Accuracy of speed enforcement policing equipment?

CiniO

I recall reading here many times, as well as digging the laws myself, which shown that in Ireland there is no need for any calibration of speed measuring devices used by Gardai or even a requirement of using them.

In short a driver can be fined for speeding when detected by member of AGS who used uncalibrated speed detection device, or even judged speed "by eye" but afair that was only an option when at least 2 members of AGS witnessed this speeding "by eye".

Considering we might be facing introduction of very severe penalties of any speeding offence, would the current laws stay in place or would they need to be replaced?

I just wonder how good it will be for a gard to say to you - I've just seen you speeding, you must been doing at least 80 so it's going to be dangerous driving charge now.

Henry Ford III

I wouldn't worry too much about it. The courts tend to believe Garda evidence without backup.

source

Firstly, there are 2 speeding offences in the Garda summons manual which can be applied. Exceeding the speed limit and driving at speed. The first is exactly what it states you exceed the posted speed limit and you can be fined/summonsed; a speed gun, van or ANPR equipped car can catch you doing this. Driving at speed relates to driving in a manner which is too fast for the road conditions, while you may in fact be below the speed limit, this is rarely used. This is based on a judgement call on the Garda’s part based on the conditions that they are observing, though careless driving and driving without due care and attention are better for this type of offence.

Secondly, while there may not be any specific legislation requiring the calibration of the speed equipment, they are regularly calibrated, and a log is kept for each device as to when they were last calibrated. It’s 6 years since I was in the guards so cannot recall how often this is done but it is done. The reason judges rely on the Garda evidence is that they know a calibration certificate can be provided if sought. I believe this was a tactic to get out of speeding fines when penalty points were brought in first and the logs consistently showed that the equipment was working fine so Judges stopped allowing it, as contested speeding fines were clogging up the district courts. That’s not to say that if you can prove the equipment was faulty that they won’t look for the evidence.

Interslice

I often wonder to what degree they are calibrated. They are probably just checked to be within a certain tolerance across a range of speeds. Is it sent to some acredited lab or done inhouse by 2 guards one driving the hyundai past the station at a given speed? If they are going to bring in this new speeding system there will have to be transparency in how they run their speed gun operations.

source

Interslice wrote: »

I often wonder to what degree they are calibrated. They are probably just checked to be within a certain tolerance across a range of speeds. Is it sent to some acredited lab or done inhouse by 2 guards one driving the hyundai past the station at a given speed? If they are going to bring in this new speeding system there will have to be transparency in how they run their speed gun operations.

Don't know the full details but done externally.

source

Apologies for dragging up an old thread but noticed picture of a speed gun on twitter this morning with the calibration sticker showing. It's calibrated by the supplier of the device.

colm_mcm

source wrote: »

Apologies for dragging up an old thread but noticed picture of a speed gun on twitter this morning with the calibration sticker showing. It's calibrated by the supplier of the device.

What’s wrong with that?

McCrack

colm_mcm wrote: »

What’s wrong with that?

A manufacturer or supplier of certifying it's own calibration.. Hardly independent and an accused might wish to have the devise examined by their own expert

If they were bothered

colm_mcm

Sure they should just go down the old laser gun district near temple bar and get one of the many companies with the setup and expertise to calibrate these!

TrailerBob

Surely the original manufacturer is the best company to calibrate? Conspiracy theory thread is thataway >>>. I really tire of the seemingly constant moaning about the accuracy of equipment or the 'can they stop you if' ..line of questions. It's not high horse stuff to say how easy it is to not get caught.

mickdw

I see no issue with the manufacturer calibrating the device. I do however believe that anyone being prosecuted for speeding based on a reading from such a device should be entitled to view a calibration cert. It should be accepted procedure that garda turns up in court with calibration cert.
I believe the garda keep on top of that stuff regardless so why not just make it mandatory to produce calibration cert to really nail everything down

source

I wasn't saying there was anything wrong with it, I was previously asked who did the calibration. I was highlighting that the manufacturer and supplier did it.

Turner

Is actually the law that the gardai dont have to prove that the device is properly caliberated!

To stop everybody challenging the prosecution in that way.

The law really is a f*ckin ass

TrailerBob

To be fair they would have so much court time wasted and resources tied up with every fella challenging it to get away with speeding... You might have a 1 or 2 km/h discrepancy if it wasn't calibrated fully, not 10 or 12.. so the majority would still have no genuine argument

TallGlass

Turner wrote: »

Is actually the law that the gardai dont have to prove that the device is properly caliberated!

