the house,except mhrv (they said will be end of 2018 when will have an app for that). I have notifications on all alarms,cctv,heating,power monitoring and so on...

But what exactly do you control in the app. Surely you just plug it and start the charge? Looking at it charging in the app doesnt make it go faster!

Notifications that the charge is complete is done by the car(Leaf), irrespective of the charge point app.

I know some other cars dont have notifications or apps so an app on the charge point would be useful in that case.

rolion wrote: »

How do you setup LEAF to tell you is cable plugged,charging started and completed, is that doable with any charger ? Dont tell me is the Nissan app that most of the time will not allow you even if to login ?
How do you know if charger works ,charging your car and is ready in the morning for your wife to take it away ? Going out in the rain to check if finished ? Or,like me few times,waking up in the early morning and dropping her to work and collecting in the afternoon as car hasnt full charge !?

Honestly,i have no ideea how that can be done... i will never imagined having a car charger and not knowing whats the car doing while cable plugged in...maybe is just me and lucky.

Setup a carwings account and in the car menu there are notification settings where you can tell it to email you when the car starts and stops charging. It will even email you when you get home and forget to plug in.

No app required in either the car or the charge point. The car has a SIM card and will email you directly.

It can of course also be seen in the Leaf app, which generally works fine for me but, as I said, the notifications work outside the app anyway.

rolion wrote: »

Daytime now is around €.16c each unit,after i pay for the change of tarifs ,i think is €250 once off charge, i will pay more than €.20c for same appliances consuming same electricity.Car is a necessity and i feel it will confuse me if i can say i or should have charge at night time...
I'm i wrong here,please advise ?!

Thanks.

There is no €250 charge. Its free to switch to day/night.
The day rate is ~1c/kWh more by day when you switch but its half price by night!! And your car uses alot of electricity.
If your usage profile forces you to exclusively charge by day then fair enough but everyone that has an EV that charges at night should have a day/night meter.

Toine

spakman wrote: »

I have quotes for both garo and zappi and both more or less the same price.

Hello SpakMan, I was able to get quote for Garo (Mullingar based supplier) but not for Zappi, which looks a bit better to me after doing some research. Can you tell me who supplies them? Thanks!

_dof_

Hi Toine,
I got my Zappi from electric autos in Naas and got my local electrician to install it.
Link

WattsUp

DesperateDan wrote: »

Nice ok, good to hear. It's available pretty locally to me I believe from some supplier in Mullingar, he priced it at €520 plus €90 for the energy meter.

Looking at this garo and energy meter option. Did you go with that? Were they ex vat prices. Who was supplier?

adunis

I've got a 19euro eBay din rail WiFi timer in my garo
Use an app on my phone for scheduling .
Brand is ahem "SONOFF"
Just remember to set the cars to always charging or equivalent.

KCross

adunis wrote: »

I've got a 19euro eBay din rail WiFi timer in my garo
Use an app on my phone for scheduling .
Brand is ahem "SONOFF"
Just remember to set the cars to always charging or equivalent.

So does that timer basically cut the power to the charge point like a priority switch just that you have WiFi access to the timer?

adunis

Garo has a dip switch.to enable remote start/stop just a pair of contacts to make or break.wifi switch,mechanical timer,relay whatever for on/off timer/scheduler on switch's app.
Put it in when the Ioniq was being a PITA.

AidenL

Is the Zappi the only charge point which works with PV?

Any other options?

I presume if the sun is out, the car can be manually started on charge anyway, but does the Zappi do this automatically?

KCross

AidenL wrote: »

Is the Zappi the only charge point which works with PV?

I think Rolec are working on one but the Zappi is the only one I've heard thats currently available.

AidenL wrote: »

I presume if the sun is out, the car can be manually started on charge anyway, but does the Zappi do this automatically?

The Zappi will do it automatically.
Starting a charge manually on another charge point isnt really the same thing at all because that will just draw a set amount of current until the car is charged. A cloud could roll over or someone could be taking a shower and there would be no excess and your car will still pull the same current so now you're charging the car with expensive day rate electricity.

The Zappi monitors the excess Solar and only sends the excess to the car. If a cloud rolls in and you've no excess it pauses the charge session until there is excess again.

rolion

KCross wrote: »

I think Rolec are working on one but the Zappi is the only one I've heard thats currently available.



The Zappi will do it automatically.
Starting a charge manually on another charge point isnt really the same thing at all because that will just draw a set amount of current until the car is charged. A cloud could roll over or someone could be taking a shower and there would be no excess and your car will still pull the same current so now you're charging the car with expensive day rate electricity.

The Zappi monitors the excess Solar and only sends the excess to the car. If a cloud rolls in and you've no excess it pauses the charge session until there is excess again.

The smart charger will charge the car with a M I N I M U M electricity flow, some of it taken from the panels and the B I G difference from the expensive grid when photons decides to hide behind a cloud, unless you have a big PV array forget it !!!

Thats why i dont understand why some very professional and helpful users here somehow forgets to mention when talking about PV charging .

KCross

rolion wrote: »

The smart charger will charge the car with a M I N I M U M electricity flow, some of it taken from the panels and the B I G difference from the expensive grid when photons decides to hide behind a cloud, unless you have a big PV array forget it !!!

Thats why i dont understand why some very professional and helpful users here somehow forgets to mention when talking about PV charging .

Thats not true of the Zappi. You can configure the Zappi in multiple ways.

You can tell it to only charge via excess (i.e. No grid use). Its called Eco+ mode.

You can also configure it to charge using the excess and if there isnt enough excess it will make up the shortfall from the grid to get to the minimum required (1.4kW) to keep the charge session going. I think that is what you are referring to. Its called Eco mode in the Zappi but it appears you were not aware of Eco+ mode above where no minimum is required and no grid will be used.

graememk

AidenL wrote: »

Is the Zappi the only charge point which works with PV?

Any other options?

I presume if the sun is out, the car can be manually started on charge anyway, but does the Zappi do this automatically?

The emonEVSE along with the emon pi can also load balance solar.

It's based on the openevse software and hardware