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Dublin traffic, it’s a two part problem.

  • 14-12-2018 10:55am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 7,245 ✭✭✭ tom1ie


    Any reading up on Dublin’s transport problems that I do seems to describe Dublin as being gridlocked and that public transport needs to be given priority etc etc.
    I agree with this of course, but the more I think about it the more I see there’s actually two problems.
    We have commuters from within the m50 and the outer suburbs who are problem 1 that require a good bus service such as bus connects etc.
    problem 2 is the commuters coming from satellite towns such as Naas, Balbriggan, bray etc. I think addressing problem 2 would act like a pressure reducing valve on the whole of the traffic problem. Let me explain:
    Let’s take the n7, if we built two p+r’s (capacity 2x 5000) at say kill and rathcoole and took a dedicated lane of the n7 and converted it to qbc all the way to the cc we could run frequent express busses into the cc.
    Now when I say express i also mean the bus would have to stop at 4 interchange hubs as it approaches the cc. At these interchange hubs there would be an orbital route that allows the person to hop off and change onto another radial route, eg if you live in Naas but work in fonthill industrial park you drive to rathcoole p+r get the cc bus to the outer orbital which is at the outer ring road, and that heads northbound up the outer ring road towards woodies in Lucan, where the n4 radial express intersects with the orbital route.
    At these interchanges bike sharing schemes with high quality bike lanes would be positioned to allow people to have an easy cycle within say 5k of their workplace.
    Tackling this problem would take 60000 cars off the motorway network in Dublin if you built p+r’s at all radial routes, (m1,n2,n3,n4,n7,n11).
    The other 3 orbital routes would be located further on in to the cc at strategic locations that would take in business parks etc.
    eventually rail could replace/ compliment the busses going to the p+r’s.

    Also to make people use the p+r’s I would place tolls on the cc side of the p+r’s but also encourage tax incentives for parking and pt travel passes if p+r’s were used.

    We’ve spent €120m adding an extra lane to the m7 up to the m9 turn off, could we have spent this money more wisely on stopping the cars from coming into Dublin as opposed to making it easier for them?
    What do you guys and gals think?


Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 689 ✭✭✭ spakman


    tom1ie wrote: »
    Any reading up on Dublin’s transport problems that I do seems to describe Dublin as being gridlocked and that public transport needs to be given priority etc etc.
    I agree with this of course, but the more I think about it the more I see there’s actually two problems.
    We have commuters from within the m50 and the outer suburbs who are problem 1 that require a good bus service such as bus connects etc.
    problem 2 is the commuters coming from satellite towns such as Naas, Balbriggan, bray etc. I think addressing problem 2 would act like a pressure reducing valve on the whole of the traffic problem. Let me explain:
    Let’s take the n7, if we built two p+r’s (capacity 2x 5000) at say kill and rathcoole and took a dedicated lane of the n7 and converted it to qbc all the way to the cc we could run frequent express busses into the cc.
    Now when I say express i also mean the bus would have to stop at 4 interchange hubs as it approaches the cc. At these interchange hubs there would be an orbital route that allows the person to hop off and change onto another radial route, eg if you live in Naas but work in fonthill industrial park you drive to rathcoole p+r get the cc bus to the outer orbital which is at the outer ring road, and that heads northbound up the outer ring road towards woodies in Lucan, where the n4 radial express intersects with the orbital route.
    At these interchanges bike sharing schemes with high quality bike lanes would be positioned to allow people to have an easy cycle within say 5k of their workplace.
    Tackling this problem would take 60000 cars off the motorway network in Dublin if you built p+r’s at all radial routes, (m1,n2,n3,n4,n7,n11).
    The other 3 orbital routes would be located further on in to the cc at strategic locations that would take in business parks etc.
    eventually rail could replace/ compliment the busses going to the p+r’s.

    Also to make people use the p+r’s I would place tolls on the cc side of the p+r’s but also encourage tax incentives for parking and pt travel passes if p+r’s were used.

    We’ve spent €120m adding an extra lane to the m7 up to the m9 turn off, could we have spent this money more wisely on stopping the cars from coming into Dublin as opposed to making it easier for them?
    What do you guys and gals think?

    The orbital route from n7 to n4 is ok (too many roundabouts at n4 end though), but there is no orbital route from n4 to n3, presumably because of the liffey valley. So commuters trying to get tp blanch or further north would be stuck at lucan and have to resort to public transport via m50 or city centre


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,798 ✭✭✭✭ LXFlyer


    Sorry Tom, but the notion that people are going to abandon their cars in order to drive to a P & R, take two buses with added wait time at interchange and then have to walk up to 1km to get to their place of work within a business park (yes some are that large) is fanciful to say the least.

    It ain’t going to happen.

    I’m one of the most passionate advocates in favour of public transport but even I can see how unappealing that proposition is.