To stop everybody challenging the prosecution in that way.

The law really is a f*ckin ass

That's a bit of a joke to be honest.

You should be able to challenge it and the Garda equally should be able to happily provide it, and in cases random samples sent to another calibration company to check the equipment, covers everyone in that event.

CiniO

TrailerBob wrote: »

Surely the original manufacturer is the best company to calibrate? Conspiracy theory thread is thataway >>>. I really tire of the seemingly constant moaning about the accuracy of equipment or the 'can they stop you if' ..line of questions. It's not high horse stuff to say how easy it is to not get caught.

TrailerBob wrote: »

To be fair they would have so much court time wasted and resources tied up with every fella challenging it to get away with speeding... You might have a 1 or 2 km/h discrepancy if it wasn't calibrated fully, not 10 or 12.. so the majority would still have no genuine argument

I started this thread in December when it was loud in media about Minister's Ross proposal to severely increase fines for speeding.

If I remember right, in his proposal someone being 19km/h over the limit would get €80 fine and 3 penalty points, while begin 20km/h would be €200 and 7 penalty points. It's a very significant difference, which for many drivers might mean being off the road for 3 years (f.e. due to insurance cost).

Same someone being 30km/h over the limit would get €200 fine and 7 penalty point, but when doing 31km/h over the limit would be charged with dangerous driving, very often ruining that person's life/career etc...

So my point was if such draconian fines were to be introduced, then preciseness of detection equipment should be of highest standard.

Otherwise it would be very unfair on drivers caught and fined heavier than they should be, just because garda's laser radar was off by 2km/h.

joujoujou

Don't speed.

Sorted. :cool:

clones1980

I used to work for AGS and part of my job was sending the Speed guns for calibration. They are done by an external company and are certified. The external company notifies us constantly as to what speed guns require calibration and I would recall them from the traffic/regular units prior to the previous cert expiring.

Riva10

joujoujou wrote: »

Don't speed.

Sorted. :cool:

Based on previous errors with Garda figures (Breathiliser tests etc) it is very hard to believe any figures issued by the Gardai. Nothing to stop a Garda from stopping a motorist and saying that motorist was speeding. Very few people could afford to fight this in court. Quotas must be reached at any cost.

mikeecho

Riva10 wrote: »

Based on previous errors with Garda figures (Breathiliser tests etc) it is very hard to believe any figures issued by the Gardai. Nothing to stop a Garda from stopping a motorist and saying that motorist was speeding. Very few people could afford to fight this in court. Quotas must be reached at any cost.

Tell us more about these quota's?

You do realise that speeding fines are cost negative.. IE it costs more to process it than is made from the fine.

So the more they write the less profitable the whole process is.

Also the gardai don't receive a red cent from a speeding ticket, that money goes to the governments central fund.

tcawley29

joujoujou wrote: »

Don't speed.

Sorted. :cool:

I hope you don't hurt yourself when you fall from your high horse :pac:

McCrack

mikeecho wrote: »

Tell us more about these quota's?

You do realise that speeding fines are cost negative.. IE it costs more to process it than is made from the fine.

So the more they write the less profitable the whole process is.

Also the gardai don't receive a red cent from a speeding ticket, that money goes to the governments central fund.

Youre failing to appreciate that part of a gardas performance which management do look at is the fcpn and summons rate returns issued or applied for by that garda

mikeecho

McCrack wrote: »

Youre failing to appreciate that part of a gardas performance which management do look at is the fcpn and summons rate returns issued or applied for by that garda

Tell me more.. what quota's are required.

Because I'm not aware of any.

There is no performance evaluation in AGS, it's just not possible

Some do more indoor duties than others. Is there a a number of tickets / summons / charge sheets to be issued per day/ month for those on outdoor duties.

What happens if a Garda that is tied up all day with a sudden death, or stuck in court for half the week . Is their bonus reduced. Oh no. They don't get a performance related bonus.

Maybe it's the end of the month, and they need to get their tickets in... No. They work on a 4 & 10 week roster (it's complicated) so their end of the month/,roster isn't the end of a calender month.


Stop talking bull.. go back to the bar stool.

McCrack

If someone is in traffic and they have consistently low detections its going to get noticed

mikeecho

McCrack wrote: »

If someone is in traffic and they have consistently low detections its going to get noticed

But what if they spent half the roster on oversize convoy escorts for wind farms.
What if there is an overall complence locally for speed
What if. , what then.... Where does the qouta kick in


Back to your bar stoll.

You haven't a clue what you're talking about .

Stop embarrassing yourself.

bladespin

Much if a muchness, there are many metrology manufacturers who operate their own fully accredited labs, their calibration will be as good as any accredited lab.

McCrack

Ive never mentioned quotas which you seem fixated on

Quotas don't exist

mikeecho

McCrack wrote: »

Ive never mentioned quotas which you seem fixated on

Quotas don't exist

Riva10 mentioned quota's.. not you.. apologies .

You're correct. Quotas don't exist

Interslice

source wrote: »

Apologies for dragging up an old thread but noticed picture of a speed gun on twitter this morning with the calibration sticker showing. It's calibrated by the supplier of the device.

If that is the case theyre accurately calibrated. Now im wondering how often, to what tolerance and how much they drift between cals. They look like they get banged about. Are they sent back if theyre dropped? There is no calibration date on that sticker which is odd.

Id imagine all these things will need to be addressed or transparent if Ross is bringing in this new points/fines system.

mikeecho

Interslice wrote: »

If that is the case theyre accurately calibrated. Now im wondering how often, to what tolerance and how much they drift between cals. They look like they get banged about. Are they sent back if theyre dropped? There is no calibration date on that sticker which is odd.

Id imagine all these things will need to be addressed or transparent if Ross is bringing in this new points/fines system.

There is a calibration sticker on the device, and the cert is usually put into the box behind the foam padding .

Yes they can be knocked and dropped, but they are designed for such usage and abuse. You're not dealing with an antique grand father clock., It's a robust piece of equipment, designed for knocks and bumps, rain and sun.

Interslice

mikeecho wrote: »

There is a calibration sticker on the device, and the cert is usually put into the box behind the foam padding .

Yes they can be knocked and dropped, but they are designed for such usage and abuse. You're not dealing with an antique grand father clock., It's a robust piece of equipment, designed for knocks and bumps, rain and sun.

All seems fairly legit. Sounds like they wouldnt need much changes on the gardai end to bring this in. Should accurate to +/- 1 kph if used correctly.

Marcusm

CiniO wrote: »

I recall reading here many times, as well as digging the laws myself, which shown that in Ireland there is no need for any calibration of speed measuring devices used by Gardai or even a requirement of using them.

In short a driver can be fined for speeding when detected by member of AGS who used uncalibrated speed detection device, or even judged speed "by eye" but afair that was only an option when at least 2 members of AGS witnessed this speeding "by eye".

Considering we might be facing introduction of very severe penalties of any speeding offence, would the current laws stay in place or would they need to be replaced?

I just wonder how good it will be for a gard to say to you - I've just seen you speeding, you must been doing at least 80 so it's going to be dangerous driving charge now.

I think the law is that they do not need to prove the calibration or effectiveness in an individual case so as to avoid the unnecessary use of court time. If, however, the gardai were deliberately using uncalibrated devices or ones which were not maintained in accordance with specs then I suspect it is a case for judicial review. I.e. review of maladministration by a government agency.

kirving

mikeecho wrote: »

You do realise that speeding fines are cost negative.. IE it costs more to process it than is made from the fine.

That's more to do with the government "negotiating" a terrible deal with their mates rather than doing the best for thier country. Nothing new there though.

mikeecho wrote: »

the more they write the less profitable the whole process is.

That might be true, to a point, but can't hold true for an unlimited number of fines issued, because fixed costs should stay the same.

If it's really costing over €80 to issue an process the fine (cost of detection aside), then there is some incredible level of mismanagement going on.

CiniO

Marcusm wrote: »

I think the law is that they do not need to prove the calibration or effectiveness in an individual case so as to avoid the unnecessary use of court time. If, however, the gardai were deliberately using uncalibrated devices or ones which were not maintained in accordance with specs then I suspect it is a case for judicial review. I.e. review of maladministration by a government agency.

Maybe that it.
I still don't like the bit about not needing to prove the calibration or effectiveness in an individual case so as to avoid the unnecessary use of court time.

I might be mistaken, but afaik in many countries, when person fined for speeding is questioning calibration and effectiveness of measuring equipment, then case ends up in court, but if it's proven in court that device was properly calibrated, then fine issued in court for person who question equipment accuracy, is multiple times higher than regular fine, and covers the cost court operation.
That way seems way more logical to me, as firstly it gives an opportunity for anyone to contest speeding offence if it really was measured with unadequately calibrated equipment, and secondly it discourages any chancers from contesting it in court if they are only hoping for luck.

w211

The measuring happens on speed of the light, almost 300 000km per second. Laser are so accurate, it have very narrow beam and there can not be any wrong measurements. It was old times if they used the radio waves and that accuracy was very poor. The radio waves sector was so big, it could measure tens of cars on the same time. Now they can measure you on stationary mode about 1km away by accuracy less than 20 centimeters, may be even less (depends by weather).