    Don’t get me wrong, I’m all in favour of expanding the orbital bus route network as that will open new opportunities for people, but when you’re talking about the business parks I just don’t see people being prepared to make that switch in the large numbers that would be needed to make a difference.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,245 ✭✭✭ tom1ie


    LXFlyer wrote: »
    Sorry Tom, but the notion that people are going to abandon their cars in order to drive to a P & R, take two buses with added wait time at interchange and then have to walk up to 1km to get to their place of work within a business park (yes some are that large) is fanciful to say the least.

    It ain’t going to happen.

    I’m one of the most passionate advocates in favour of public transport but even I can see how unappealing that proposition is.

    Don’t get me wrong, I’m all in favour of expanding the orbital bus route network as that will open new opportunities for people, but when you’re talking about the business parks I just don’t see people being prepared to make that switch in the large numbers that would be needed to make a difference.

    I know it’s a hard sell lx, but what is the alrenative? Stay as we are? Bc is specifically for commuters within the m50 and the outlying suburbs. It will have very little effect on the thousands of people coming into Dublin and chocking up the road network.
    People who drive a car, can’t then transfer onto pt without some sort of p+r to interchange to pt.
    Let’s play this out over the next few years. Bc is fully implemented (which I highly doubt anyway) so commuters can get around easier without a car, that’s great until you realize the people who travel from Naas, bray, ashbourne, will replace the commuters who got onto the busses, as they have nowhere to change from car to pt.

    Metrolink is including a p+r at the estuary stop (approx 3000 spaces?). This is so important, as it will take 3000 cars off the m1 and surrounding areas, but will (hopefully) have local feeder busses with integrated ticketing feeding into it, thus reducing traffic even more.
    This plan should be copied on all radial routes, obviously with busses first and then eventual metro/(heavy rail in the case of m4) upgrades.

    We have to give people the option to change to pt, and if they won’t change when the option is there, we create an environment that lends itself to change, carrot and stick approach mentioned above.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,798 ✭✭✭✭ LXFlyer


    You will get people out of their cars to use bus transport for one leg (provided it has complete priority), but once you start introducing more changes then the attractiveness dies a slow death. In that case you really only get people who don’t have the option of driving. That I’m afraid isn’t going to change.

    And as I posted above, most business parks are vast sprawling areas where walking up to 1km is completely unpalatable.

    I should know - I did it for 3 years and swore never again.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,245 ✭✭✭ tom1ie


    LXFlyer wrote: »
    You will get people out of their cars to use bus transport for one leg (provided it has complete priority), but once you start introducing more changes then the attractiveness dies a slow death. In that case you really only get people who don’t have the option of driving. That I’m afraid isn’t going to change.

    And as I posted above, most business parks are vast sprawling areas where walking up to 1km is completely unpalatable.

    I should know - I did it for 3 years and swore never again.

    That’s why I’m saying there has to be carrot and stick. If it makes more financial sense to use pt, then I think people would change, even if they have to change twice, possibly even 3 times.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 84 ✭✭✭ Carlingford Locked


    How come when kids are off the traffic is fine? Should we not be looking at stopping people dropping their darlings to school and looking at different ways of doing this? It doesn't bother me, as I cycle, but from what I can see, far and away the main problem with traffic in Dublin is schools.
    When I were a lad I had to walk 20 miles barefoot through broken glass and over hot coals to get to school, and we were grateful for the opportunity. Why are they so mollycoddled now?


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,798 ✭✭✭✭ LXFlyer


    tom1ie wrote: »
    That’s why I’m saying there has to be carrot and stick. If it makes more financial sense to use pt, then I think people would change, even if they have to change twice, possibly even 3 times.

    I’m afraid you couldn’t be farther from the truth.

    Think this through for a minute.

    As I pointed out many of those business parks would require walks of up to 1km from the entrance, then where do you go to get something to eat at lunchtime, and then another walk in the evening.

    Your suggestion really does have very limited application.

    The notion that it would be acceptable to force someone to change two or three times in both directions (or even consider it reasonable to expect them to happily give up their car to do so out of their free will) isn’t practical in the least.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,798 ✭✭✭✭ LXFlyer


    How come when kids are off the traffic is fine? Should we not be looking at stopping people dropping their darlings to school and looking at different ways of doing this? It doesn't bother me, as I cycle, but from what I can see, far and away the main problem with traffic in Dublin is schools.
    When I were a lad I had to walk 20 miles barefoot through broken glass and over hot coals to get to school, and we were grateful for the opportunity. Why are they so mollycoddled now?

    Remember that there’s teachers and lecturers going to and from work too.

    It’s not just students being dropped off by their parents.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 84 ✭✭✭ Carlingford Locked


    LXFlyer wrote: »
    Remember that there’s teachers and lecturers going to and from work too.

    It’s not just students being dropped off by their parents.

    That's not very many though in fairness. Maybe they should stagger school times or something, would make more sense. I'm pretty sure they do that in some cities in Australia. In Spain kids start at 7am, that would make more sense for a lot of parents here.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,798 ✭✭✭✭ LXFlyer


    That's not very many though in fairness. Maybe they should stagger school times or something, would make more sense. I'm pretty sure they do that in some cities in Australia. In Spain kids start at 7am, that would make more sense for a lot of parents here.