Emmersonn

mikeecho wrote: »

But what if they spent half the roster on oversize convoy escorts for wind farms.
What if there is an overall complence locally for speed
What if. , what then.... Where does the qouta kick in


Back to your bar stoll.

You haven't a clue what you're talking about .

Stop embarrassing yourself.

Put your cap back on now and go and issue some fcpn's and keep your detection rate up. You do not want a negative review as well as embarrassing yourself on here defending your mates .

mikeecho

Emmersonn wrote: »

Put your cap back on now and go and issue some fcpn's and keep your detection rate up. You do not want a negative review as well as embarrassing yourself on here defending your mates .

Not defending.. just stating facts.

Something you're lacking .

Emmersonn

I know every bit as much about the facts and "quotas" as you do having spent my 30 years contributing and trying to meet them

rd1izb7lvpuksx

w211 wrote: »

The measuring happens on speed of the light, almost 300 000km per second. Laser are so accurate, it have very narrow beam and there can not be any wrong measurements. It was old times if they used the radio waves and that accuracy was very poor. The radio waves sector was so big, it could measure tens of cars on the same time. Now they can measure you on stationary mode about 1km away by accuracy less than 20 centimeters, may be even less (depends by weather).

I work with LIDAR and this is not true at all. The raw data is incredibly noisy, and there is a lot of filtering and waveform analysis to try to get an accurate figure.

Speed estimation is achieved using one of two methods, either repeated measurements or the doppler effect. The latter is far more reliable, but is much more expensive, and usually not used in policing.

In the former, repeated measurements of distance taken by pulsing a laser to determine range over multiple time periods, and estimating speed from the change in range over time. This method has several acknowledged weaknesses, including error introduced by lasing difference facets of the the target and cosine errors providing inaccurate relative velocity measurements.

AndrewJRenko

Kevin Irving wrote: »

That's more to do with the government "negotiating" a terrible deal with their mates rather than doing the best for thier country. Nothing new there though.

That's an interesting claim. Who exactly is mates with who here? And what should the cost have been? What the benchmarks for good deals for this kind of service? I'm curious to know how you worked out it was a 'terrible deal'?



You know how public sector contracts work, right? If this was a terrible deal, all it takes is for another contractor to submit a tender for a good deal and they get the contract.

Riva10

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

That's an interesting claim. Who exactly is mates with who here? And what should the cost have been? What the benchmarks for good deals for this kind of service? I'm curious to know how you worked out it was a 'terrible deal'?



You know how public sector contracts work, right? If this was a terrible deal, all it takes is for another contractor to submit a tender for a good deal and they get the contract.

Previous goverments in the past have a very checkuered career with dodgy dealing and never with an advantage for the ordinary taxpayer. Anyone remember the electronic voting and the storage of the computers? :eek:

AndrewJRenko

Riva10 wrote: »

Previous goverments in the past have a very checkuered career with dodgy dealing and never with an advantage for the ordinary taxpayer. Anyone remember the electronic voting and the storage of the computers? :eek:

Yeah, I remember it well. It was an absolute disaster.


Does anyone remember the thousands of IT projects since then that delivered on or reasonably close to time and on schedule? No, no-one does, because they don't make headlines or get reviewed by C&AG or PAC. They just happen quietly, every day/week/month/year with little fuss or drama.


Now, what's all that got to do with radar guns?

JustARandomGuy

Because I know this forum is filled with Garda and Nanny State loving users, I'll just make these points and will not go back to this thread again as it'll be a waste of my time and keyboard to argue with any of you.

I have a family member who is an ex-officer of the Traffic Corps (now Roads Policing) Unit in Leinster and he can confirm that Sergeants did make quotas on FCPN for the Traffic Corps for any of the organised "Slow Down Days" or bank holiday weekends. They also made quotas on the number of drink driving tests.

And yes, I did have benefits associated with the family member being in the Traffic Corps. Haven't got any penalty points up until they left.

The LTI Ultralyte 20-20 range which the Gardai have been using for a good while now have been proven to be possibly inaccurate in a few different countries now and the read outs have been successfully contested in courts and proven inaccurate. Gardai often do not follow the guidelines associated with the measurements such as not using a tripod - This device is not meant to be operated by hand.

Link to a BBC documentary: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N25ybu2y2aA

Good day.