    I think you would be surprised about the numbers - it’s more than you think.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 84 ✭✭✭ Carlingford Locked


    LXFlyer wrote: »
    I think you would be surprised about the numbers - it’s more than you think.

    Ok maybe it's more than I think, but it still shouldn't mean we shouldn't tackle the school run issue. I cycle from Raheny to Baggot st every day, when there are no schools, it's like a Sunday morning sometimes, then when they come back after a break tailbacks on every artery for a good hour every morning. It's crazy.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,153 ✭✭✭ prunudo


    3rd level also has a huge impact on the traffic with both staff and students contributing.
    The whole model of transport and commuting needs to be looked at. Even down too the basics, for example I dont think I've ever seen a bike rack at a bus stop.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 84 ✭✭✭ Carlingford Locked


    Is there really any point in talking about these things in Ireland? I remember 20 years ago when I was going to college, the traffic was absolutely brutal every morning. It hasn't improved at all. Nothing has really. Will anything be different in 20 years when I'm retiring? Nope. I'm just so lucky I can commute by bike, I don't know how the rest of you do it. I'd have to emigrate to a better run country or work from home or something or I'd just lose my mind.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,245 ✭✭✭ tom1ie


    LXFlyer wrote: »
    I’m afraid you couldn’t be farther from the truth.

    Think this through for a minute.

    As I pointed out many of those business parks would require walks of up to 1km from the entrance, then where do you go to get something to eat at lunchtime, and then another walk in the evening.

    Your suggestion really does have very limited application.

    The notion that it would be acceptable to force someone to change two or three times in both directions (or even consider it reasonable to expect them to happily give up their car to do so out of their free will) isn’t practical in the least.

    LX, I've though this through for quite a while. How else do we get people who don't live in Dublin but work in Dublin, out of their cars and onto PT?
    Short of moving their work to their local town or having a direct bus from their house to their place of work.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,517 ✭✭✭✭ Idbatterim


    the way Dublin has been built and with a third world transport system, this mess wont be fixed any time soon. Here is another big issue, most cars now cost virtually nothing to tax and electric cars, cost virtually nothing to fuel...

    Who will get out of their cars in such a situation, if you are going suburb to suburb etc?


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,798 ✭✭✭✭ LXFlyer


    tom1ie wrote: »
    LX, I've though this through for quite a while. How else do we get people who don't live in Dublin but work in Dublin, out of their cars and onto PT?
    Short of moving their work to their local town or having a direct bus from their house to their place of work.

    Well I’ll respectfully suggest that you haven’t thought it through far enough.

    Your idea will work for simple radial journeys - on that level I agree with your concept.

    However, with orbitals it’s far more difficult as virtually no two journeys are identical, and there are serious limitations as to what public transport can deliver.

    Frankly, expecting people to change multiple times and potentially have a long walk too (in both directions and possibly at lunch time) is not realistic. It’s not going to happen.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,781 ✭✭✭ Carawaystick


    How come when kids are off the traffic is fine? Should we not be looking at stopping people dropping their darlings to school and looking at different ways of doing this? It doesn't bother me, as I cycle, but from what I can see, far and away the main problem with traffic in Dublin is schools.
    When children are on holidays, families go on holidays, so there's less people going to work.
    There's very few schools on the M50, yet traffic during school holidays is different to term time.
    It's why Traffic in November is the worst, almost nobody goes on holiday in November (apart from the first week if schools off)


  • Registered Users Posts: 881 ✭✭✭ Bray Head


    When children are on holidays, families go on holidays, so there's less people going to work.
    There's very few schools on the M50, yet traffic during school holidays is different to term time.
    It's why Traffic in November is the worst, almost nobody goes on holiday in November (apart from the first week if schools off)

    France staggers its school holidays by region.

    It's mainly to avoid congestion on the ski slopes:)

    I wonder would it be worth trying in Ireland. I think the main objection would be teachers.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,517 ✭✭✭✭ Idbatterim


    what about opening retail from 9:30 or 10am when the schools arent on a break?


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,245 ✭✭✭ tom1ie


    LXFlyer wrote: »
    Well I’ll respectfully suggest that you haven’t thought it through far enough.

    Your idea will work for simple radial journeys - on that level I agree with your concept.

    However, with orbitals it’s far more difficult as virtually no two journeys are identical, and there are serious limitations as to what public transport can deliver.

    Frankly, expecting people to change multiple times and potentially have a long walk too (in both directions and possibly at lunch time) is not realistic. It’s not going to happen.

    Yeah I can see when you include interchanges and orbitals the whole concept becomes unattractive especially if you have to walk or more than 5 mins after the second bus, but I still think it’d be interesting to get the data on people that live and work on the same radial route, but have no option but to drive as there is no p+r on that radial route. I think the number on all 6 radial routes would be quite substantial.


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